How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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Jan 21, 2013
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Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#2
what if i give you a ticket to see a concert,

but you don't accept it; you throw it away.

then when you go to the venue without your ticket - what will you say to the gatekeeper?
won't he send you away without a ticket?
 
Jan 21, 2013
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#3
How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice ! 2


Now some will say, they die in their sins because they did not believe ? That does not matter, that just shows they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Which means, if they would have been of His Sheep that He died for as it is testified here Jn 10:15

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Then they would have believed !

But again, that's no excuse, because unbelief is part of the consequences of sin in the first place, wherein when man sinned He concluded them in Unbelief or Disobedience Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word concluded is key here, its the greek word sugkleivw:

to shut up together, enclose of a shoal of fishes in a net

to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

It means to imprison.

So while we are in unbelief, its a token of still being imprisoned for our crimes against God.

So to punish again men for their sins because they are in unbelief, is saying they are still being punished or imprisoned for their same crimes. So for God to punish those again that Christ died for their crimes, for their unbelief, its still a perversion of His Own Justice because He is punishing them for remaining under the very tokens of His displeasure that consigned them to prison in the first place. Now that God's Law and Justice has been satisfied for those He died for, the tokens of His displeasure ,imprisoned in unbelief, must be done away with , because no more sins are charged against them !
 
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
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#4
what if i give you a ticket to see a concert,

but you don't accept it; you throw it away.

then when you go to the venue without your ticket - what will you say to the gatekeeper?
won't he send you away without a ticket?
I see no comparison. Do you understand that post ? I do not think you did, so please rehearse with me each point I made for your clarification !
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,845
5,702
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#5
what if you're naked, and i give you a coat, but you don't wear it -
won't you still be cold when the night comes?

if i tell you the name of the horse that will win the race, but you don't place a bet -
you won't collect any winnings.

so, too if anyone rejects Christ - how can they claim an inheritance?
 
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#6
what if you're naked, and i give you a coat, but you don't wear it -
won't you still be cold when the night comes?

if i tell you the name of the horse that will win the race, but you don't place a bet -
you won't collect any winnings.

so, too if anyone rejects Christ - how can they claim an inheritance?
I see no comparison. Do you understand that post ? I do not think you did, so please rehearse with me each point I made for your clarification !
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
41,172
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#7
what if i give you a ticket to see a concert,

but you don't accept it; you throw it away.

then when you go to the venue without your ticket - what will you say to the gatekeeper?
won't he send you away without a ticket?
very simple analogy, yet lays out a good point.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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#8
How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice ! 2


Now some will say, they die in their sins because they did not believe ? That does not matter, that just shows they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Which means, if they would have been of His Sheep that He died for as it is testified here Jn 10:15

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Then they would have believed !

But again, that's no excuse, because unbelief is part of the consequences of sin in the first place, wherein when man sinned He concluded them in Unbelief or Disobedience Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word concluded is key here, its the greek word sugkleivw:

to shut up together, enclose of a shoal of fishes in a net

to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

It means to imprison.

So while we are in unbelief, its a token of still being imprisoned for our crimes against God.

So to punish again men for their sins because they are in unbelief, is saying they are still being punished or imprisoned for their same crimes. So for God to punish those again that Christ died for their crimes, for their unbelief, its still a perversion of His Own Justice because He is punishing them for remaining under the very tokens of His displeasure that consigned them to prison in the first place. Now that God's Law and Justice has been satisfied for those He died for, the tokens of His displeasure ,imprisoned in unbelief, must be done away with , because no more sins are charged against them !
That is why daily repentance is a necessity because while in the flesh the flesh continues to sin by nature. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
27,611
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#9
The extent of the invitation to salvation is to all...whosoever.
If Christ did not die for all then the invitation seems bogus.
Enlighten me.
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#10
The extent of the invitation to salvation is to all...whosoever.
If Christ did not die for all then the invitation seems bogus.
Enlighten me.
WRONG... God did not say ALL are called and few are chosen.... God said MANY are called few are chosen. Crossy some people is not given to Christ. And if you think God is unfair not to call ALL! Then you do not know God. Millions of people came into the world and died without EVER hearing the Name Jesus..... What happened to them? Were they EVER called? NOPE... so Again Crossnote you are not in Truth.

Crossy they will be judged by God and plenty of them witll enter into the Kingdom on judgment day. And MANY that calls Jesus Lord will be sent to hell.... If you do not know this, I can give you the Scripture to prove this. But then, you should know this.

Crossy when Jesus prayed, did He pray for the World, or those God gave Him and the ones that will be lieve in this.... Be PERFECT! ?????
 

phil112

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2014
3,885
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#11
WRONG... God did not say ALL are called and few are chosen.... God said MANY are called few are chosen. Crossy some people is not given to Christ. And if you think God is unfair not to call ALL! Then you do not know God. Millions of people came into the world and died without EVER hearing the Name Jesus..... What happened to them? Were they EVER called? NOPE... so Again Crossnote you are not in Truth.

Crossy they will be judged by God and plenty of them witll enter into the Kingdom on judgment day. And MANY that calls Jesus Lord will be sent to hell.... If you do not know this, I can give you the Scripture to prove this. But then, you should know this.

Crossy when Jesus prayed, did He pray for the World, or those God gave Him and the ones that will be lieve in this.... Be PERFECT! ?????
Personally, I would rather base doctrine on what the bible says, not what it doesn't say.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

tucksma

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2013
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#12
Personally, I would rather base doctrine on what the bible says, not what it doesn't say.
Agreed!
And Mark 16:16 clearly says some will be saved, and some not.

We actually had a class on salvation today and we did a group "verse search" for verses showing that some will not be saved.

For those who believe in everyone saved explain Galations 5: 19 - 21

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Jan 21, 2013
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#13
That is why daily repentance is a necessity because while in the flesh the flesh continues to sin by nature. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
Do you understand the OP and the point made ? Please explain ?
 
Jan 21, 2013
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#14
How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice ! 3


You see, the reason why men don't believe is because they are imprisoned in unbelief, and cannot believe, they have their minds blinded by the god of this world 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That's being imprisoned in Unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].

So you see, mans unbelief is but part of the wages of sin Rom 6:23, Hence those Christ died for must in the Justice of God be given Faith/Obedience, this is a token of them having had God's Law and Justice satisfied for all their sins by the Blood of Christ, that they have been redeemed from the penalty of sin, which unbelief is.

See forgiveness of sins, which Christ's blood effects , its the word Aphesis and means:

release from bondage or imprisonment
forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Now understand, Forgiveness means the remission of the penalty of sin, which one consequence is imprisonment into unbelief or disobedience, so those whom Christ died for must be released from the imprisonment of unbelief !

So those whom Christ died for and did away with the penalty of their sins, which unbelief is a symptom of, it is given to them to believe on Christ as a matter of Justice Satisfied Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Notice the word given here is the greek word Charizomai:

to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent
to grant forgiveness, to pardon
to give graciously, give freely, bestow to forgive graciously to restore one to another
to preserve for one a person in peril

So the believing is evidence of having been forgiven by the Blood of Christ, it did for you satisfy the penalty demands of God's Law and Justice for your crimes.

Also notice that believing is given ON BEHALF OF CHRIST, For His Sake, not for the sake of the one believing, but its God's way of proving that He accepted His Son's Bloody Sacrifice as an Payment for their sins, Its the Father's rewarding His Son for His Work, that it was not in vain, for believers are Christ's Reward from the Law and Justice of His Father, for His Successful Work !

Isa 43:25

I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

And its given to believe on Him, for His Name Sake !

So, again, If one for whom Christ died, dies in unbelief in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Then God hath perverted Justice, which all whom falsely teach that Christ's Death was for all mankind without exception , are charging Him with !
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,845
5,702
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#15
They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.
what if you are put in jail for drunk driving, and you serve your time, then when you are released, you go and drive intoxicated again? aren't you still guilty? this isn't 'double jeopardy' but continual lawbreaking.

and if the judge tells you your jail time will be suspended if you attend rehab, but you refuse it, you are justly sentenced, because you did not accept the judge's mercy.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,110
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#16
.......(seems to be a lot of that "false teachers" thing going around, sure enough).........

John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1st Timothy 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 .) Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 .) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 .) Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

(let's not throw around charges of "false teachings/false teachers" when you are subject to being charged thusly.....it's that "glass house" thing)
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#17
.......(seems to be a lot of that "false teachers" thing going around, sure enough).........

John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1st Timothy 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 .) Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 .) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 .) Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

(let's not throw around charges of "false teachings/false teachers" when you are subject to being charged thusly.....it's that "glass house" thing)
What I like about John 3:16 is the aorist tense verb that is used and what it meant to a 1st century Koine Greek speaking person... (is having) everlasting life. The aorist tense states and points to the following truth...

A past action with present continuing results. I was saved in the 70's, I am saved right now and I am continuing to be saved into the future. What a lot of people fail to recognize is that when I/we exercise faith into Jesus, and at that particular moment, the PERFECT FAITH of Christ saved me/us, and continues to save me/us. It is His faith, not my own that saves me/us.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,283
162
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#18
what if you're naked, and i give you a coat, but you don't wear it -
won't you still be cold when the night comes?

if i tell you the name of the horse that will win the race, but you don't place a bet -
you won't collect any winnings.

so, too if anyone rejects Christ - how can they claim an inheritance?
They call it universal salvation.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,283
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#19
There are those who believe that even Satan will be saved.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
41,172
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#20
There are those who believe that even Satan will be saved.
Not me...his destiny is the lake of fire where he will learn the terms snap, crackle and pop and unless he has (SON) block 50 million will slow roast forever as he chose his path. Sorry to say though (not) that NOBODY GONNA USURP THE KING JESUS!