How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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Mar 28, 2014
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newbirth



Then explain what you are saying you agree with !
So, then all are a slave to sin the moment they sin. So what are we to do with that sin? Are we unrighteous then righteous, then unrighteous again?
Or are we in and out of fellowship, if we sin?
Will anyone's (besides Christ) obedience ever be perfect?
[h=3]1 John 2:1-3[/h]King James Version (KJV)

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.


[h=3]Hebrews 7:24-26[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]24 [/SUP]But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 and God concluded all in Unbelief because of sin Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Are you seeing what you just wrote in scripture?

How many ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL ? How many all? or a few or only the elect
So all that is left is to beleive or not right?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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1 John 2:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.


Hebrews 7:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]24 [/SUP]But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Agreed, and loving we have Jesus Christ as our advocate, our inter mediator, and not for taking it for granted as an occasion to be used by ones flesh, being forgiven as the Corinthians did, take it for granted and sinned, thinking we can we are forgiven, we can, and did harm others in the process, not understanding truth in God's Mercy, that even thugh we are forgiven, it is for to appreciate God in humility and thankfulness
Thank you for your post
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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[h=3]1 John 2:14-29[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. [SUP]29 [/SUP]If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
 
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BradC

Guest
Are you seeing what you just wrote in scripture?

How many ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL ? How many all? or a few or only the elect
So all that is left is to beleive or not right?
He will not see the word ALL as pertaining to ALL sinners, only those who have been elected or chosen. It will always be a limited atonement that only applies to those who believe. He will never see the sin of the world placed upon the body of Christ on that tree and the work will only be finished to those who have been chosen. This is a spiritual blindness and stumbling block that has darkened the mind and heart that suggests that God has not called ALL men unto repentance, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The gospel is hid unto those who are lost, yet those who are lost are called unto the light through the preaching and light of the glorious gospel.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Agreed, and loving we have Jesus Christ as our advocate, our inter mediator, and not for taking it for granted as an occasion to be used by ones flesh, being forgiven as the Corinthians did, take it for granted and sinned, thinking we can we are forgiven, we can, and did harm others in the process, not understanding truth in God's Mercy, that even thugh we are forgiven, it is for to appreciate God in humility and thankfulness
Thank you for your post
So you say but John says 2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].
Saved By Grace, indeed; so true a name.
Now on the matter of free will and election, I don't see them as necessarily mutually exclusive.

Do you agree with the following (which is one attempt to solve the problem of limited vs unlimited atonement):

1) Christ's death was sufficient to pay for all the sins of all men; but
2) Christ's death actually saves only the elect.
(sufficient for all, efficient only for the elect).

Unlimited atonement is clearly indicated in John 3:16 God so loved the world that . . . ."
and in 1 John 2:2: propitiation for all.

A standard explanation for why everyone is not then saved is that in order to be saved man is required to believe: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." The price has been paid. Like you are offered a free ticket to heaven paid for by Christ, but you have to receive the ticket by faith.

I prefer to quote the verse:

for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.
In this I find a demand that one must trust Christ as the I AM, YHWH.

You claim a conclusion that we must come to. Well, if we must come to your conclusion, is it not passing strange that many do not come to that conclusion at all. Is it not possible to refuse a pardon and stay in prison? At Kadesh-Barnea in the OT in the Law, Israel was offered to enter the Land of Canaan, but they refused with a lack of faith and died in the wilderness.

However you figure it out
1) Christ did pay for the sins of the world on the cross,
2) Many end up in the Lake of Fire,
3) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

We can theorize on it until the cows come home, but those 3 facts are true.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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He will not see the word ALL as pertaining to ALL sinners, only those who have been elected or chosen. It will always be a limited atonement that only applies to those who believe. He will never see the sin of the world placed upon the body of Christ on that tree and the work will only be finished to those who have been chosen. This is a spiritual blindness and stumbling block that has darkened the mind and heart that suggests that God has not called ALL men unto repentance, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The gospel is hid unto those who are lost, yet those who are lost are called unto the light through the preaching and light of the glorious gospel.
How can all mean only the elect? Many are called, but few are chosen.

and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.


and he is the propitiation for our sins [the sins of the elect]; and not for ours only [not for the elect only],
but also for the whole world.

1 John 2:2.

You may theorize yourself into a whole; stick with what the Word says.
 
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Linda70

Guest
How can all mean only the elect? Many are called, but few are chosen.

and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.


and he is the propitiation for our sins [the sins of the elect]; and not for ours only [not for the elect only],
but also for the whole world.

1 John 2:2.

You may theorize yourself into a whole; stick with what the Word says.
I believe that BradC is speaking about 'svedbygrace' who is a 5 point hyper-calvinist.
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Saved By Grace, indeed; so true a name.
Now on the matter of free will and election, I don't see them as necessarily mutually exclusive.

Do you agree with the following (which is one attempt to solve the problem of limited vs unlimited atonement):

1) Christ's death was sufficient to pay for all the sins of all men; but
2) Christ's death actually saves only the elect.
(sufficient for all, efficient only for the elect).

Unlimited atonement is clearly indicated in John 3:16 God so loved the world that . . . ."
and in 1 John 2:2: propitiation for all.

A standard explanation for why everyone is not then saved is that in order to be saved man is required to believe: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." The price has been paid. Like you are offered a free ticket to heaven paid for by Christ, but you have to receive the ticket by faith.

I prefer to quote the verse:

for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.
In this I find a demand that one must trust Christ as the I AM, YHWH.

You claim a conclusion that we must come to. Well, if we must come to your conclusion, is it not passing strange that many do not come to that conclusion at all. Is it not possible to refuse a pardon and stay in prison? At Kadesh-Barnea in the OT in the Law, Israel was offered to enter the Land of Canaan, but they refused with a lack of faith and died in the wilderness.

However you figure it out
1) Christ did pay for the sins of the world on the cross,
2) Many end up in the Lake of Fire,
3) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

We can theorize on it until the cows come home, but those 3 facts are true.
Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.
 
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BradC

Guest
How can all mean only the elect? Many are called, but few are chosen.

and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.


and he is the propitiation for our sins [the sins of the elect]; and not for ours only [not for the elect only],
but also for the whole world.

1 John 2:2.

You may theorize yourself into a whole; stick with what the Word says.
I was addressing another poster referred to as 'He' and what 'He' believed. I believe and have the same mind as you do on the atonement, Those are great scriptures which are very clear on the subject. I have reworded my post to make it better understood.

He will not see the word ALL as pertaining to ALL sinners, BUT RATHER only to those who have been elected or chosen. FOR HIM it will always be a limited atonement that only applies to those who believe. He will never see the sin of the world placed upon the body of Christ on that tree and the work will only be finished to those who have been chosen. This is a spiritual blindness and stumbling block that has darkened the mind and heart that suggests that God has not called ALL men unto repentance, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The gospel is hid unto those who are lost, yet those who are lost are called unto the light through the preaching and light of the glorious gospel.
 
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gregfl

Guest
[h=2]The God of Plotinus is the God of Calvinism, who needs the Bible anyway?[/h]
To render the world of Ideas more acceptable to Christians, the Patristic Platonists from Justin Martyr to St. Augustine maintained that the world exists in the mind of God[1] The Catholic Encyclopedia

Most evangelical theologians work in the general Augustine tradition of Christian thought: the fourth- and fifth-century North African bishop and church father Augustine provides the general framework for their life and worldview insofar as that builds on and goes beyond what is explicitly state in Scripture. Augustine was influenced by the Neoplatonic tradition of Greek philosophy…[2] The Westminster Handbook to Evangelical Theology

As seen above, Catholics and Protestants agree Augustine was a Platonist who had a major influence of the theological traditions of Western Christianity.
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
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Sure, but in recognizing this truth we can philosophically overcome it and not be bound by the strictures of Platonism. We can recognize some of its truthfulness but not be constrained by it.

Jesus is the Way the Truth the Life. With Him we get to God the Father.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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So you say but John says 2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Agreed, yes so that by belief (Faith) in the finished work of Christ we die to self and see this new life in the resurrected Christ and possibly sin no more, yet if we do sin we have Christ as our propitiation, as we are forgiven, not to be taken for granted as I have said many times , Father reveals this to all that do want to do right, as Saul was this, even though not seeing truth, and killed many believers, God revealed to the chief of sinners, and Saul who became Paul put no confidence in his flesh as stated in Phil 3
So I see we are on the same page, do you see this as well, we both believe, and God has accepted us both, so can we both be iron to sharpen each other in love and truth?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
80
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Sure, but in recognizing this truth we can philosophically overcome it and not be bound by the strictures of Platonism. We can recognize some of its truthfulness but not be constrained by it.

Jesus is the Way the Truth the Life. With Him we get to God the Father.
Bottom line God does just love us and until we see this we fight as I am right and others are wrong, and we are offended when we feel we are not heard and fight back in retaliation. And another one is intensity of trying to be heard, that one can get lost in that. praying for us all to see that, I am now recently been made aware of that and am seeing my deceitful self wanting the center of attention, using God as the Catalyst as my Justification, and am now seeing my Paul said, that he knows nothing but Jesus Christ crucified for you, the foundation to the new life in Spirit and truth.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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[h=2]
Re: How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice ![/h]
thinking about this how does it or does it?
Could it be our wants and desires that might do this? one way or the other? Yet truly, no matter what do we or do we not have free choice whether it perverts God or not? I prefer not to pervert God's love as inj 1 cor 13:4-13
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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TULIP is the classical definition of Calvinism. Actually real Christians have disagreements on the TULIP and on election.
T = Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints

Actually election is God's Work. Our work is to believe, though belief is not a work, a resting from works.
(As the Lord Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Faith is the work which the Lord requires of us for salvation, though it is not a work, except in a rhetorical sense.

So why do people get in such a tizzy over election? The Bible says, "Whosoever believes," and it calls Christians elect.

T = Total depravity: Man is sinful by nature, nothing man does is righteous, as it is an expression of the Adamic nature. Man does not have in his menu of possibilities good works. It is not thus follow that man has no ability to believe. Neither is it necessary to call believing in Jesus a good work; belief is contrasted with works. Persons can endorse the T and believe in conditional election.

U = Unconditional Election: Election is not conditioned upon God foreseeing good works. The question here is, could it be that God chooses by foreknowledge, seeing in advance who would believe. Generally along with that POV goes the idea that by God's common grace, all men have the ability to believe in Christ.
I don't find this POV about common grace in the Bible, but it is a POV that genuine Christians may have. And I see no reason to despise a brother for holding this POV, to sneer at him, or call him a heretic. Thiessen's one Volume Systematic Theology takes this POV.

One thing is for sure, election is according to God's foreknowledge. I am not sure that I understand that.
I know that sometimes "know" is used as in Amos for entering an intimate relationship, not for objective knowledge. But I am unaware of any proof that when fore- is used, the knowledge is anything other than objective knowledge. If anyone has a Greek reference to proginosko (classical progignosko) used for intimate relationship, I would like to see the reference.

Aside from foreknowledge, I don't know of any explanation of why God should choose one and not another. Is the idea of rolling dice or flipping coins appropriate in describing God's election? The fact that God elected does add to our humility.

L = limited atonement. Scripture is clear that Christ died for all (John 3:16; 1 John 2:2).

J.O. Buswell's solution to this problem (Systematic Theology writer) is that the dispute is invalid:
1) Christ's death was sufficient for all.
2) Christ's death was efficient for only the elect (only they are actually saved in the end).

I favor the explanation that both Christ's atonement and our belief are necessary for salvation, though He paid for all men.

However, scripture (Rom 6, etc.) indicates that by the baptism of the Holy Spirit Christians were put on the cross with Christ when He died (co-crucifixion) causing the Old Man of the Christian to have been crucified.
Since only Christians who are elect are in the Body of Christ, that indicates to me at least one aspect of Christ's death is limited to the Church. He died for all, paying for all men's sins, but only Church members can say, "I have been crucified with Christ" (Gal 2:20).

I = Irresistible grace. This is the concept that when God elects a man for salvation, the grace God extends to Him results in man's salvation; the unsaved man can't stop himself from being saved on this POV.

P = perseverance of the saints (they cannot lose their salvation).

Rom 8 ends:

"
28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them who are called according to his purpose. 29
For whom he foreknew,
he also foreordained
to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30
and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and
whom he called, them he also justified: and
whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[This is like jumping off a 10 story building from which one is pushed,
10th floor: foreknew
9th: foreordained
. . .
bottom: smack! glorified.
Once you get pushed off, nothing stops before glorified.
Interestingly, believe, is not mentioned here.]



What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies; 34 who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For your sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I don't see how anyone can be a Christian without believing perseverance, as believing Christ is your Savior is essential to being a Christian. And how can you really believe that He is your Savior and then not know that you have real salvation, not just a chance to be saved?










 
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gregfl

Guest
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
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Linda70

Guest
Calvinism and its TULIP teachings are NOT the Gospel!

The Apostle Paul called "the Gospel of Christ" the "power of God unto salvation to EVERY ONE that believeth"....

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Then the Apostle Paul summed up the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: