How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Seeking to be clear on what you say here, are you saying if one chooses not to beleive, consciously knowing what they chose, that God is going to save them anyway?
Just want clarity please?
No brother, I believe if one chooses not to believe it's because they are totally depraved and are unable. Only God can save a man such as that through the working of the Holy Spirit. Everyone who does not believe are not going to be saved.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Never the less, Father is righteous and fair to all, and is why the invitation is to all, and does draw all to make one last final choice and that is to beleive or not to beleive, consciously knowing their choice, and when this old world is folded up, there will be no excuse for mankind what so ever
Double predestination doesn't make God unrighteous. Many people have a negative feeling about it, I did when I first heard it.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Yet Father pursues us in Love and Mercy to us all, and if we accept the wedding invitation we are deliewvered to love as Father loves, shown best through Son
John 14:1 [ The Way, the Truth, and the Life ] “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Jesus is the way out, but many will reject it. The narrow gate leads to life and few find it. I believe God blesses everyone with common grace, but blesses His elect with a studio special kind of grace. He gives mercy and grace for salvation to those whom He foreknew and predestined. In doing so, we come alive by His Spirit and repent by His grace. Those who aren't going to repent won't care. So not only is God's perfect mercy displayed, but also God's perfect justice. Not everyone has to agree with this.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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While the terms are often used interchangeably, fatalism, determinism, and predeterminism are discrete in stressing different aspects of the futility of human will or the foreordination of destiny. However, all these doctrines share common ground.
"Fatalists teach that there is a blind, impersonal force, over which no one has control—not even God—and that events are swept along by this blind, purposeless power. This is Fatalism."

Found this here --> What is fatalism? What is determinism?
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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See this is what I'm talking about...

Neither in the Westminster nor 1689 Confessions do any of the Calvinist believe babies go to hell. Plus, I see a lot of divorced scripture on that site from its context in the word, I haven't read it all so I don't know exactly if every verse needs its context check first m that's important btw.

I don't want to debate, but if you believe everyone is born pure, do you teach a child to steal? How about to lie? Then why do they do these things naturally?
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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If no one wants to agree with the doctrines of grace, or even five solas (as in other threads I have seen). Then okay disagree, I'm pretty much done with arguing about it, since it makes this topic identical to the Trinity discussions, Eschatology discussions, etc.

God bless you guys, we don't need to divide each other even more, instead bond more.
 
Apr 25, 2013
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flesh is evil,right?lol

In Gnosticism, the world of the demiurge is represented by the lower world, which is associated with matter, flesh, time and more particularly an imperfect, ephemeral world. The world of God is represented by the upper world, and is associated with the soul and perfection. The world of God is eternal and not part of the physical. It is impalpable, and time doesn't exist there. To rise to God, the Gnostic must reach the knowledge, which mixes philosophy, metaphysics, curiosity, culture, knowledge, and the secrets of history and the universe.


 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Greg, so you're saying that the flesh isn't evil?

Btw, I don't even know why you mentioned Gnosticism? Let's read the bible please.
 
Apr 25, 2013
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yup,your buddy augustine was a gnostic,hmmm
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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So I'm guessing Paul is too? :rolleyes: Because original sin is in Romans 7
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Actually Romans 5 definitely is the place to go, you will find it there. :cool:
 

Jda016

Senior Member
Feb 19, 2014
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Ok yeah I have no sense of time.

For your first point, yes it makes sense, I do dispute that God had to allow it so Adam/Eve would have "free-will".
My point is thats what God wanted, for his creation to have free-will, thus an omnipotent being allowing something without stopping it is ultimately responsible. He allowed us to sin, thus he wanted there to be sin for His ultimate plan.

For your 2nd point, I guess I am being too black and white. Yes so God could give up a very small amount of control, allowing us limited free-choice. Fair enough.
The amazing thing to me, is that though he allowed Adam and Eve to sin, in order that they might have free choice, he already put a plan into motion in order to redeem them. This is what the entire Bible is about.

Not only did he allow them to maintain free choice, he sent His own Son to pay the price for their trespass. God maintains his love by allowing them to be free and then he reinforces and even crowns his love for humankind by Sending Jesus to die in our place.

I marvel at that fact and praise God for it!
 

penknight

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2014
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What I like about John 3:16 is the aorist tense verb that is used and what it meant to a 1st century Koine Greek speaking person... (is having) everlasting life. The aorist tense states and points to the following truth...

A past action with present continuing results. I was saved in the 70's, I am saved right now and I am continuing to be saved into the future. What a lot of people fail to recognize is that when I/we exercise faith into Jesus, and at that particular moment, the PERFECT FAITH of Christ saved me/us, and continues to save me/us. It is His faith, not my own that saves me/us.
Thank you for saying this. I need to be reminded of this every so often.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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I must clarify, I do not reject a God who predestines multitudes to eternal torment, I do not think this God exists.

If this God does exist, who are we to question what He does or does not do? Taking a lesson from the book of Job.
Did we have any say in being born?
Did we have any say in where we were born?
Did we have any say in whether Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins?
So why should we think we have any say in where we go when we die?

Just following that line of reasoning, it seems to me calvinism is consistent with an omnipotent, sovereign God.
Therefor I put me in the hand of God, the creator of all, and trust Father to do with me whatever Father chooses. I just trust no ?, no doubt and if it be not with Father then okay, why? Because I trust plain and simple, it is not by works or doing any good or evil one is saved
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Father knows me, you and all, who believes Father and who does not, even if one says one does believe, my prayer is prayer for it to be true. for all will stand at the judgment seat and truth will be revealed
Loving this knowing Father is the only one good, and that is where my trust resides, deeper and deeper each day, as I die daily, anyone else care to join in to see the new life possibly?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
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Ok yeah I have no sense of time.

For your first point, yes it makes sense, I do dispute that God had to allow it so Adam/Eve would have "free-will".
My point is thats what God wanted, for his creation to have free-will, thus an omnipotent being allowing something without stopping it is ultimately responsible. He allowed us to sin, thus he wanted there to be sin for His ultimate plan.

For your 2nd point, I guess I am being too black and white. Yes so God could give up a very small amount of control, allowing us limited free-choice. Fair enough.
So dose of reality, have you made this free choice to trust God the father of Christ only?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
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so not wanting to die is a sin?lol
Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Have notihng else before me (God) speaking, that includes even me own life, you decide for yourself? We all have free choice to what truth is or is not

I see the Spiritual side, and now consider me dead to the carnal nature as God permits me to see the depth, height and length in God's love to all

Phil 3:1-11 pretty clear about this truth to die to carnal nature
Thanks for asking
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
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No brother, I believe if one chooses not to believe it's because they are totally depraved and are unable. Only God can save a man such as that through the working of the Holy Spirit. Everyone who does not believe are not going to be saved.
At Judgment will anyone have an excuse to where they will be sent?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
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Double predestination doesn't make God unrighteous. Many people have a negative feeling about it, I did when I first heard it.
I do not understand your term Double predestination? I said nothing of the sort. that i see
Originally Posted by homwardbound

Never the less, Father is righteous and fair to all, and is why the invitation is to all, and does draw all to make one last final choice and that is to beleive or not to beleive, consciously knowing their choice, and when this old world is folded up, there will be no excuse for mankind what so ever