How corrupt is the human heart?

[garee]

Ephesians 4
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

I look at the word perfect as complete, in and of Christ's work, and not without sin as sinless perfection .It will be complete when we receive our newly created bodies, after we shed these bodies of death. What we are is not what we will be.

It’s how we look at the faith of Christ that works in us as new creatures . He makes or creates us complete..

In the beginning of the chapter that defines faith as a work ,He sets the standard as to whose work of faith it is that does the perfecting..

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of (coming from) our "Lord Jesus Christ", the Lord of glory, with respect of (coming from)persons.

The conclusion if we disregard it.

Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

If we do not obey the commandment not to have the faith of Christ , of God by faith in respect to others or our own self in verse 7. It informs us we have committed blasphemy.This is to attribute the work of one to another.

Abraham’s faith is not imputed in respect to His own self according to the parable of him and Isaac.

He was declared righteous in respect to works but not of his own self. But by and of the faith of Christ working in him to both will and do the good pleasure of our faithful Creator, the author and finisher of our faith, as the gift of God.

Abraham our father -- was not he declared righteous out of works, having brought up Isaac his son upon the altar? dost thou see that the faith was working with his works, and out of the works the faith was perfected? and fulfilled was the Writing that is saying, `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness;' and, `Friend of God' he was called. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James2: 21

I would offer...That the faith Christ was working with Christ’s works, and out of the works, the faith of Christ was created perfect by him that we have in Him.

It’s a mystery made know, but remains a mystery, that even the angels inquire of seeing they are not subject to that mystery, not being created in the image of God.

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[Ariel82]

"

You may believe you are ok, but you are possessed by demons as believers...
We have authority in our words to bind illness to us by admiting we are ill...
The Lords prayer is old covenant and not for believers..."

Just because someone says it doesn't make it true.

I reject all the above quoted words as false teachings also.

People can be oppressed by demons but the Holy Spirit protects our hearts and bodies from possesion. People can repeat the lies and build spiritual strongholds that war against the knowledge of God, but if the have been born again...God will reveal the lies and tear down the strongholds.

Problem is, some aren't sealed by the Holy Spirit. They never believed in the True gospel message. Never died. Never were born again.

 

[garee]

Why do I have to change the way I speak to accommodate?

It is tiring.

I speak of God developing godliness in His people. We also call that righteousness.

I speak of it as our "own" in the sense our bodies our are "own" yet both body and righteousness are really God's because our bodies are His temple. Our righteousness or godliness is built on faith and wisdom that He gives.

Yes His faith and wisdom not that of our own selves lest any man boast..

 

[Ariel82]

Martin Luther: Two Kinds of Righteousness

See he calls it two types of righteousness.

 

[Ariel82]

There are two kinds of Christian righteousness, just as man’s sin is of two kinds. The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without. This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30: “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” ......

The second kind of righteousness is our proper righteousness, not because we alone work it, but because we work with that first and alien righteousness. This is that manner of life spent profitably in good works, in the first place, in slaying the flesh and crucifying the desires with respect to the self, of which we read in Gal. 5:24, “And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” In the second place, this righteousness consists in love to one’s neighbor, and in the third place, in meekness and fear towards God. The Apostle is full of references to these, as is all the rest of Scripture. He briefly summarizes everything, however, in Titus 2:12, “ In this world let us live soberly (pertaining to crucifying one’s own flesh), justly (referring to one’s neighbor), and devoutly (relating to God).”

Key points

 

[Grace777x70]

She never meant it that way. She meant it in the way of moving on and past imputed righteousness to actually walking uprightly. She never meant it as in any way apart from Christ and the Spirit in her.

That is exactly how I thought she meant it to actually mean.

We have Christ's righteousness in the new heart that is in Christ now which is not based on what we do or don't do.

His life in us when manifesting in and through us will result in walking in godliness in this present world and this is all done by His grace. Titus 3:11-12 This is what the true grace of God teaches us.

The true Christian life is an endless adventure with the Lord.

 

[bravethea]

Hopelessly corrupt by Gods standards.

Yet, Hopefully Saved by His as well.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That is exactly how I thought she meant it to actually mean.

We have Christ's righteousness in the new heart that is in Christ now which is not based on what we do or don't do.

His life in us when manifesting in and through us will result in walking in godliness in this present world and this is all done by His grace. Titus 3:11-12 This is what the true grace of God teaches us.

The true Christian life is an endless adventure with the Lord.

If you thought that to be what she meant then why did you say you were shocked by her words?
That was very good how Luther described it, Ariel! Thanks.

 

[Grace777x70]

Martin Luther: Two Kinds of Righteousness

See he calls it two types of righteousness.

IMO Luther is wrong. He used the wrong terminology which can result in a works-based self-righteousness mindset which we see here in CC from some people. If he would use the term godliness like Paul did - then it would not be mis-leading.

There are definitely deeds of righteousness but this does not produce righteousness. It is the fruit of already being righteous to begin with.

 

[Grace777x70]

If you thought that to be what she meant then why did you say you shocked by her words?
That was very good how Luther described it, Ariel! Thanks.

Because the words used did not describe what was believed.

Paul said to use sound words when we speak so that there will be a clear sound.

For example I could say this:

I pray every day and my praying every day will get me to heaven because I am communing with the Lord...did you know that?

 

[Grace777x70]

Hopelessly corrupt by Gods standards.

Yet, Hopefully Saved by His as well.

Well said!!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

IMO Luther is wrong. He used the wrong terminology which can result in a works-based self-righteousness mindset which we see here in CC from some people. If he would use the term godliness like Paul did - then it would not be mis-leading.

There are definitely deeds of righteousness but this does not produce righteousness. It is the fruit of already being righteous to begin with.

Godliness is righteousness and walking righteously and upright. Make no mistake, he who is righteous does what is righteous, as the apostle said. no use for arguing over words. Its Luther's intent that matters. And he speaks of walking uprightly/godly as proceeding from that imputed righteousness. Which is what you Always say, so I don't know why you would say Luther is wrong when you agree with him!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Because the words used did not describe what was believed.

Paul said to use sound words when we speak so that there will be a clear sound.

For example I could say this:

I pray every day and my praying every day will get me to heaven because I am communing with the Lord...did you know that?

She was saying it the way Luther said and meant it. She used okay words. She said "develop" which is growth and outgrowth.

 

[Grace777x70]

Godliness is righteousness and walking righteously and upright. Make no mistake, he who is righteous does what is righteous, as the apostle said. no use for arguing over words. Its Luther's intent that matters. And he speaks of walking uprightly/godly as proceeding from that imputed righteousness. Which is what you Always say, so I don't know why you would say Luther is wrong when you agree with him!

NO....it is not. Godliness within itself is not righteousness. These are 2 different things although they are related because one can come from the other.

People living a good moral life in other religions do not possess the righteousness of God and yet outwardly they would have a form of godliness like Paul said.

The understanding of righteousness in Christ is paramount to growing in Him. We do not in any form or shape of the imagination "develop our own righteousness" and we never will.

 

[Grace777x70]

She was saying it the way Luther said and meant it. She used okay words. She said "develop" which is growth and outgrowth.

"develop our own righteousness" is a million times different from having deeds of Christ's righteousness in us. This results in godly living but godly living does not create righteousness.

This is why it is so important to use sound words when we are speaking truths so that there is no room for the enemy to twist things - like some here on CC actually believe that they need to "develop their own righteousness". Where would they get some un-biblical thoughts?

Anyway...I said what I feel is important to make sure the understanding of righteousness is in Christ's righteousness alone and that it is being placed properly in our minds.

I am all for godly living in this present world...all is well....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh for gosh sakes.
I think you need to read what Luther is saying again.

 

[Ariel82]

If they have and listen to the Holy Spirit. They wouldn't have to worry about "twisting" the words of meaning meant.

It's ridiculous to always demand others to change to suit your sensiblities and not yield and understand,what they are trying to say.

You try with me, but do you try with others who are just learning to speak what God has placed in their hearts?

Be mature. Be loving. Learn to speak their language instead of demanding that they learn and SPEAK only yours.

See past your and their pride to the hurt inside. Only then can healing truly happen and hearts and relationships be mended.

 

[phil36]

Personally I don't have a problem with Luther's 'two kinds of righteousness'. That is once you understand what he is saying and means. He is not giving distinctions between law and gospel (which some assume), he is giving distinctions between 'justification and sanctification'. If you read what he says and understand what he is saying then you would realise it is agreeable with scripture itself.. and comes from scripture.

The one thing I would disagree with and so would Luther, is that we do not grow past impute righteousness we never will. If you think that then you are in the arena of 'working the law', the second kind would just be 'works righteousness' and not from the grace of imputed righteousness.

 

[Grace777x70]

Personally I don't have a problem with Luther's 'two kinds of righteousness'. That is once you understand what he is saying and means. He is not giving distinctions between law and gospel (which some assume), he is giving distinctions between 'justification and sanctification'. If you read what he says and understand what he is saying then you would realise it is agreeable with scripture itself.. and comes from scripture.

The one thing I would disagree with and so would Luther, is that we do not grow past impute righteousness we never will. If you think that then you are in the arena of 'working the law', the second kind would just be 'works righteousness' and not from the grace of imputed righteousness.

I agree Phil....what I have high-lighted in brown above is the crux of the matter.

If Luther would have used the terminology showing the difference between righteousness which is Christ's alone and sanctification or the setting apart of our behavior then it would have been clearer and there would have been no possibility of confusing the 2 truths.

It helps if we keep to using actual biblical terminology when discussing these types of things so that we don't get them all mixed up and we are all talking from a common base.

Of course when talking in our everyday interaction with people out in the world we can use other types of terminology that would be more meaningful to those we are talking to at the time.

We also have the ability to frame other words around what we say in order to make it clear in their own way of thinking. This internet does not provide that kind of interaction - well I suppose one could Skype.....that would work....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

He takes us on. We do actually begin to walk uprightly. I guess you could argue for another 5 years that we never have to actually do and practice righteousness and that we never have to actually deny our life of self seeking, self honoring, pride.