How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Dose, (not many agree with me here), Christ came for a specific group of people to save, His sheep. Not only does God give them life, but also draws them to believe, thus accepting Christ's atonement, then Christ keeps them persevered to the end. There is no "if no one believed" then... :)
Never the less, Father is righteous and fair to all, and is why the invitation is to all, and does draw all to make one last final choice and that is to beleive or not to beleive, consciously knowing their choice, and when this old world is folded up, there will be no excuse for mankind what so ever
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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I get a lot of grief for saying this..

but would you admit based on this post that God then gives up some of his sovereignty in order for us to have free-choice?
God is love and true love gives free choice otherwise one and all are robots.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Absolutely not. You don't think that God knows what choice we are going to make before we make it? Do you think that God was shocked when Adam ate the fruit? He knew He would and had already determined that He Himself would become a man to redeem man. Was God shocked and dismayed when Lucifer rebelled against Him?
No, Kerry not at all, Father rich in Love and Mercy foresaw all, and brought in the final plan for all to be saved by his Mercy to all through Son to be as one before the fall, alive in Spirit and truth through the resurrected Christ
Flesh nature born after and as Son's of the first Adam, needing the second Adam, Christ Jesus alone to depend on as Christ only depended on Father
Thanks Brother
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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No, he's the opposite. Believes that Christ died only for those who believe, not everybody. His death accomplished the salvation of those who believe only, not the whole world.
Seeking to be clear on what you say here, are you saying if one chooses not to beleive, consciously knowing what they chose, that God is going to save them anyway?
Just want clarity please?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Anyone who believes in universalism (that all people everywhere are saved) has to blatantly reject the words of Jesus and the apostles. There are so many scriptures against universalism that it has no legs to even stand on.

Only through the exclusivity of Christ is there any salvation.
Therefore all that is left then is to believe or not to beleive, truth or error? I mean that is all Christ never died for is belief, last free choice and God knows who are his and who are not yes?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Haha yes I guess it has, not intentionally, just keeps coming up in posts.

Good thing patience is one of my virtues, I will keep making my point, though no one seems to budge.

The term "sovereign" seems to be the issue.

I don't like the king analogy because a king is not claiming to be the creator of not only all the subjects but of the entire realm and universe.

When dealing with a being that supposedly is timeless and omnipotent and omnipresent, who created every atom in the universe and set the laws of nature in motion, the standard of sovereignty is extremely high is it not?

The biblical concept of God implies that not a proton nor electron will move unless guided by Gods hand, right?
That to me is ultimate sovereignty and control over creation.

The question is does God give up some of this control to free will or chance or satan?
If he does, then by definition he is no longer "divinely sovereign". He may still be sovereign in the sense of dominion and authority, also He still has power to take back complete control.

That last part is key, as an omnipotent being He has to be responsible for every action in the universe.
Nothing occurs that He does not want by definition:
Either He has complete control thus what He wills happens.
Or
He gives up control but allows things to happen. Yet by voluntarily allowing it, that is what He wants, otherwise He would stop it by taking back control.

So though through free-choice man may be responsible for their actions, God by definition, is ultimately responsible for everything that ever takes place within His creation. Either directly or indirectly by allowing it.
The free choice does nothing more that show true love from the creator, who is sovereign always, and forever
Mercy one has been given, Mercy shall one give or not?
True love is not true if man does not have free choice, period
Toady is the day to respond to this Love of God given through Son and come alive in Spirit and truth with humility, God grace being sufficient for one, and shows God's sovereignty.
We are the creation, not the creator, so maybe time to respond and stop trying to create? Free choice. God is Love beyond measurement to humankind
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
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I thank you for your response.

I think the problem may be you are not thinking "macro" enough.

I actually do not dispute really anything you said. I would just add that you continue that line of thinking to its logical conclusion.

--> God gives man authority, yet maintains power to take back control at any moment, therefore indirectly causing it.
Plus, God made man and had direct control over dna and brain makeup which drives how man would use the given authority.

--> God is commander in chief, if a sergeant disobeys a command and the war is lost, he will be responsible for his actions. However, the commander-in-chief will bear the ultimate responsibility for losing the war.
The war is won already through Son, all that is left is for those that choose to beleive God or not:

John 19:28 [ It Is Finished ] After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!”
John 19:29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.
John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
 
Apr 18, 2013
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what if i give you a ticket to see a concert,

but you don't accept it; you throw it away.

then when you go to the venue without your ticket - what will you say to the gatekeeper?
won't he send you away without a ticket?
I don't think your totally on the same page as svedbygrace. Obviously it's our choice whether or not we take God's free gift of salvation. If we don't then yes we know what happens and where we will go. Which is what I believe your talking about. svedbygrace is talking more about our sins being covered by the blood of Jesus. Jesus died for our sins already, justice was served when Jesus died on the cross. The saved are now righteous in God's eyes. God would be unjust to make anyone re-pay for sins that have already been paid for. This is telling people your free, your sins can't hang over you unless you let them. The blood of bulls and goats in the old testament you would have to keep taking their lives to keep covering any new sins. The blood of Jesus is much higher than the blood of bulls and goats. In him we are covered for good. He died only one time and that's all we need. When God looks at us now he sees the righteousness of Jesus on us. Your either saved or your not. Just like your either righteousness or your not. There is no in-between, even if you feel like your failing or your sinning. Your emotional state doesn't change God's view of you.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
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- Who allowed the Fall?

-So our free-will given to us can't change a pre-determined future? That is essentially saying God is still in total control, our choices are simply part of His plan, thus He really doesn't give up any of His sovereignty.

Which is it, does God give us free-choice or not?
Free choice is yours and all people to respond to God in god's Mercy to all and thusd in response gives Mercy to all, and if not, then that one received Mercy in vain. to each their own, knowing personally God just loves us all, and today is the day

Psalm 100:4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, And into His courts with praise. Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
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I want you to ask two personal questions.

Have you read the institutes?

And have you read the bible concerning the doctrines of grace in this view?

You can call Calvin names. disagree with the theology, and falsely accuse him of something...That's you! But when you call it a theory, just note - it's named after him because he preached it, not invent it.
Man is so wise in unrighteous mammon isn't he. Did not the Pharisees and religious leaders of Christ day do this type of unrighteousness? Luke 16, does a good job in explaining this to us all, are also guilty of the same
 
Feb 21, 2014
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The saved are now righteous in God's eyes. God would be unjust to make anyone re-pay for sins that have already been paid for....
Ms. GraceRevelation:

This is quite a profound reflection that you make; there has been a lot of theological discussion over the centuries on this point, summed up in the hymnwriter's lines:

"Payment God will not twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again at mine."

Blessings.
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Natural man rejects God's indictment of him !

The natural man does not agree with God's Word on his total depravity and his naturally hard evil heart by nature. One of the Key Doctrines of the Gospel of the Grace of God is what is called the T in TULIP, Total Depravity, which informs us of the natural mans plight , even his inability to do any good thing towards God, and hence, one of the reasons for God's Sovereign Grace, Paul describes the plight of the natural man in Rom 3:10-18

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
And Jeremiah describes the natural heart of mankind Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Also this is quite serious, because the word desperately is the hebrew word 'anash which means:

i.
to be incurable

ii.
to be sick

iii.
desperate, incurable, desperately wicked, woeful, very sick (pass participle) (metaph.)


B.
(Niphal) to be sick

That it is incurable means that it is not subject to change

And Jer 17:9 is stating no more about the condition of the human heart by nature than was stated here centuries before Gen 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The natural man does not believe this statement about the heart of man !

And this condition of our heart by nature is irreparable, its incorrigible, and mans heart in this condition cannot perform repentance towards God Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Impenitent heart literally means "I.admitting no change of mind" its incapable of Repentance Toward God as exhorted here Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

The natural heart of man is not able to respond favorably to this God's Command Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The natural heart of man we all have by nature cannot repent or change. Man by nature when it comes to a Godward reform is without any good dispositions towards Him Rom 3:12, and not able to make any God Honoring amendment of life towards God, we are hopelessly evil [by nature], and this truth is extremely distasteful to the natural man and the pride of his heart,but its a necessary Truth in the Gospel of God !938
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
48
I must clarify, I do not reject a God who predestines multitudes to eternal torment, I do not think this God exists.

If this God does exist, who are we to question what He does or does not do? Taking a lesson from the book of Job.
Did we have any say in being born?
Did we have any say in where we were born?
Did we have any say in whether Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins?
So why should we think we have any say in where we go when we die?

Just following that line of reasoning, it seems to me calvinism is consistent with an omnipotent, sovereign God.
Yet no matter what way, one slices, dices and or cubes God, God died for all and left one last choice, and that is to either beleive or don't. And when this earth folds up all will have made their choice to believe or not, and all who have made whichever choice knew the consequence of their choice when they made it. Therefore there will be no excuse for any mankind when this age of grace is over.
Time to appreciate and believe God or perish, and know you will when you choose not to beleive, even if one masquerades as if they do believe

Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
48
I'm never sleepy enough to "read" the Institutes. However, I am quoting men who have read them and I completely trust what they say regarding the teachings of the Institutes. I have, however, read portions of the Institutes online, and also have read the biography of John Calvin. I discovered that the life of John Calvin perfectly reflects all that he taught.

I have read and studied the Bible for 40 years. I have never found any so called "doctrines of grace", as they are defined by Calvinism, in the Bible...from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21.

Calvinism is a theology that was developed by John Calvin in the 1500s. He presented this theology in his Institutes of Christian Religion. It is also called TULIP theology. Calvin himself did not use the term TULIP to describe his theology, but it is an accurate and simplified reflection of his views. John Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine and quoted him over 400 times in his Institutes. Although Calvin didn't write TULIP, every standard point of TULIP theology can be found in Calvin's Institutes.
Trust no mankind, put no confidence in the flesh, not even in self

[h=3]Philippians 3:1-11[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]All for Christ[/h]3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit,[SUP][a][/SUP] rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, [SUP]11 [/SUP]if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
48
I'm willing to go into scriptures, but I find defending the five points I feel it as inappropriate because we should not be fighting with each other on doctrinal matters.
Luke 11:34 Your eyes light up your inward being. A pure eye lets sunshine into your soul. A lustful eye shuts out the light and plunges you into darkness.

And only Father gives this light pray for Mercy over sacrifice
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
48
So then when you were first born is was not after the similitude of Adam and Eve? Are we not all when first born from the womb, are born of the flesh nature in selfishness, wanting never to die?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
48
I don't think your totally on the same page as svedbygrace. Obviously it's our choice whether or not we take God's free gift of salvation. If we don't then yes we know what happens and where we will go. Which is what I believe your talking about. svedbygrace is talking more about our sins being covered by the blood of Jesus. Jesus died for our sins already, justice was served when Jesus died on the cross. The saved are now righteous in God's eyes. God would be unjust to make anyone re-pay for sins that have already been paid for. This is telling people your free, your sins can't hang over you unless you let them. The blood of bulls and goats in the old testament you would have to keep taking their lives to keep covering any new sins. The blood of Jesus is much higher than the blood of bulls and goats. In him we are covered for good. He died only one time and that's all we need. When God looks at us now he sees the righteousness of Jesus on us. Your either saved or your not. Just like your either righteousness or your not. There is no in-between, even if you feel like your failing or your sinning. Your emotional state doesn't change God's view of you.
Yep, nothing can separate us from God's love and Mercy, my response is thank you, entering his courts daily, looking back in thanksgiving and praise, and where is sin if one is doing exactly this praising and thanking, no time to even ponder sin is there? The double edged sword to be one by God through God and for God, by believing God, 24/7
Therefore "I" die daily
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
48
Ms. GraceRevelation:

This is quite a profound reflection that you make; there has been a lot of theological discussion over the centuries on this point, summed up in the hymnwriter's lines:

"Payment God will not twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again at mine."

Blessings.
Christ is not coming back to die all over again, it is finished what Christ did is done for all that beleive see, and are free
Hebrews 5:11-6:6 pretty clear on this, praying God gives the increase to maturity here
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
48
Re: Natural man rejects God's indictment of him !

The natural man does not agree with God's Word on his total depravity and his naturally hard evil heart by nature. One of the Key Doctrines of the Gospel of the Grace of God is what is called the T in TULIP, Total Depravity, which informs us of the natural mans plight , even his inability to do any good thing towards God, and hence, one of the reasons for God's Sovereign Grace, Paul describes the plight of the natural man in Rom 3:10-18



And Jeremiah describes the natural heart of mankind Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Also this is quite serious, because the word desperately is the hebrew word 'anash which means:

i.
to be incurable

ii.
to be sick

iii.
desperate, incurable, desperately wicked, woeful, very sick (pass participle) (metaph.)


B.
(Niphal) to be sick

That it is incurable means that it is not subject to change

And Jer 17:9 is stating no more about the condition of the human heart by nature than was stated here centuries before Gen 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The natural man does not believe this statement about the heart of man !

And this condition of our heart by nature is irreparable, its incorrigible, and mans heart in this condition cannot perform repentance towards God Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Impenitent heart literally means "I.admitting no change of mind" its incapable of Repentance Toward God as exhorted here Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

The natural heart of man is not able to respond favorably to this God's Command Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The natural heart of man we all have by nature cannot repent or change. Man by nature when it comes to a Godward reform is without any good dispositions towards Him Rom 3:12, and not able to make any God Honoring amendment of life towards God, we are hopelessly evil [by nature], and this truth is extremely distasteful to the natural man and the pride of his heart,but its a necessary Truth in the Gospel of God !938
So believe God through Son it is done and receive the new Heart Father gives for ones new life and serve in Spirit and truth. which today is the only way God can be served John 4:23-24, after the cross this is shown in truth from Father to all that do believe not just say they do
 
Apr 25, 2013
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So then when you were first born is was not after the similitude of Adam and Eve? Are we not all when first born from the womb, are born of the flesh nature in selfishness, wanting never to die?
so not wanting to die is a sin?lol