How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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gotime

Senior Member
#521
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#521
svedbygrace said:
Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.
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I do not agree for this reason.

If Jesus death for everyone is all it takes for someone to be saved then you are right.

The reality is however is that His death only benefits those who accept it and everything that comes with it.

So Jesus dies for everyone so that everyone has a chance, but only those who obey him actually gain from His sacrifice.

Joh 15:13 No one has greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

It seems you assume that just because Jesus died for all means that all automatically are forgiven. This is not the case. Only those who accept the conditions will have mercy.

But because Jesus died for all no one will ever be able to say God was unfair, because they all could have been saved but they chose not to by not obeying all that Jesus said.

If Jesus did not open His sacrifice for all then they would have a legitimate plea of miss justice. but because Jesus died for all no one can plead any such thing.
 
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S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#522
#522
I do disagree that Jesus died for all. Simply because of the same conclusion, not everyone is saved. Not a single drop of blood will be wasted on someone who didn't believe. Jesus died for the believer, not the forever rebellious. If God's wrath was satisfied on the cross, then it must mean that He died for a group of people, and those people are the believing ones.
 
S

svedbygrace

Banned
#523
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#523
gotime said:
I do not agree for this reason.

If Jesus death for everyone is all it takes for someone to be saved then you are right.

The reality is however is that His death only benefits those who accept it and everything that comes with it.

So Jesus dies for everyone so that everyone has a chance, but only those who obey him actually gain from His sacrifice.

Joh 15:13 No one has greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

It seems you assume that just because Jesus died for all means that all automatically are forgiven. This is not the case. Only those who accept the conditions will have mercy.

But because Jesus died for all no one will ever be able to say God was unfair, because they all could have been saved but they chose not to by not obeying all that Jesus said.

If Jesus did not open His sacrifice for all then they would have a legitimate plea of miss justice. but because Jesus died for all no one can plead any such thing.
Click to expand...
Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.
 
S

svedbygrace

Banned
#524
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#524
Spokenpassage said:
I do disagree that Jesus died for all. Simply because of the same conclusion, not everyone is saved. Not a single drop of blood will be wasted on someone who didn't believe. Jesus died for the believer, not the forever rebellious. If God's wrath was satisfied on the cross, then it must mean that He died for a group of people, and those people are the believing ones.
Click to expand...
Agreed ! All those whom God's wrath for sin has been satisfied for, they are by and through that satisfaction delivered from the wages and consequences of sin, which is death Rom 6:23 therefore they are delivered from unbelief which is nothing but a consequence of spiritual death for sin, hence the end consequences for all whom have by the death and satisfaction of Christ for them been delivered from death, shall be given Faith to believe on Christ as an evidence !
 
G

gregfl

Guest
#525
#525
Spokenpassage said:
I do disagree that Jesus died for all. Simply because of the same conclusion, not everyone is saved. Not a single drop of blood will be wasted on someone who didn't believe. Jesus died for the believer, not the forever rebellious. If God's wrath was satisfied on the cross, then it must mean that He died for a group of people, and those people are the believing ones.
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if Gods wrath was satisfied on the cross?hmmmmm
spoken,i challenge you to find one verse in the bible that says that,heres a hint,you wont.why,because its not there.its one of the errors of the penal substitution theory of the atonement. study up :)
 
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doseofreality

doseofreality

Banned
#526
Dec 9, 2013
753
5
0
#526
gregfl said:
if Gods wrath was satisfied on the cross?hmmmmm
spoken,i challenge you to find one verse in the bible that says that,heres a hint,you wont.why,because its not there.its one of the errors of the penal substitution theory of the atonement. study up :)
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"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:36
 
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gregfl

Guest
#528
#528
doseofreality said:
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:36
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that verse doesnt do it,try again :)
 
doseofreality

doseofreality

Banned
#529
Dec 9, 2013
753
5
0
#529
gregfl said:
that verse doesnt do it,try again :)
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True, but it is implied.

The verse clearly states that if one goes from non-belief to belief, then the wrath of God no longer abides on them.

So either the wrath of God was satisfied on the cross for believers or the very act of "believing" satisfies God's wrath.
 
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gregfl

Guest
#530
#530
satisfy Gods wrath?hmmm

cant find any verses mentioning that,must be implied right?
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#531
#531
gregfl said:
if Gods wrath was satisfied on the cross?hmmmmm
spoken,i challenge you to find one verse in the bible that says that,heres a hint,you wont.why,because its not there.its one of the errors of the penal substitution theory of the atonement. study up :)
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Would you stop preaching another gospel. God's wrath was satisfied to those who believe (Colossians 2:14; Romans 8:1, etc). The last thing any of us needs to be is a hypocrite.
 
11Eleven-Bravo

11Eleven-Bravo

Senior Member
#532
Dec 16, 2013
174
4
18
#532
Spokenpassage said:
Would you stop preaching another gospel. God's wrath was satisfied to those who believe (Colossians 2:14; Romans 8:1, etc). The last thing any of us needs to be is a hypocrite.
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And for that matter, the last thing anyone needs is bold and brazen comments of the community making such accusations against others. Although not quite explicitly stated, the message is quite clear. No need to hurl stones, friend.
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#533
#533
11Eleven-Bravo said:
And for that matter, the last thing anyone needs is bold and brazen comments of the community making such accusations against others. Although not quite explicitly stated, the message is quite clear. No need to hurl stones, friend.
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Wrong time step in with a wrong correction. We got people calling other people gnostics, non Christians, and heretics.
 
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gregfl

Guest
#534
#534
Spokenpassage said:
Would you stop preaching another gospel. God's wrath was satisfied to those who believe (Colossians 2:14; Romans 8:1, etc). The last thing any of us needs to be is a hypocrite.
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the penal substitutionary theory of the atonement is the gospel?lol and you accuse me of preaching another gospel?hmmm
 
11Eleven-Bravo

11Eleven-Bravo

Senior Member
#535
Dec 16, 2013
174
4
18
#535
Spokenpassage said:
Wrong time step in with a wrong correction. We got people calling other people gnostics, non Christians, and heretics.
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So...your point is? Ever hear of civil discourse? It's quite effective when used intelligently. You're making accusations against others that are baseless and quite groundless.

(Matthew 7:5) You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

You and many others, myself included, need to adhere to Matthews words.
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#536
#536
gregfl said:
the penal substitutionary theory of the atonement is the gospel?lol and you accuse me of preaching another gospel?hmmm
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I'll name a few things you have openly admitted. You claim:

1. Man was not born in sin, neither born sinful, making him capable of achieving works salvation.
2. Jesus didn't die as a substitute in our place in the cross, bearing our punishment.

Those two things are incorrect. If you want to talk about theories, free will was a teaching of Pelagius.

Let me guess, you don't believe in the Trinity either?
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#537
#537
11Eleven-Bravo said:
So...your point is? Ever hear of civil discourse? It's quite effective when used intelligently. You're making accusations against others that are baseless and quite groundless.

(Matthew 7:5) You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

You and many others, myself included, need to adhere to Matthews words.
Click to expand...
My point is to correct you. Look above for the accusation I have made. I have not made myself exclusive to scripture, that's why I said the last thing we need to be is a hypocrite (not directly stating it at one person, but all).
 
G

gregfl

Guest
#538
#538
Spokenpassage said:
I'll name a few things you have openly admitted. You claim:

1. Man was not born in sin, neither born sinful, making him capable of achieving works salvation.
2. Jesus didn't die as a substitute in our place in the cross, bearing our punishment.

Those two things are incorrect. If you want to talk about theories, free will was a teaching of Pelagius.

Let me guess, you don't believe in the Trinity either?
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dont twist or add to what i say,that is dishonest,and you call yourself a christian?hmmm
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#539
#539
gregfl said:
dont twist or add to what i say,that is dishonest,and you call yourself a christian?hmmm
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So then, you do believe in original sin, and you believe Jesus died as our substitutions sacrifice?
 
G

gregfl

Guest
#540
#540
Spokenpassage said:
So then, you do believe in original sin, and you believe Jesus died as our substitutions sacrifice?
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no, i dont believe the false doctrine of original sin,is that part of the gospel too?i dont think so.i got saved in jail 25 yrs ago,do you think i was looking around for someone else to blame my sin on?lol and denying the false penal substitution theory of the atonement is not denying that Jesus died for my sins. is that any clearer for you? :)
 
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