How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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Jan 21, 2013
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You strain to comprehend how a man living in the darkness of his unregenerate soul can come to believe in the living God through the gospel. LIGHT! It takes the light of the glorious gospel through preaching to penetrate the soul and reach into the man's sin darkened heart. There in the heart is where sinful man can reject that light or believe it. In the heart is where an unjustified man believes unto the righteousness of God by faith. The light that comes from the word of the gospel is what brings conviction of sin and faith into that darkened heart so that man can believe and be justified and washed clean from all sin by the blood of the Lamb. This is the gospel we have been given as a ministry of mercy and reconciliation to preach in all the world to seek out and save the lost.
You quoted the post then evaded my points, could you please review the points I made as I explained them ?
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Made alive when dead in Sin !


Gospel Truths of the Gospel of God will never be understood and embraced by the antichrist religionist, such as this one, That the Chosen of God in Christ Eph 1:4, that all of them were quickened or made Alive together with Christ in the Divine Purpose of God, His Reckoning, even when they were dead in sin, so it is by Grace they were saved Eph 2:5-6

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Vs 6 here is True of the Church of God, even when individually we are born into this world dead in sin, and by nature, children of wrath as others Eph 2:3 !

In Eph 2:5, what is meant by " (by grace ye are saved )" It means they are were individually in Christ legally saved from the penalty of their sins and the power of death because of their sins ! Death reigned briefly over them in Christ Rom 6:9

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead[and the Church with Him] dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him[and His Church, His Body].

The whole Church of God was legally saved from the Penalty of sin and its Power to condemn, because in the Purpose and Reckoning of God we were raised up together with Christ, when He was raised for Our Justification from sin Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for[because of ] our justification.

This being raised again from the dead was as He was the Head and Representative of His Body the Church, those whom offences He had been delivered for as Head and Represenative !

So when He was quickened from the dead 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The word for quickened here which denotes Christ Resurrection is the same greek word used inEph 2:5 zōopoieō and means:

II.to cause to live, make alive, give life,B.to restore to life

So when the Spirit quickened Christ from the Dead 1 Pet 3:18 so were we raised up together with Him[Eph 2:5-6] from the dead if He died for Us !

So, we were collectively made alive in Christ and seated in the Heavenlies, even while we enter into this world dead in trespasses and sins, and our by nature children of wrath even as others, so its by Grace we were saved !936
 

Jda016

Senior Member
Feb 19, 2014
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I believe we are dead in our sins in that there is nothing we can do to obtain salvation for ourselves. However I do not think this means that we are so dead that when a lie preserver is thrown to us that we can not grab a hold of it and be saved from drowning.

God's gift of salvation is offered to all and whoever believes, trusts, and follows Christ is saved.

In Numbers 21, God sent poisonous serpents through Israel's camp because of their rebellion. Anyone bitten was going to die. But anyone who drew their face to look upon the staff that God told Moses to make was saved from death. God had already given them eyes to see so it was a simple choice to look upon the staff.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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I believe we are dead in our sins in that there is nothing we can do to obtain salvation for ourselves. However I do not think this means that we are so dead that when a lie preserver is thrown to us that we can not grab a hold of it and be saved from drowning.

God's gift of salvation is offered to all and whoever believes, trusts, and follows Christ is saved.

In Numbers 21, God sent poisonous serpents through Israel's camp because of their rebellion. Anyone bitten was going to die. But anyone who drew their face to look upon the staff that God told Moses to make was saved from death. God had already given them eyes to see so it was a simple choice to look upon the staff.

^ Well, not to argue (like we said), being unable to choose God isn't a natural inability, it's a moral inability. Jonathan Edwards explains this with a man who sits in a comfy chair. His natural ability may allow him to get up, but his moral inability prevents him. No matter how much you tell him to get up, he is too comfortable to listen. Man is dead in sin, he does not seek God, so there is no chance for him to look for God's help.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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^ Well, not to argue (like we said), being unable to choose God isn't a natural inability, it's a moral inability. Jonathan Edwards explains this with a man who sits in a comfy chair. His natural ability may allow him to get up, but his moral inability prevents him. No matter how much you tell him to get up, he is too comfortable to listen. Man is dead in sin, he does not seek God, so there is no chance for him to look for God's help.
^^ sorry wrong analogy, but it still works lol

"To give some instances of this moral Inability.-- A woman of great honour and chastity may have a moral Inability to prostitute herself to her slave. A child of great love and duty to his parents, may be thus unable to kill his father. A very lascivious man, in case of certain opportunities and temptations, and in the absence of such and such restraints, may be unable to forbear gratifying his lust. A drunkard, under such and such circumstances, may be unable to forbear taking strong drink. A very malicious man may be unable to exert benevolent acts to an enemy, or to desire his prosperity; yea, some may be so under the power of a vile disposition, that they may be unable to love those who are most worthy of their esteem and affection. A strong habit of virtue, and a great degree of holiness, may cause a moral Inability to love wickedness in general, and may render a man unable to take complacence in wicked persons or things; or to choose a wicked in preference to a virtuous life. And on the other hand, a great degree of habitual wickedness may lay a man under an Inability to love and choose holiness; and render him utterly unable to love an infinitely holy Being, or to choose and cleave to him as his chief good." - Freedom of the will by Jonathan Edwards
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.
This only proves you have not learned Christ, so you promote your own doctrine.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
 
Jan 21, 2013
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This only proves you have not learned Christ, so you promote your own doctrine.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
You quote some of what I posted and then evaded the points made. Please rehearse and explain the points I made as I made them please, so I can see that you understood it as I did.
 
Jan 21, 2013
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who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will


This something to know about the decretive Will of God Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This Will of God is Supreme over all, for by it He willed the things and acts that go against His preceptive will, His moral will, He decreed the wicked acts of all men, even everything that cometh to past, rape of women, molestation of children, He decreed all evil, all things are according to His Predestinated Will !937
 
Mar 28, 2014
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You quote some of what I posted and then evaded the points made. Please rehearse and explain the points I made as I made them please, so I can see that you understood it as I did.
This is how we came to know the Lord...
Romans 2:4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

This is where we are...
Romans 11: [SUP]17 [/SUP]And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.




This is how we should pattern our lives
Titus 3
3 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Our commission
1 Cor 1

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Our ministry

2 Cor 5

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
 

Hoffco

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2013
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Both sides of the truth are true. If you all would stop making the Bible fight it self and let it be whole, you would see the whole truth. By human logic you both destroy the wholeness of the Word of God. Each of you read too much into your set of verses; Please only take the verse as far as the context will allow you. stop reading into the texts what is not allowed by the text or context. An example of this is Jh. 3:16. Both sides twist it to say what they want. Look at the Greek of the text, it is,"SHOULD" not , NOT, "SHALL" not . the verb is the subjunctive not the indicative. SO, it is not a fact, it is a possibility. And "WORLD" is not the "ELECT" but ALL SINNERS. And v.21 tells us that only sinners who are Born of God, "in God", can truly believe, which means to repent, trust and obey God, is the gift of God. So, intellectual faith does not save, it is ,Repentance faith and holiness that saves, from mans side; But. from God's side, it is the New birth that saves. So, sal. is by GRACE, thru FAITH, unto GOOD WORKS. Love to all. Hoffco
 
May 2, 2014
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Do you understand the post ? Please rehearse it with me and explain the logic I used to prove my point even though you disagree !
Yes, I understand the post. The problem is that you are looking at Penal atonement. Penal atonement is fraught with error. You said if Christ died to satisfy Gods Law and justice and people are made liable for them against that's unjust. Let me suggest that Jesus didn't die to satisfy God's wrath and justice. He died as a ransom to reclaim mankind from Satan. The Scriptures say over and over that God will forgive sins. If Jesus paid for anyone's sins then there is nothing to forgive. You can't both pay and forgive the same debt, the two are mutually exclusive. Either a debt is paid or forgiven. There is nothing in Scripture that says God requires payment for sins. However, the Scriptures are replete with statements about God forgiving sins. The Penal model of the Atonement is a product of the Reformation.
 
May 2, 2014
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who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will


This something to know about the decretive Will of God Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This Will of God is Supreme over all, for by it He willed the things and acts that go against His preceptive will, His moral will, He decreed the wicked acts of all men, even everything that cometh to past, rape of women, molestation of children, He decreed all evil, all things are according to His Predestinated Will !937

That's not what the passage is talking about.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice ! 2


Now some will say, they die in their sins because they did not believe ? That does not matter, that just shows they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Which means, if they would have been of His Sheep that He died for as it is testified here Jn 10:15

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Then they would have believed !

But again, that's no excuse, because unbelief is part of the consequences of sin in the first place, wherein when man sinned He concluded them in Unbelief or Disobedience Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word concluded is key here, its the greek word sugkleivw:

to shut up together, enclose of a shoal of fishes in a net

to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

It means to imprison.

So while we are in unbelief, its a token of still being imprisoned for our crimes against God.

So to punish again men for their sins because they are in unbelief, is saying they are still being punished or imprisoned for their same crimes. So for God to punish those again that Christ died for their crimes, for their unbelief, its still a perversion of His Own Justice because He is punishing them for remaining under the very tokens of His displeasure that consigned them to prison in the first place. Now that God's Law and Justice has been satisfied for those He died for, the tokens of His displeasure ,imprisoned in unbelief, must be done away with , because no more sins are charged against them !
God concluded all in unbelief (Jews and Gentile) So all shall be able to come to Christ. The wages of sin is still death so I don't know what punishment you are talking about. God sent the gospel to be preached through out the world, the word gives life to the hearers, those who believe in him shall have everlasting life, those who don't will die in their sins.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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I believe we are dead in our sins in that there is nothing we can do to obtain salvation for ourselves. However I do not think this means that we are so dead that when a lie preserver is thrown to us that we can not grab a hold of it and be saved from drowning.

God's gift of salvation is offered to all and whoever believes, trusts, and follows Christ is saved.

In Numbers 21, God sent poisonous serpents through Israel's camp because of their rebellion. Anyone bitten was going to die. But anyone who drew their face to look upon the staff that God told Moses to make was saved from death. God had already given them eyes to see so it was a simple choice to look upon the staff.
If you are a believer you were dead in sin but the goodness of God leads us to repentance...
Rom 10
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will


This something to know about the decretive Will of God Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This Will of God is Supreme over all, for by it He willed the things and acts that go against His preceptive will, His moral will, He decreed the wicked acts of all men, even everything that cometh to past, rape of women, molestation of children, He decreed all evil, all things are according to His Predestinated Will !937
Are you saying God is evil? So you now blame God for your evil?...I give up this battle to God I will no longer debate with you. Let God be true and every man a liar.
[h=2]Full Definition of DECREE[/h]1
: an order usually having the force of law

2
a : a religious ordinance enacted by council or titular head
b : a foreordaining will
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,955
30
0
Both sides of the truth are true. If you all would stop making the Bible fight it self and let it be whole, you would see the whole truth. By human logic you both destroy the wholeness of the Word of God. Each of you read too much into your set of verses; Please only take the verse as far as the context will allow you. stop reading into the texts what is not allowed by the text or context. An example of this is Jh. 3:16. Both sides twist it to say what they want. Look at the Greek of the text, it is,"SHOULD" not , NOT, "SHALL" not . the verb is the subjunctive not the indicative. SO, it is not a fact, it is a possibility. And "WORLD" is not the "ELECT" but ALL SINNERS. And v.21 tells us that only sinners who are Born of God, "in God", can truly believe, which means to repent, trust and obey God, is the gift of God. So, intellectual faith does not save, it is ,Repentance faith and holiness that saves, from mans side; But. from God's side, it is the New birth that saves. So, sal. is by GRACE, thru FAITH, unto GOOD WORKS. Love to all. Hoffco
Brother Hoffco, please study it! It's in the bible. There is no truth to both sides, there is only one truth, matter of fact it's in the bible. Not to come off rude, but in this post you have shown me that you don't know what you are saying. It's not human logic, would you guys stop that! When people keep saying it's something of man, it shows me their lack of understanding it.

Love to you bro.
 
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Jda016

Senior Member
Feb 19, 2014
740
10
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Are you saying God is evil? So you now blame God for your evil?...I give up this battle to God I will no longer debate with you. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Full Definition of DECREE

1
: an order usually having the force of law

2
a : a religious ordinance enacted by council or titular head
b : a foreordaining will
Well that is hyper Calvinism for ya.

God desires all men to be saved, but he doesn't really he actually picks and chooses.

God hates evil and calls people everywhere to repent, but he actually causes evil and won't allow people to repent.

All prayer is meaningless, according to hyper Calvinism, as God will get his way anyway. All evangelism is meaningless, because the people he wants saved will get that way no matter what we do. No one can actually be obedient or disobedient they are just pre-programmed to do what God wants. Etc etc etc.

it is so full of absolute contradictions and logical absurdities that anyone reading the Bible openly and honest would never come to such conclusions on their own.

It is a vile doctrine of man. Not God.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,955
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Well that is hyper Calvinism for ya.

God desires all men to be saved, but he doesn't really he actually picks and chooses.

God hates evil and calls people everywhere to repent, but he actually causes evil and won't allow people to repent.

All prayer is meaningless, according to hyper Calvinism, as God will get his way anyway. All evangelism is meaningless, because the people he wants saved will get that way no matter what we do. No one can actually be obedient or disobedient they are just pre-programmed to do what God wants. Etc etc etc.

it is so full of absolute contradictions and logical absurdities that anyone reading the Bible openly and honest would never come to such conclusions on their own.

It is a vile doctrine of man. Not God.
Hyper-calvinism is heretical! It's a dangerous religion.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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The extent of the invitation to salvation is to all...whosoever.
If Christ did not die for all then the invitation seems bogus.
Enlighten me.
Biblically, Christ died for the believing only, not everyone...or else everyone is saved which is not true.

All are called to repent, but Christ's atonement only reaches those who believes...
 
Dec 9, 2013
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Biblically, Christ died for the believing only, not everyone...or else everyone is saved which is not true.

All are called to repent, but Christ's atonement only reaches those who believes...
Here is a response an old pastor of mine said....

What if no one believed.... would Christs atonement accomplish nothing then?