How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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rayzor

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According to Scripture, the Physical Atmosphere and the Earth are connected as ONE physical biological environment that cannot be separated from each other, they are a contained unit including the Seas/Oceans/Waterways - above, at ground level and below.

This is clear in Genesis where God created this CONTAINED UNIT (earth, water, atmosphere) we call the earth/creation of the physical environment which your physical body is attached to.

The one and ONLY Second Coming of our Lord has MULTIPLE applications/processes/judgements/fulfillments/Promises as we are told in Scripture.

The error of pre-trib seeks to undermine and disrupt the ORDER given in Scripture.

First things FIRST - The FIRST Resurrection FIRST - After that we who are alive and remain are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Scripture cannot lie
first thing first is count the cost.
 

DavidTree

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Yes. After at least seven years, Christ comes WITH His saints. But prior to that He came FOR His saints at the Rapture. Following which will be the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven, with Christ as the divine Bridegroom and the spotless Church as His Bride. Now here are seventeen truths which should sink in:

Seventeen Truths about the Rapture

1. NO IGNORANCE, NO DESPAIRING SORROW FOR CHRISTIANS
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

2. IT IS GOD THROUGH CHRIST WHO BRINGS SOULS AND SPIRITS FROM HEAVEN
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

3. CHRIST HIMSELF ASSURES OUR RESURRECTION AND TRANSFORMATION
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [dead].

4. THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND AND REMAIN IN THE AIR FOR THE RESURRECTED SAINTS
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

5. THE LORD HIMSELF WILL TRANSFORM THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

6. TAKE COMFORT IN THE RAPTURE SINCE IT IS THE BLESSED HOPE OF BELIEVERS
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

7. NO DATE SETTING FOR THE RAPTURE SINCE IT IS IMMINENT
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

8. DIVINE JUDGMENTS (THE DAY OF THE LORD) WILL FOLLOW THE RAPTURE
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

9. FOR THE WORLD: SUDDEN DESTRUCTION PRECEDED BY A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

10. THE SAINTS WILL NOT BE UNAWARE
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

11. THE SAINTS ARE CHILDREN OF LIGHT, NOT CHILDREN OF DARKNESS
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

12. THE SAINTS ARE TO BE WATCHFUL -- THE RAPTURE CAN OCCUR AT ANY MOMENT
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

13. THE UNSAVED WILL SLEEP AND BE DRUNK WHEN JUDGMENT COMES
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

14. FAITH, LOVE, HOPE, SALVATION: THINGS NECESSARY FOR BELIEVERS
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

15. GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH: THE KEY DIFFERENCE FROM THE SECOND COMING
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

16. CHRISTIANS LIVE WITH CHRIST ETERNALLY WHETHER ALIVE OR DEAD
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

17. COMFORT FOR OURSELVES, EDIFICATION FOR OTHERS
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
BEAUTIFUL 17 Points of TRUTH and FREEDOM and FAITH - Encouraging and love it

Now just dump the intro - "After seven years Christ comes with the Saints'
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him
By the Word of the Lord = The Saints are coming with the Lord at His Second Coming for the First Resurrection and After that -the Rapture.
This is why the meeting in the air takes place FIRST at His Second Coming - then the Lord and all the Saints with Him descend for Judgement upon the ungodly.
Many things take place at our Lord's Second Coming - the FIRST is the FIRST Resurrection then the Rapture and then many more things that are written.
Have you read 2 Thess ch 2 and 1 John 2:18 and Revelation- the man of sin comes before the Second Coming
 

GaryA

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Yes. After at least seven years, Christ comes WITH His saints. But prior to that He came FOR His saints at the Rapture.
But, He still came.

Why do you refuse to acknowlege this???

What you will eventually realize and understand is that He is only coming one more time - to stay - and, a series of events will unfold at that time - starting with the resurrection and rapture...

This is what the Bible really actually tells us.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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FWIIW - I believe the original [good] manuscripts for the N.T. were the Koine Greek Textus Receptus.

In other words, it was originally written in Greek.

Consider the scope of this verse:

Revelation 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Just/Only Israel?

Kinda doubt it...
The same word translated 'earth' can be translated 'land.' In some contexts, it does not refer to the entire planet earth. The same is true of the Hebrew word 'eretz, which is translated 'ges' into Greek.

In Genesis 2:11, we read:
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

The word 'ges' shows up in the LXX here, translating 'eretz.'

Also 'all the tribes of the earth' in Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30 is the same word used to translate 'tribes' in the context of the twelve tribes of Israel.

So is there a reason to take this to refer to the tribes of the land mourning as opposed to some translations which say kindred of the earth will mourn?

These passages apparently point back to a passage in Zechariah, which predicted that Israel would pierce the Messiah.

Zechariah 12,

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
 

presidente

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The Greek word parousia happens to be used for BOTH the Rapture and the Second Coming. (However there are also other Greek words used in this connection). But for anyone to confuse the two events means that they do not understand the reasons for either.
The word means 'coming.' It was used of official visits. When a Roman dignitary visited a city, the people of the city might go out to meet him and escourt him back.

The word does not mean 'rapture.'
 

presidente

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I am going to suggest that - back then - they were "much more very highly likely" to have stayed within the 'proper' construct of whatever language they were writing or speaking - especially writing.

Just my 2 cents...
In this case, using 'ges' to refer to a particular land, and not the whole earth, is a standard usage based on how it is used in scripture. See my previous post of one example. it also shows up in definitions/glosses of the word. For example. you can see this in the Strong's glossary.
 

presidente

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Except, as I (a pre-tribber) discussed with you back in April, the text in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 says,

--"...rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels IN A FIRE OF FLAME INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those not knowing God and..." - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-8.htm ; NOT merely on "a singular 24-hr day"
I probably pointed out to you back then that this is irrelevant, since 'day' is not mentioned in the verses in question. It does show up later in the passage. As theologian Craig Keener has pointed out, the language of the passage has the sense of 'at the same time as'. Jesus comes and gives the church rest from those that trouble it at the same time as He executes vengence on them that believe not.

I was listening to a video of a former pre-tribber last night who had taught a man pre-trib. The man went to seminary and had a professor who taught something else. So he went to this man to get some ammo to convince the professor of pre-trib. The man who made the video went through all the verses to support pre-trib and kept thinking he wished that were a bit stronger. At the end of it, he realized as he examined each passage that they kind of 'work' with pretrib if you already believe in pre-trib, but none of them really proved pre-trib. He was still pre-trib after that conversation, but eventually let it go. This conversation helped him see that.

I could relate to this because I used to believe in pre-trib. Then I started looking for actually evidence of it. I realized I'd been taught to assume pre-trib and read verses in light of that. Pre-trib arguments are things like wildly allegorical arguments like saying John being told 'come up hither' represents the pre-trib rapture. That's kind of ridiculous, especially since pre-trib is supposed to rely on more literal interpretation. Another argument is that 'not appointed unto wrath' somehow is supposed to mean that Christians can't be on the earth when God is pouring out wrath on the wicked. It also implies that the tribulational saints, toward which Revelation is so positive, are under wrath, when they also obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. There are those who will try to interpret allegorical passages like parables. Or there is something weird like reinterpreting one apostacy verse to really be about the rapture.

Pre-trib arguments are never showing an actual sequence of events in scripture that clearly show where the pre-trib rapture occurs. And pre-trib relies on arguing that passages don't really mean what they seem to mean. II Thessalonians 2 speaks of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him. The gathering of the elect is predicted in Matthew 24-- set after the tribuation. But pre-tribber insist that gathering is about Israel, not the church, even though the rapture is called the gathering in II Thessalonians 2.

--[from a post in June, where I similarly stated...] "I'm saying ALL SEVEN YEARS (SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS) are His "IN FLAMING FIRE [see again Lam2:3], INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." [2Th1:7-8] and "WRATH" (when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [Lam2:3-4 parallel language to 2Th2:7b-8a],...);"
Can you give me some reason why you would want to believe such a convoluted interpretation of scripture instead of something more straightforward? Aside from it just being more comfortable to think of oneself getting raptured out before the heavy persecution adn suffering?

--...where the parallel language I just mentioned ^ says (in each):

  • "[2Th2:7b-8a] the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be], AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..."


  • If verse 8 there says the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming, isn't it ridiculous to think it takes 7 years to destroy him?

    (he is revealed at the START of those "7 years," not at its MIDDLE, and certainly not at its END--COMPARE 2Th2's BEGINNING / MIDDLE / END events with Dan9:27a/b/c[26b]'s SAME BEGINNING[of 7 yrs] / MIDDLE / END, to see that Paul is NOT covering merely one small aspect of these [as most incorrectly see him referring only to the "3.5 yrs," here--namely, from the time of 2:4's event])
    In the context of talking about the coming of our Lord and our gathering unto Him, Paul wrote that the day of Christ would not occur until there was a falling away and the man of sin be revealed.
 

Angela53510

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I did not see any proof of your claims friend. This is a quote of the Didache that shows what they did teach.

"
CHAPTER 16
16:1 Watch concerning your life; let not your lamps be quenched or your loins be loosed, but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour at which our Lord cometh.

16:2 But be ye gathered together frequently, seeking what is suitable for your souls; for the whole time of your faith shall profit you not, unless ye be found perfect in the last time.

16:3 For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate;

16:4 and because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world.

16:5 Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself.

16:6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead

16:7 -- not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him;

16:8 then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.

{The End of the Didache}"

The Didache is not inspired. I translated it in 2nd year Biblical Greek. Some things directly quote the Bible, others paraphrase, as this does in many places, and other things are not Biblical.

The passages we did in my class, had an interesting part about evangelists. They were not supposed to stay in town for more than 3 days, not be given a bed or food. Too bad the prosperity preachers don't have to obey that! Lol

However, you are right about it showing something similar to what the Bible says. But, no date given for when the return could come, although a sense of urgency. When people in the 1st or 2nd century AD get urgent about the Second Coming, that sure points to how wrong they were, doesn't it?
 

Angela53510

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I apologize, I'm just now seeing this post of yours.


Here's some of the points, in brief, that I've put forward:

--"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (2Th2:1) I equate with what is being said here: "TO the meeting OF THE LORD in the air" (1Th4:17)... in both of these verses, I understand that some type of "movement / re-location" of us is taking place.

"harpagēsometha [G726 - harpazo]" is simply the VERB-ACTION (one could call it the "SNATCH-action") that "moves" us from the one place TO the other place;


--I've made the point that Paul speaks concerning that particular subject, more than merely just in verse 1Th4:17, but something like 8-10 times in these two Thessalonian epistles, using a variety of terms and phrases (granted, only here in 1Th4:17 is the verb SNATCH-action term being used, which is simply describing "how it's gonna go down" [so to speak]); not all of his references to it are in "verb" form... some of them, like in 2Th2:1 and the latter part of 1Th4:17 (which two verses I mentioned above) use NOUNS to tell of it;



--I find it somewhat cumbersome and also CONFUSING to some readers if I were to continually (or ONLY) refer to "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [as being] when we (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY, ONLY) will GO "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR," and have the readers (sometimes new believers) grasp what it is I'm actually referring to, in a drive-by-reading or readings :) ... so when I use the term "OUR Rapture," I'm simply referring to the point in time when the verb-action "harpagēsometha [G726 - harpazo]" (pertaining solely to the Church which is His body / US) will change our location. I find it easier for ppl to grasp, since the modern reader is at least familiar with the term "rapture," and not so much when it comes to the term "episynagoges [UNTO HIM]" which they might find confusing;


--another example: ppl a continually conflating the terms "resurrect/resurrected" and "rapture/raptured" (they are not the same, of course)... or the phrase "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE first" [incorrectly] as "shall GO UP TO the meeting of the Lord in the air [PRIOR TO when the "we which are ALIVE and remain" will do so--but it does not mean that]"... I simply try my best to convey what I'm speaking about in terms people are familiar with, and then endeavor to provide explanation where required or requested




Hope that helps you see where I am coming from when I type out the words "OUR Rapture". = )

Thank you for replying, I was quite confused as to what you were saying with: "our rapture." Or where you found it.

If I understand you correctly, you have taken the words, ἡμῶν ἐπισυναγωγῆς in 2 Thess. 2:1, and translated them as "our rapture."
I hope this is what you were saying. I do see why you might have done this, but disagree with you! And I disagree because the theology -dispensationalism is wrong! But also because what you have come up with us not scholarly or correct in any eschatological viewpoint!

Certainly, the ἡμῶν (hemon) means "our," being the Genitive Plural feminine, to agree with the noun. However, ἐπισυναγωγῆς, or episynagoges, occurring only 2 times in the Bible, means, "our being gathered together," preferable to inserting a word like "rapture," which appears no where in the Bible. In fact "syn" always has the implication of "coming/gatherings together" as a prefix in Greek. And of course, synagogue, was the meeting or gathering together of a minimum of 10 Jewish, adult men. IOW, 10 or more men "gathering" together to celebrate the Torah and the other readings & literature & worship God.

In practically every version I looked at, "our being gathered" or "our gathering" was the default translation for 2 Thess 2b, including KJV, which you use, with the feminine noun ἐπισυναγωγῆς "episynagoges" some combination of "our gathering" is found.

Now, I understand you are committed to the Rapture, so in your mind ἐπισυναγωγῆς = rapture. However, as I have noted much earlier in this thread, the word for "meet" ἀπάντησιν "apantesin" in 1 Thess 4:17, does not mean meet and go away with Jesus, but meet & return with him. Unfortunate that the "return" is left off, when in fact, that word would have made a huge difference and stopped this 2 returns of Jesus & rapture doctrine in its tracks. I do believe it is a major error on the part of the KJV translators, perpetuated in modern translations. It is clear from Acts 28:15, the people went out from Rome, to meet & return to Rome with Paul. In that verse, the meaning is very obvious to us, as well as the early Christians. In 1 Thess 4:17, the "meet & return" was very obvious to the Christians of the earliest church, but is obscure at the present time.

Further, any low frequency word like ἐπισυναγωγῆς episynagoges, with only 2 occurrences in the NT, is used for a specific purpose. Paul was a master of words, to say nothing of being inspired. The translators do not takes liberties with this word, and neither should you!

We know the Thessalonians were convinced they had missed meeting Jesus in the air, which is really why Paul wrote 1 & 2 Thess. was to counter this lie, that they had missed the return of Jesus, along with their dead loved ones. Paul is writing to dispel this myth, not perpetuate it.

Moreover, I find it very arrogant that while every translation, including KJV uses "our gathering together with/to him" (unto is an obsolete word in English, and replaced with a different preposition, prepositions being slippery parts of speech in Koine Greek!) and never rapture, seeing as it is important to translate accurately, and not replace words in the Bible with a word which wasn't even invented till 3 or 4 centuries later.

As David Tree has reminded us many times, and I completely agree with him, not to add or subtract words from the Word of God. In this case, you have both deleted a word, and added a different word which appears nowhere else in the Bible.

My suggestion is to use a modern translation, and learn Greek. Pulling words out of Biblegateway or Blue Letter Bible is no substitute for actually knowing not just definitions of words, but the grammar, syntax and context. Most of your errors are based on thinking you are using Greek, when in fact, you are mouthing words without an understanding of the Koine Greek Language. Bill Mounce is just starting Greek classes online. While he doesn't teach the course, anymore, it does use his materials, with a highly competent professor teaching. When I took 2nd year Greek, we also met on Zoom weekly, to discuss the translations. It was so much more than what was written in the text. Bill Mounce has been on every modern translation committee, written commentaries, morphologies, and his father was also a Greek scholar, doing the same things. So amazing insights from his father's knee.

I'm glad we could look at this together. I know you are very sincere in your beliefs. Maybe after a year of Greek, you will not change your mind about eschatology, which is fine. You would be much better able to express your opinions, having access to the original language, not just random words you do not understand in context, plus the importance of using the right translations for these words.
 

Angela53510

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Only if you wish to fool yourself (and others).

According to NASA, the earth's atmosphere extends to 400 kilometers above the surface of the earth. It includes the troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, and thermosphere. So if Christ will be even 200 km above the surface (which would be above the aurora borealis), that is certainly not a coming to the earth!
Just curious where you find that Christ will hover some 200 km above the earth in the Bible? In Greek, that would be "ouranos" or heavens (not the place called heaven!) But nowhere is that said! Instead, ἀέρα "aera," which means "the air around us!"

You have an imaginary scenario here, which is unsupported by the text in either Koine Greek 16th century or contemporary English.

"to meet the Lord in the air" 1 Thess 4:17 KJV

All 5 occurrences of air in the NT are speaking of the air around us. When we toss dust in the air, as in Acts 22:23, we rarely throw it 200 km in the air. Or should I say, "Never!?"

Acts 22:23 N-AMS
GRK: εἰς τὸν ἀέρα
NAS: and tossing dust into the air,
KJV: dust into the air,
INT: into the air

Here's the link to this word, and the 5 occurrences:
https://biblehub.com/greek/aera_109.htm

So no! When Jesus returns we will not meet in the outer atmosphere! Not 200 km, 100 or 10km, probably closer than 1 km. This is a major mistake with dispensationalism, eisegesis! You take a word, pull it out of context, throw it at people like you have a clue what it means, when your definition is wrong. Aera "ἀέρα" does not mean the outer atmosphere. Ever!
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Thank you for replying, I was quite confused as to what you were saying with: "our rapture." Or where you found it.

If I understand you correctly, you have taken the words, ἡμῶν ἐπισυναγωγῆς in 2 Thess. 2:1, and translated them as "our rapture."
I hope this is what you were saying. I do see why you might have done this, but disagree with you! And I disagree because the theology -dispensationalism is wrong! But also because what you have come up with us not scholarly or correct in any eschatological viewpoint!
My focus has been our RELOCATION (at the time of "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM").

My question to you, Angela, is... do you or do you not believe there is MOVEMENT (of us) at that time (v.1), EVEN if you believe it is "to meet Him and return" at that time... I'm asking you, do you believe we MOVE OFF OF THE EARTH'S SURFACE, even if just for a short moment (according to your view).

If you do, THIS is what I am conveying (the MOVEMENT--by means of the ACTION of the VERB that we'll be passive recipients of) meant by "harpagēsometha G726" in 1Th4:17 (and inferred from the idea "UNTO HIM" in 2Th2:1 "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" ["UNTO HIM" where??--the same place we're located now here on the earth, or somewhere else, like "IN THE AIR" where "TO the meeting of the Lord" is said to take place, thus requiring OUR MOVEMENT [passive] to THERE, by means of the "CAUGHT UP / SNATCH [G726]" ACTION--THIS... THIS WHOLE IDEA--"OUR relocation" at that point in time, NO MATTER HOW LONG IT LASTS from Point A to Point B--is what I am speaking of--the ACTION of the "SNATCH [G726]" at the TIME that "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" requiring OUR EXPERIENCING "MOVEMENT-TO-ELSEWHERE" is what I'm talking about.]

I am NOT SAYING that "harpazo [verb - G726]" is DEFINED AS "episynagoges [noun - G1997]"... I'm saying that the VERB is the MEANS BY WHICH we will experience the "episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM" (THERE! Where HE will be LOCATED at that point in time!)

Certainly, the ἡμῶν (hemon) means "our," being the Genitive Plural feminine, to agree with the noun. However, ἐπισυναγωγῆς, or episynagoges, occurring only 2 times in the Bible, means, "our being gathered together," preferable to inserting a word like "rapture," which appears no where in the Bible. In fact "syn" always has the implication of "coming/gatherings together" as a prefix in Greek. And of course, synagogue, was the meeting or gathering together of a minimum of 10 Jewish, adult men. IOW, 10 or more men "gathering" together to celebrate the Torah and the other readings & literature & worship God.

In practically every version I looked at, "our being gathered" or "our gathering" was the default translation for 2 Thess 2b, including KJV, which you use, with the feminine noun ἐπισυναγωγῆς "episynagoges" some combination of "our gathering" is found.
[ditto what I put above]



CONTINUED INTO NEXT POST (due to length of the combined messages)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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CONTINUATION OF LAST POST

Now, I understand you are committed to the Rapture, so in your mind ἐπισυναγωγῆς = rapture. However, as I have noted much earlier in this thread, the word for "meet" ἀπάντησιν "apantesin" in 1 Thess 4:17, does not mean meet and go away with Jesus, but meet & return with him. Unfortunate that the "return" is left off, when in fact, that word would have made a huge difference and stopped this 2 returns of Jesus & rapture doctrine in its tracks. I do believe it is a major error on the part of the KJV translators, perpetuated in modern translations. It is clear from Acts 28:15, the people went out from Rome, to meet & return to Rome with Paul. In that verse, the meaning is very obvious to us, as well as the early Christians. In 1 Thess 4:17, the "meet & return" was very obvious to the Christians of the earliest church, but is obscure at the present time.
Further, any low frequency word like ἐπισυναγωγῆς episynagoges, with only 2 occurrences in the NT, is used for a specific purpose. Paul was a master of words, to say nothing of being inspired. The translators do not takes liberties with this word, and neither should you!
We know the Thessalonians were convinced they had missed meeting Jesus in the air, which is really why Paul wrote 1 & 2 Thess. was to counter this lie, that they had missed the return of Jesus, along with their dead loved ones. Paul is writing to dispel this myth, not perpetuate it.
With the part I bolded ^ , I completely disagree that this is what the Thessalonians were convinced of (by the false conveyors, v.2).

Rather, the text states that Paul was pointing out that the false info they were purporting was: "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (NOT "that THE RAPTURE has already taken place" [and thus they missed it, or feared that they did, due to this false msg / info]). But those are COMPLETELY DIFFERING ideas. It was the former not the latter of these two that is what Paul is expressing was the false info that he didn't want them being convinced was true. (It wasn't.) But what was being falsely "purported" had to do with "that THE DAY OF THE LORD is present / is already here [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"... not one iota about "RAPTURE" (having been missed, because IT had already occurred according to the false conveyors / false message)...

Verse 2 (the false info Paul was warning them not to fall for) had NOTHING TO DO with the concept of "RAPTURE" or having MISSED it, in either the false conveyors' minds/msg OR in the minds of the Thessalonians. Paul simply does NOT state anything remotely about "RAPTURE" being on their minds, even potentially--instead, "that [those purporting that] THE DAY OF THE LORD IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"--i.e. that they were IN IT and it was presently unfolding in their experience (on the earth--the ONLY location that "the day of the Lord" is ever said to occur, per Scripture)

Moreover, I find it very arrogant that while every translation, including KJV uses "our gathering together with/to him" (unto is an obsolete word in English, and replaced with a different preposition, prepositions being slippery parts of speech in Koine Greek!) and never rapture, seeing as it is important to translate accurately, and not replace words in the Bible with a word which wasn't even invented till 3 or 4 centuries later.
Do you think we go "TO" Him (where HE WILL BE LOCATED), at the point in time I'm referencing? If you do, then that is what I mean.

I see it SIMILARLY to what is being conveyed in Numbers 10:4... what is the IDEA being expressed in that verse? Any kind of MOVEMENT / RELOCATION regarding the persons being referred to in that verse? It seems so to me (even if these are not the precise words used in 2Th2:1... the idea of a RELOCATION, in that case it was certain persons who were to "[H413 -VERB] unto/to/before/towards YOU [/to-toward-before MOSES]" - https://biblehub.com/text/numbers/10-4.htm (that is the general IDEA being expressed in Numbers 10:4--MOVEMENT / RELOCATION FROM one place TO another, namely to assemble before Moses! (THIS is the IDEA I am endeavoring to convey: the MOVEMENT [VERB ACTION imposed upon us] that GETS US TO the "episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM")

I know what "verb" scripture uses (not in 2Th2:1 but in 1Th4:17) that gets us TO THERE.

I try to put the whole idea into a WORD PICTURE so as to aid the reader that, YES, a RELOCATION / MOVEMENT of US in INVOLVED (thus "OUR RAPTURE"--It pertains to NO ONE ELSE except "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"

Make sense?

I gather you have a problem with the "idea" I'm endeavoring to present, when I post that phrase.


As David Tree has reminded us many times, and I completely agree with him, not to add or subtract words from the Word of God. In this case, you have both deleted a word, and added a different word which appears nowhere else in the Bible.

My suggestion is to use a modern translation, and learn Greek. Pulling words out of Biblegateway or Blue Letter Bible is no substitute for actually knowing not just definitions of words, but the grammar, syntax and context. Most of your errors are based on thinking you are using Greek, when in fact, you are mouthing words without an understanding of the Koine Greek Language. Bill Mounce is just starting Greek classes online. While he doesn't teach the course, anymore, it does use his materials, with a highly competent professor teaching. When I took 2nd year Greek, we also met on Zoom weekly, to discuss the translations. It was so much more than what was written in the text. Bill Mounce has been on every modern translation committee, written commentaries, morphologies, and his father was also a Greek scholar, doing the same things. So amazing insights from his father's knee.
For the most part, I start out with Bible Hub and the link there showing "Additional Translations" (which shows many more than is listed on the face page), and I look at the Greek and Hebrew shown (like at the link I provided above, under Numbers 10:4, for example), along with my three hard copy interlinears, and numerous other resources, both in hard copy [I own several thousands of books, a great many of which are aids in studying the Bible] and online sources... (since you are bringing it up)... hard copies of Greek Grammars, and on and on and on... I endeavor to draw from the best of them...

I'm glad we could look at this together. I know you are very sincere in your beliefs. Maybe after a year of Greek, you will not change your mind about eschatology, which is fine. You would be much better able to express your opinions, having access to the original language, not just random words you do not understand in context, plus the importance of using the right translations for these words.
I do not disagree.

I think you are misunderstanding me, by your thinking I'm saying one can replace the word "harpazo [verb]" where "episynagoges [noun]" is written and intended (which are indeed ENTIRELY DISINCT CONCEPTS and DEFINITIONS).

But I'm not.

The one is the MEANS and the other is the END (not that I'm saying THAT is the END-EVER of "what happens NEXT". NO!! Not sayin' that! ;) Sometimes it becomes necessary to spell out every detail of what one is INTENDING, in these forum posts, lest someone "take and run with" an idea that one is NOT intending--yet I find most ppl tend to bypass posts of any real length or detail. I get it!! = ) )




Hope that helps you see my perspective. Good day, Angela. = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Nehemiah6 said:
If Christ comes "in the air" He does not come upon the earth.
But, He still came/comes.
lol. Do you think it would be perfectly fine, if in our retelling of the historical events (surrounding Jesus' life) we say that the magi came to Jerusalem to bring their gifts when He mounted the donkey (what we now call "the triumphal entry")... [??] since the word "COME" is used in both the Micah 5:2 passage and in Zech9:9... ? :D

How does that make sense of what the texts are actually conveying? = )




["CONTEXT MATTERS," right? :D Not just because the "same word" is used in each case, right??]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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There are ONLY TWO RESURRECTIONS = The FIRST and the Second.
In Scripture, one will never find the phrase "SECOND resurrection" (nor the phrase "SECOND coming," for that matter).

What I believe you are referring to is the phrase "the second DEATH".

What Rev20:6 is saying is "Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection THE FIRST [adjective]" (speaking of "resurrection OF LIFE" rather than "resurrection of DAMNATION / JUDGMENT"--So, pertaining to "the resurrection of the JUST/RIGHTEOUS" ["first"=a QUALITY... the one being "OF LIFE"])

The thing is, 1Cor15:23 states "[re: resurrection] But EACH [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] in his own ORDER / RANK" (meaning that there is an ORDER / RANK to it... not that there remains ONLY ONE occurrence at a SINULAR POINT IN TIME--example: the "2 Witnesses" will be RESURRECTED from the dead at the "6th Trumpet [events / 2nd Woe," that is, at a time-slot COMPLETELY DISTINCT from when ALL OTHER saints will be! And they will ascend up into Heaven after they are resurrected from the dead, even)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The word means 'coming.' It was used of official visits. When a Roman dignitary visited a city, the people of the city might go out to meet him and escourt him back.

The word does not mean 'rapture.'
Just what word are you referring to here ^ ?



[I assume you are referring to G726 - ἁρπαγησόμεθα harpagēsometha / harpazó , right? - https://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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As theologian Craig Keener has pointed out, the language of the passage has the sense of 'at the same time as'. Jesus comes and gives the church rest from those that trouble it at the same time as He executes vengence on them that believe not.
That is exactly the point I AM MAKING!!!

(other than the fact that "gives [rest]" is not conveyed, but simply the FACT of "ye who are troubled REST/REPOSE with us IN..."[stating a FACT]... but that's a relatively minor niggle... the basic point is the same)...



That's what I've said (the part you're bringing out about "what he said" [theologian Craig Keener])... THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING TOO!!

"...rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from Heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those that..."

^ Please note that what I'm saying, is that (IN THAT SENTENCE ^ ) the UNDERLINED and the BOLD BOTH take place AT/.DURING THE SAME TIME-PERIOD...

...and that's just it, it IS a "TIME-PERIOD" in which that (bold ^ ) WILL TAKE PLACE: "7 years" total! (not just the day He "RETURNS" in Rev19!)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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[and let me just add to that ^ ]

...in the same way that the following verse is speaking of a TIME-PERIOD (and not merely something occurring in a "singular 24-hr day or "point in time"):

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

--Acts 3:21






[I believe this ^ commences when Jesus does the "DESCEND from Heaven" thing... and unfolds from that point including/involving also things occurring IN / DURING / WITHIN the "7 years" leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth in (the later) Rev19 point in time]
 

presidente

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That is exactly the point I AM MAKING!!!

(other than the fact that "gives [rest]" is not conveyed, but simply the FACT of "ye who are troubled REST/REPOSE with us IN..."[stating a FACT]... but that's a relatively minor niggle... the basic point is the same)...



That's what I've said (the part you're bringing out about "what he said" [theologian Craig Keener])... THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING TOO!!

"...rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from Heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those that..."

^ Please note that what I'm saying, is that (IN THAT SENTENCE ^ ) the UNDERLINED and the BOLD BOTH take place AT/.DURING THE SAME TIME-PERIOD...

...and that's just it, it IS a "TIME-PERIOD" in which that (bold ^ ) WILL TAKE PLACE: "7 years" total! (not just the day He "RETURNS" in Rev19!)
No, you aren't saying the same thing. Your argument was that the word translated 'day' can refer to a time period. The verses I referred to did not say 'day.'


Some some scripture that present ssome evidence that the rapture occurs before the tribulation. Give some evidence that Jesus comes back twice, or that Jesus is in the air for a really long time period of seven years.
 

rayzor

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Transliteration
parousia (Key)
Pronunciation
par-oo-see'-ah

Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From the present participle of πάρειμι (G3918)
Greek Inflections of παρουσία [?]
mGNT
24x in 4 unique form(s) TR
24x in 4 unique form(s) LXX
0x in 0 unique form(s)
παρουσία — 6x
παρουσίᾳ — 9x
παρουσίαν — 3x
παρουσίας — 6x
KJV Translation Count — Total: 24x
The KJV translates Strong's G3952 in the following manner: coming (22x), presence (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. presence
  2. the coming, arrival, advent
    1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment,
Strong’s Definitions
παρουσία parousía, par-oo-see'-ah; from the present participle of G3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect, presence.