How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Even in pre-trib rapture theory, there are still tribulation saints. If the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs while there are still tribulation saints (church members) present on Earth then God didn't include them. How do you account for this?
It is not for us to account for God's plans and purposes. Also, those Tribulation saints are resurrected and reign with Christ. So we do not know all the details.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Slow down! I don't think either one of us is "lying" or trying to deceive the other. What we have here is a simple disagreement on what the bible says.

Christ the LORD says: "Immediately after the Tribulation.....you will see the Son of Man Coming" - is that clear to you??? Of course He is coming after the trib: but as I stated before, this verse in NO WAY prevents Him from coming to the air 7 years previous.

No one, not once, not ever, has come forward with scripture of the LORD saying "I am coming before the Tribulation....."
" Not one, not once, not ever" does a scripture prove this coming after the trib' is Paul's rapture. Indeed, it cannot be.

Therefore, whoever says such things reverses God's words, which satan did in the Garden and does so now with 'pre-trib rapture.'
Whoa there! Don't put yourself in jeopardy. You have proved nothing except perhaps to yourself. You must prove that the coming in Revelation 19 is the SAME coming as Paul's coming in 1 Thes. 4. It is not and cannot possibly be.

Don't be silly: I simply disagree with what you imagine scripture tells us. I think you need more study.
1a) the LORD: "I am coming after the Tribulation."

1b) You: but as I stated before, this verse in NO WAY prevents Him from coming to the air 7 years previous.

Fallacy: Reversing the words of the Lord

the LORD says HE is not coming until AFTER the Tribulation - why are you arguing with the LORD Jesus Christ???

Which is correct statement 1a) or 1b)
 
Aug 2, 2021
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It is not for us to account for God's plans and purposes. Also, those Tribulation saints are resurrected and reign with Christ. So we do not know all the details.
Every time someone says 'pre-trib rapture' they are reversing the account/plan/purpose Christ spoke for His Bride/Church/Elect/Saints.

We have the details spoken by the LORD: "Immediately after the Tribulation......I am Coming." = Matt 24:29-31

There is not a single spoken word by the LORD to counter/reverse/alter or change His timing, after the Tribulation,on His Coming.

God is not the author of confusion.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
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"Judge not lest ye be judged." We are not here to judge others and declare they are lying or following the devil or are under a curse or anything else. We are brothers in the Lord and should reflect this in our messages.

With that said, we all should agree that the rapture CANNOT POSSIBLY be both pretrib and posttrib: Paul told us of only ONE (1) rapture. Therefore, either pretrib or posttrib theory is in error. It also means that some of those who hold to these theories are in error in their thinking. We all should be asking, "what does the WORD say?"

In determining the timing of the rapture, this is not easy. It takes much study and an understanding of the New Testament. One cannot read of a gathering and insist it much be Paul's gathering. Is God not allowed to gather more than once?

Let's show love in our posts!
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
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1a) the LORD: "I am coming after the Tribulation."

1b) You: but as I stated before, this verse in NO WAY prevents Him from coming to the air 7 years previous.

Fallacy: Reversing the words of the Lord

the LORD says HE is not coming until AFTER the Tribulation - why are you arguing with the LORD Jesus Christ???

Which is correct statement 1a) or 1b)
No, it does not say that. It may be how you are reading it, but it does not say what you think it does.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.

This is a coming without horses. The Revelation 19 coming is with horses.
This is a coming with an archangel. The Revelation 19 coming is with armies of angels.
This is a coming in John's timeline after the days of GT. In Paul's coming it is before wrath. It is impossible they are both speaking of one coming.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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"Judge not lest ye be judged." We are not here to judge others and declare they are lying or following the devil or are under a curse or anything else. We are brothers in the Lord and should reflect this in our messages.

With that said, we all should agree that the rapture CANNOT POSSIBLY be both pretrib and posttrib: Paul told us of only ONE (1) rapture. Therefore, either pretrib or posttrib theory is in error. It also means that some of those who hold to these theories are in error in their thinking. We all should be asking, "what does the WORD say?"

In determining the timing of the rapture, this is not easy. It takes much study and an understanding of the New Testament. One cannot read of a gathering and insist it much be Paul's gathering. Is God not allowed to gather more than once?

Let's show love in our posts!
You keep subverting the Word of God as satan did in the Garden and you also seek to measure yourself by yourself.

Evidence #1.) "In determining the timing of the rapture, this is not easy. It takes much study and an understanding of the New Testament. One cannot read of a gathering and insist it much be Paul's gathering. Is God not allowed to gather more than once?"

the LORD Jesus Christ determined when HE is Coming: " Immediately after the Tribulation........the Coming of the Son of Man."

Who are you to say otherwise? I said to you PROVE it with Scripture - your words and my words hold no value in this.
We both stand together, side by side, at the feet of our LORD and Savior = Jesus Christ
HE does not approve of anyone "adding to or taking away from His Words.

Please refresh your Fear of God and read this warning from the LORD: Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
Every time someone says 'pre-trib rapture' they are reversing the account/plan/purpose Christ spoke for His Bride/Church/Elect/Saints.

We have the details spoken by the LORD: "Immediately after the Tribulation......I am Coming." = Matt 24:29-31

There is not a single spoken word by the LORD to counter/reverse/alter or change His timing, after the Tribulation,on His Coming.

God is not the author of confusion.
And Paul tells us of another coming, a coming before God's wrath begins. Go and look: don''t take my word for it: Wrath starts with the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal. This is even before the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments, MUCH LESS after the days of GT.

You are forming doctrine from ONE VERSE, when there are MANY end time verses that every theory must agree with. What are you going to do with Paul's statement of His coming FOR His saints? There is a verse that tells us He comes with ten thousands of His saints. That would be His Rev. 19 coming.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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And Paul tells us of another coming, a coming before God's wrath begins. Go and look: don''t take my word for it: Wrath starts with the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal. This is even before the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments, MUCH LESS after the days of GT.

You are forming doctrine from ONE VERSE, when there are MANY end time verses that every theory must agree with. What are you going to do with Paul's statement of His coming FOR His saints? There is a verse that tells us He comes with ten thousands of His saints. That would be His Rev. 19 coming.
ALWAYS and FORVERE we are delivered from God's wrath thru the Blood of Christ.

The Tribulation is not God's wrath - this is another cascading lie of pre-trib.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
You keep subverting the Word of God as satan did in the Garden and you also seek to measure yourself by yourself.

Evidence #1.) "In determining the timing of the rapture, this is not easy. It takes much study and an understanding of the New Testament. One cannot read of a gathering and insist it much be Paul's gathering. Is God not allowed to gather more than once?"

the LORD Jesus Christ determined when HE is Coming: " Immediately after the Tribulation........the Coming of the Son of Man."

Who are you to say otherwise? I said to you PROVE it with Scripture - your words and my words hold no value in this.
We both stand together, side by side, at the feet of our LORD and Savior = Jesus Christ
HE does not approve of anyone "adding to or taking away from His Words.

Please refresh your Fear of God and read this warning from the LORD: Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I am not subverting anything. The problem is a lack of understanding on your part. It is silly to form doctrine from one verse of scripture.

I have agreed with you over and over: OF COURSE He is coming after the trib. But where is He before that? He is in heaven at the marriage and supper. This shows us that the saints are in heaven WITH HIM. And if we study to show ourselves approved, we can tell that they all have resurrection bodies at this time. HOW can we tell this? Very simple, by following other scriptures, such as 1 Thes. 4 that shows us the church is raised before wrath, and wrath starts before the week starts.

We must not only know scripture, we must understand it. How are YOU, going to get to heaven for the marriage?
 
Aug 2, 2021
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I am not subverting anything. The problem is a lack of understanding on your part. It is silly to form doctrine from one verse of scripture.

I have agreed with you over and over: OF COURSE He is coming after the trib. But where is He before that? He is in heaven at the marriage and supper. This shows us that the saints are in heaven WITH HIM. And if we study to show ourselves approved, we can tell that they all have resurrection bodies at this time. HOW can we tell this? Very simple, by following other scriptures, such as 1 Thes. 4 that shows us the church is raised before wrath, and wrath starts before the week starts.

We must not only know scripture, we must understand it. How are YOU, going to get to heaven for the marriage?
"In the beginning God" is silly to you???

Do you have other Scripture, or man approved divinity doctorates, to counter this "silly" one verse doctrine?
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
ALWAYS and FORVERE we are delivered from God's wrath thru the Blood of Christ.

The Tribulation is not God's wrath - this is another cascading lie of pre-trib.
You are showing your lack of understanding of the book of Revelation.
Case in point: the DAY of His wrath starts at the 6th seal. That means God gets ANGRY then. But no action is taken yet.
Next, the 7th seal is opened so now the BOOK can be opened.
The book contains the entire 70th week.

So in Rev. 8 the 70th week begins. God's wrath begins with the first trumpet judgment.
Since the 70th week is INSIDE the day of the Lord, it ALL comes with His wrath.
This is proven by the vials being filled with His wrath.
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.
Then the man of sin is revealed and the days of GT are soon to begin.
The False prophet show up, an image and mark are created and then begins the days of GT.
When God knows the right time, He will pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT.
This proves that God's wrath (in the vials) happens WHILE days of GT are taking place. They are concurrent.
Finally the Beast and False prophet are rendered helpless by the vials and the days of GT end.
DAYS continue to the 1260th day. The 7th vial marks the end of the week. Jesus is nowhere to be seen yet.
The OT saints are resurrected and taken to heaven to join with the church. Together they join the marriage and supper in heaven.
The Two witnesses are resurrected along with the beheaded.
Finally Jesus gets on His white horse, and the armies of heaven follow Him - ALL on white horses.
Armageddon takes place, as well as the parable of the tares.
Next comes the sheep and goat judgment

See how easy this is if we just follow the text?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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According to John's timeline, the marriage and supper are NOT "pretrib." God must wait for the resurrection of the Old Testament saints which will happen on the last 24 hour day of "the trib." that is why the 70th week ends in chapter 16, but the marriage and supper are in chapter 19. of course the beheaded saints will raise at this time, as will the Two Witnesses. Therefore, all saints who have died and those in Christ who will be alive at the rapture will be at the marriage. Those who survive the week will be in natural bodies on the earth for the sheep and goat judgment. All we need do is understand and follow John's timing. You asked a good question.
I think we more or less agree. I also believe the marriage and supper are post-trib and that it includes literally the entire church: all raptured and resurrected saints.

That being said, Revelation 19 doesn't mention the rapture or a gathering. Since we know that the marriage and supper are post-trib, and they include the entire church, then we can safely conclude the rapture already happened in a previous chapter.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
"In the beginning God" is silly to you???

Do you have other Scripture, or man approved divinity doctorates, to counter this "silly" one verse doctrine?
It is scripture: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Scripture is not silly. But sometimes peoples TAKE on scripture can be silly.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
I think we more or less agree. I also believe the marriage and supper are post-trib and that it includes literally the entire church: all raptured and resurrected saints.

That being said, Revelation 19 doesn't mention the rapture or a gathering. Since we know that the marriage and supper are post-trib, and they include the entire church, then we can safely conclude the rapture already happened in a previous chapter.
AMEN, Brother!
 
Aug 2, 2021
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You are showing your lack of understanding of the book of Revelation.
Case in point: the DAY of His wrath starts at the 6th seal. That means God gets ANGRY then. But no action is taken yet.
Next, the 7th seal is opened so now the BOOK can be opened.
The book contains the entire 70th week.

So in Rev. 8 the 70th week begins. God's wrath begins with the first trumpet judgment.
Since the 70th week is INSIDE the day of the Lord, it ALL comes with His wrath.
This is proven by the vials being filled with His wrath.
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.
Then the man of sin is revealed and the days of GT are soon to begin.
The False prophet show up, an image and mark are created and then begins the days of GT.
When God knows the right time, He will pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT.
This proves that God's wrath (in the vials) happens WHILE days of GT are taking place. They are concurrent.
Finally the Beast and False prophet are rendered helpless by the vials and the days of GT end.
DAYS continue to the 1260th day. The 7th vial marks the end of the week. Jesus is nowhere to be seen yet.
The OT saints are resurrected and taken to heaven to join with the church. Together they join the marriage and supper in heaven.
The Two witnesses are resurrected along with the beheaded.
Finally Jesus gets on His white horse, and the armies of heaven follow Him - ALL on white horses.
Armageddon takes place, as well as the parable of the tares.
Next comes the sheep and goat judgment

See how easy this is if we just follow the text?
i lack understanding in Revelation???

Do you know that Revelation repeats Itself throughout by saying the same thing in different ways.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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It is scripture: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Scripture is not silly. But sometimes peoples TAKE on scripture can be silly.
Not just silly but corrupt when they say "did JESUS really say HE is Coming after the Tribulation."

Oh wait, that lie is now exposed, so you say: "this does not prevent the Lord from coming before that".

That satement you made a number of times reveals a proud heart, lack of the fear of God, and far far worse then silliness.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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It is scripture: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Scripture is not silly. But sometimes peoples TAKE on scripture can be silly.
Oh, and i am still waiting for the Scripture from you that says: 'Christ is coming for His Church BEFORE the Tribulation'
as you claim - now PROVE it and enough of your silly talk.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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No, it does not say that. It may be how you are reading it, but it does not say what you think it does.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.

This is a coming without horses. The Revelation 19 coming is with horses.
This is a coming with an archangel. The Revelation 19 coming is with armies of angels.
This is a coming in John's timeline after the days of GT. In Paul's coming it is before wrath. It is impossible they are both speaking of one coming.
This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.

Man loves the methodology of 'serpent twisting ' of scripture.

God hates it, and so do i.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

the LORD says: "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

No where in Scripture can you find the LORD or the Apostles saying there is more then one return -the Coming of Christ.

Again, to say other then the words of the LORD and the Apostles is the working of the evil one in your heart.

When you recognize this, the Lord will grant you grace to turn away from it.

Never assume that i lack understanding from the Holy Spirit on such things as His Coming and TRUTH.
To hurl insults because you cannot prove from scripture your position is clear immaturity.

The Apostles spoke the same singular Coming of the LORD in their writings - there was never a confusing statement or multiple Returns/Comings of the LORD. Always, just one - His Coming.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who are asleep(the spirits of the dead in Christ)

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. = Revelation 20 the FIRST Resurrection

After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

serpent twisting of scripture: "multiple returns of Christ and multiple resurrections and pre-trib rapture before the resurrection"
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,770
113
But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.
Looks like you are the one who is adding to Scripture by refusing to accept the fact that when Christ comes in the air, He does NOT come to the ground.