How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#21
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. - On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;” so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
[bold, underline and color mine ^ ... to aid in illustrating my point]

[I've posted this before, myself...]

It seems Irenaeus is saying the same thing I say (and other pre-tribbers I know say)...


--"the Church [WHICH IS HIS BODY]" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]--ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]")

[is distinct from]

--"the righteous" (per passages in the Olivet Discourse [and parallel passages], like Matt25:31-34, to end of chpt "the righteous" [SHEEP of the nations, those having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and who are "still-living" at the END of the Trib, who will ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom upon His "RETURN" to the earth--ENTER the MK in their mortal bodies (ONLY "saints" will ENTER)]; like its related Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 "the righteous"--same time-slot as the aforementioned)



I think there is an assumption that Irenaeus is speaking of identical persons, in his use of the terms "Church" and "the righteous"... but pre-tribbers see these as being distinct (primarily in that they come to faith in/during/within distinct TIME PERIODS)
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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#22
I guess you didn't read my clear exegetical analysis if the Greek in 1 Thess 4:17

No!
1. There are not 2 returns of Jesus- only 1 Second Coming. No rapture, no ascending. Waiting for Jesus, and greeting him and returning to earth with him for the final judgement.

2. No, 21st century North Americans are NOT going to escape what is coming. Christians die daily for their faith in China, Afghanistan. Russia, Muslim countries, Africa, like Nigeria. Thousands upon thousands of them. While ignorant westerners think they deserve a free trip away from what is to come. News flash! We are going to experience what all the martyrs have experienced since Nero started burning Christians at the stake in 60 AD.

3. No SECRET rapture. Find me the verse in English or Greek that has a "secret" rapture. Exegete the text properly, instead of relying on people like Darby & Scofield who didn't even know Greek. And if there was pre-millennials in the early centuries, they were historic, not dispensationalist. Seriously, dispensationalism really was made up by Darby & Schofield.

No rapture, just a meeting with Jesus at the parousia, or Second Coming when Jesus returns to reign and with his people!

Read what I wrote, try to understand the words I have translated and commented on. It's not hard, you're a smart person.
You mean the clear Exegetical analysis provided by Bible Gateway. Copied, pasted, uncredited.




Excerpted from post #8
Then we who are alive, who are left,[a] will be suddenly caught up together[c] with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 NET Footnotes 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tc The words οἱ περιλειπόμενοι (hoi perileipomenoi, “[the ones] who are left”) are lacking in F G 0226vid ar b as well as a few fathers, but the rest of the textual tradition has the words. Most likely, the Western mssomitted the words because of perceived redundancy with οἱ ζῶντες (hoi zōntes, “[the ones] who are alive”). 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tn Or “snatched up.” The Greek verb ἁρπάζω implies that the action is quick or forceful, so the translation supplied the adverb “suddenly” to make this implicit notion clear. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tn Or “simultaneously,” but this meaning does not fit as well in the parallel in 5:10. I've left in the footnotes, just for a cross reference. NET has 66K footnotes, I find them helpful & accurate. Now, let us look at it in Greek! …
Source Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Thessalonians 4:17-18&version=NET



1 These 4:17 ("ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 SBLGNT)

source at:https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Thessalonians 4&version=NASB;SBLGNT
 
Aug 31, 2021
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#23
(1 Thes. 1:10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

(1 Thes. 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,393
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#24
You mean the clear Exegetical analysis provided by Bible Gateway. Copied, pasted, uncredited.




Excerpted from post #8
Then we who are alive, who are left,[a] will be suddenly caught up together[c] with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 NET Footnotes 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tc The words οἱ περιλειπόμενοι (hoi perileipomenoi, “[the ones] who are left”) are lacking in F G 0226vid ar b as well as a few fathers, but the rest of the textual tradition has the words. Most likely, the Western mssomitted the words because of perceived redundancy with οἱ ζῶντες (hoi zōntes, “[the ones] who are alive”). 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tn Or “snatched up.” The Greek verb ἁρπάζω implies that the action is quick or forceful, so the translation supplied the adverb “suddenly” to make this implicit notion clear. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tn Or “simultaneously,” but this meaning does not fit as well in the parallel in 5:10. I've left in the footnotes, just for a cross reference. NET has 66K footnotes, I find them helpful & accurate. Now, let us look at it in Greek! …
Source Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Thessalonians 4:17-18&version=NET



1 These 4:17 ("ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 SBLGNT)

source at:https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Thessalonians 4&version=NASB;SBLGNT
I clearly posted my references at the bottom of the page on my first post. They consist of 2 recognized commentaries on 1& 2 Thessalonians, and the Exegetical Key by Rogers & Rogers, which has a broken back, I have used it so often. It is considered a scholarly source. BibleGateway is the secondary source of my Bible verses, under Turabian or Chicago style, which is the standard for all theological papers, it is never necessary to quote the website. All that is required is that you reference the Bible name it came from. As you can see in my post, I referenced the NET, noted I use it because of the extensive footnotes, and for Greek I used the SBL Greek New Testament.

Perhaps if you take some theological courses one day, you too can learn the conventions surrounding quotations of works of the Bible. I use the 9th edition of Kate Turabian's manual, which I just got. Always used the 7th edition before that!!

To tell you the truth, I always wonder why people quote BibleGateway as a source. I guess it's because they don't know any better. Biblegateway.com is a secondary source. It has gathered together many different translations in many languages for easy reference. The primary source is the Bible version, itself. Fancy not knowing that!

However, I could just as well have typed the verses from my personal hard copies of the SBL and NET. But, due to my very deformed hands, fingers & wrists, I do copy & paste from Biblegateway, although for personal devotions I read my hard copies, including my German Martin Luther updated.

(Fancy someone thinking you have to quote Biblegateway.com! It is the one quoting the hardback Bibles! My advice is to learn a bit more about how and when to cite sources! The Bible always stands alone, with certain styling for book, chapter & book, as well as abbreviations for the specific chapter! Good luck on your adventures, I wish you well!)
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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#25
I clearly posted my references at the bottom of the page on my first post. They consist of 2 recognized commentaries on 1& 2 Thessalonians, and the Exegetical Key by Rogers & Rogers, which has a broken back, I have used it so often. It is considered a scholarly source. BibleGateway is the secondary source of my Bible verses, under Turabian or Chicago style, which is the standard for all theological papers, it is never necessary to quote the website. All that is required is that you reference the Bible name it came from. As you can see in my post, I referenced the NET, noted I use it because of the extensive footnotes, and for Greek I used the SBL Greek New Testament.

Perhaps if you take some theological courses one day, you too can learn the conventions surrounding quotations of works of the Bible. I use the 9th edition of Kate Turabian's manual, which I just got. Always used the 7th edition before that!!

To tell you the truth, I always wonder why people quote BibleGateway as a source. I guess it's because they don't know any better. Biblegateway.com is a secondary source. It has gathered together many different translations in many languages for easy reference. The primary source is the Bible version, itself. Fancy not knowing that!

However, I could just as well have typed the verses from my personal hard copies of the SBL and NET. But, due to my very deformed hands, fingers & wrists, I do copy & paste from Biblegateway, although for personal devotions I read my hard copies, including my German Martin Luther updated.

(Fancy someone thinking you have to quote Biblegateway.com! It is the one quoting the hardback Bibles! My advice is to learn a bit more about how and when to cite sources! The Bible always stands alone, with certain styling for book, chapter & book, as well as abbreviations for the specific chapter! Good luck on your adventures, I wish you well!)
Same to you.

Personally, I wouldn't question others using Bible gateway when,if, I used it myself.

Forums are very often a place where Christians or others come to learn about the faith.

Resources like BG, Topical Bible search engines, Bible Hub, and the works of scholars, and those dedicated to textual criticism, only help the search in becoming a better informed Christian in my view.

Stay Blessed.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,560
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#26
I guess you didn't read my clear exegetical analysis if the Greek in 1 Thess 4:17
That was all BALONEY. And trying to show off your supposed knowledge of Greek only makes things worse. Spiritual things are discerned spiritually, not linguistically. So later on I will give you a proper exposition of that passage.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,393
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#27
And while we are throwing around words like exegete & hermeneutics around, here is one basic principle to follow, when forming doctrine.

1. You cannot make a doctrine out of one verse. Esp A verse which does not clearly bring to light the important cultural connotations of the specific, low frequency words, one of which was actually translated/transliterated wrong by Jerome into 4 century Latin. While there are quite a number of verses which refer to the Second Coming, only 1 Thess 4:17 purports to use the word harpazo, and is wrongly translated as "rapture." Well, in fact, the actual word "rapture" appears in not one Bible except for the Latin Vulgate, which is wrong. And "meeting" (apantesin) is used by Paul very specifically to refer to going out to meet a conquering hero, and returning with him. A low frequency word, found only 3 times in the NT, Paul uses it so Greek reading Christians will understand it is not just about meeting & going away, it is about returning and going back, as Paul did himself in Acts 28:15. Comparing its use with other uses of the word in the Bible, leads us to realize this meeting is a special one, the Second Coming of Christ, where the living & the dead go out, or into the "air" and then return to the earth, accompanying Christ!

As for the 2 Left Behind verses elsewherel, again, this passage is clear that living believers are the ones who are left behind on the earth, with Jesus.

You simply cannot make a doctrine out of one verse, especially one that does not even have the word in it. And there simply are no verses anywhere else in the Bible - OT LXX or Koine Greek in the NT that support a rapture!

It is also interesting that most historical denominations are not dispensationalists, but generally amill., with good reason. Dispensationalism, with its pulling verses out of context, props up some 19th century men with a bad theory, not based on good English, let alone Koine Greek.

If people want to really exegete the text properly, learn both Hebrew & Greek, as well as syntax, grammar, and have a good collection of exegetical tools, like BDAG - Bauer, the top lexicon, exegetical keys & commentaries. Or buy one of the very expensive computer programs like Accordance or Logos. Please take a course in hermeneutics, (meaning interpretation) or I can recommend some textbooks, which show the logical reasons for the steps to have good hermeneutics, especially for pastors & teachers.

Finally, @Icedaisey, the footnotes in the NET which I included in post 8, were hyper- linked to the letters in brackets (a) (b) (c). This means they are copied from the actual NET Bible. Again, not necessary to quote the secondary source. Biblegateway, which is quoting the Bible, and many cases, they have applied for and got copyright exemptions.
 
Aug 22, 2021
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#28
Could someone give me a brief and simple summary of the different Tribulation theories and why it's such a hot topic in the U.S ? Just the basics rather than opinions. We don't seem to cover that in the UK denominations that I've been involved with, i've asked them about it but they don't seem to have heard of "pre-trib" ect. I tried reading the posts but it hasn't really clarified it for me, i guess because i'm unclear about the different basic views ?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,560
7,671
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#29
Could someone give me a brief and simple summary of the different Tribulation theories and why it's such a hot topic in the U.S ? Just the basics rather than opinions. We don't seem to cover that in the UK denominations that I've been involved with, i've asked them about it but they don't seem to have heard of "pre-trib" ect. I tried reading the posts but it hasn't really clarified it for me, i guess because i'm unclear about the different basic views ?
To keep it brief there are three view of the Rapture or catching up of the Church to Heaven:
1. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture means that there is no connection between the Tribulation period and the Rapture (which has always been imminent). This is the true biblical doctrine.

2. Mid-Tribulationism postulates that the Rapture is only after the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week and that the Church does go through the Tribulation (which corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist).

3. Post-Tribulationism postulates that the Rapture is only after both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation at the end of Daniel's 70th week. IOW the saints are subject to the wrath of God, contrary to Scripture.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,560
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#30
No!
1. There are not 2 returns of Jesus- only 1 Second Coming. No rapture, no ascending. Waiting for Jesus, and greeting him and returning to earth with him for the final judgement.
There is only one Second Coming of Christ TO EARTH. But for the rapture He comes "in the air"" and returns to Heaven without coming to earth. So there is no need to confuse the two events. Evidently you have no clue about this important doctrine (having been indoctrinated by the teachings of men).
 
Aug 22, 2021
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#31
To keep it brief there are three view of the Rapture or catching up of the Church to Heaven:
1. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture means that there is no connection between the Tribulation period and the Rapture (which has always been imminent). This is the true biblical doctrine.

2. Mid-Tribulationism postulates that the Rapture is only after the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week and that the Church does go through the Tribulation (which corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist).

3. Post-Tribulationism postulates that the Rapture is only after both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation at the end of Daniel's 70th week. IOW the saints are subject to the wrath of God, contrary to Scripture.
Ah i see, thanks, that gives me something to go by in my research. Going by that it seems i was taught some kind of pre-trib although they didn't call it that, Thanks again
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,560
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#32
The Baptists had to protect their investment. The pre-trib rapture doctrine was a promising cash cow. So, they sifted through early writings to find obscure references to support their conclusion.
This is not only patently false, but slanderous as well. Why don't you stick to a proper exposition of the relevant passages instead of attacking Christians who hold to a different view?

1. It is not only Baptists, but Brethren, Pentecostals, Non-Denominationals, and others (who have not been indoctrinated into previous theologies), who hold to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

2. It was first declared by Christ Himself, therefore it has divine authority. And Enoch pre-figured the Rapture, and is mentioned in both Genesis and Hebrews.

3. One does not need to sift through any "obscure references" to arrive at a proper understanding of the Resurrection/Rapture.

So let's look at the actual passages which reveal the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

JOHN 14:1-31: CHRIST'S PROMISE TO COME FOR HIS SAINTS AND TAKE THEM TO HEAVEN
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


1. This was addressed to the eleven apostles. But was it exclusively for them? Not according to Church history. They were all martyred. So it was for the entire Church and it is yet future.

2. Where did Christ go and where are those mansions? Christ ascended to Heaven and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. And those mansions are in the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven also. So the Rapture is meant to catch up the saints to Heaven before any Tribulation period.

3. Why did Jesus preface this teaching with "Let not your heart be troubled"? Firstly, because of His impending crucifixion, He knew that the apostles would be troubled and feel abandoned (since they all failed to remember what He said about His resurrection). But secondly, Christ was clearly dissociating the Rapture from any time of trouble or Tribulation. Had He intended the Church to go through that period, He would have certainly said "You will go through a time of Tribulation, before I come and take you to Heaven".

4. The Lord Jesus Christ makes it crystal clear that He will come PERSONALLY for His Bride the Church. He does not send angels to gather the Church. Thus "I will come again, and receive you unto myself". This speaks of an intimate and personal relationship.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE COMFORTS THE SAINTS
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1 CORINTHIANS 15:51-53: THE RESURRECTION IS INSEPARABLE FROM THE RAPTURE
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


The above two passages should be treated as one passage and one revelation. "The dead in Christ shall rise first" corresponds to "the dead shall be raised incorruptible". But while the passage in Thessalonians says nothing about the transformation, perfection, and glorification of the saints, 1 Corinthians 15 (as well as several others) speak about this critical matter in some detail.

So what do we learn from these two passages?

1. The trump of God is none other than the last trump, which is a summons to Heaven. It has absolutely nothing to do with the trumpet judgments (which are for damnation).

2. The archangel Michael proclaims the coming of Christ with a shout, and presumably blows that last trumpet for the saints to call them to Heaven.

3. The Lord Jesus Christ personally descends from Heaven (as He promised). But He is not alone. All the saints who died in Christ (their souls and spirits) come with Him to receive their glorious resurrection bodies. But since all the OT saints are also presently in the New Jerusalem (see Hebrews 12) and must also be resurrected, they all accompany Christ.

4. The priority here is the resurrection of the Church, and this is the main harvest of the First Resurrection. But since everything is in nanoseconds, it is almost simultaneous with the Rapture, which follows immediately thereafter. And neither of these events relate to any "time of Jacob's trouble" (the Tribulation).

5. "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them" sums up the Rapture. The Greek word harpagesometha = caught up together, (from harpazo, which also means snatching up) and was translated in the Latin Vulgate as "rapiemur", from which the word "rapture" is derived. So instead of 3 words we simply have this one word, which has been recognized by all Bible-believing Christians.

6. While "we shall be changed" is extremely brief, it is explained in 1 John 3:1-3: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

It should be evident that since Christ comes "in the air" FOR His saints, the Resurrection/Rapture has nothing to do with the Second Coming, when He comes WITH His saints to bring judgment upon His enemies and the enemies of Israel.
 
Aug 5, 2021
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#33
Ah i see, thanks, that gives me something to go by in my research. Going by that it seems i was taught some kind of pre-trib although they didn't call it that, Thanks again
I think you will find the article linked below to be somewhat helpful. There is also a partial rapture position that is held by some scholars. Also, it is helpful to remember that the term, "the tribulation" is an artificial one. Scholars have made that term equivalent with Daniel's 70th week. I found that doing some more studies on the topics below helped me to come to the conclusion I have made regarding the rapture.

1. When does the prophesied Day of The Lord begin?
2. How are the terms "tribulation" and the "wrath of God" defined Biblically?
3. When does the wrath of God begin?
4. Is it possible for the the church to be present during Daniel's 70th week?

https://faith.edu/faith-news/reviewing-five-rapture-positions-part-1/
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,402
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113
London
#34
No one taught a pre-trib rapture until John Darby, and Anglican preacher, in the mid 1800s. So the teaching is relatively new. Now, being new does not necessarily mean a teaching is defunct: while God never changes, He reveals knowledge and understanding in a progressive manner. Things that we have not contemplated before, suddenly come alive to us in the scriptures. So, while the ideas are new to us, they were always established in the mind of God.

But the manner is which things are "revealed" should be examined. So let's look at the manner in which the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture came to be a Baptist staple.

Dwight Young, professor emeritus at Brandeis University of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies, personally corresponded with a friend of mine several years ago. My friend was a young lawyer ( as an aside, had George Bush Senior been elected for a second term, there is a good possibility that my friend would have been chosen as a state supreme court judge.) Dwight was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary at the same time Hal Lindsey studied there, so this is more than 50 years ago or so. They were graduate students.

Dwight said the professors were discussing Darbyism, and whether or not it was a valid theology. This graduate student, Hal Lindsey, wrote a master’s thesis on the subject of this form of dispensationalism and the rapture. He later turned that thesis into a book called The Late Great Planet Earth. Now some of you may not know about this book, but it was a runaway bestseller. It made a lot of money. According to Dwight, that is where the Baptists made the switch. They saw that there was a market for this doctrine, and they ran with it. Dwight later moved up to and was a professor of biblical studies, biblical languages at Brandeis University, from which he retired, and he was in a state of retirement when my friend met him. So, 50 years from the writing of a master's thesis, the teaching is so entrenched in the Baptist circles you would think it was the gospel.

Historically, nobody ever thought of this doctrine before Darby. But once he popularized it in the context of dispensationalism, meaning things wrap up within blocks of time, people began to embrace it because they did not have to trust the Holy Spirit. If you are going to have any measure of understanding of prophetic Scripture, the end from the beginning and where we are at this point in time, you are going to have to walk in the Spirit. He is the One who wrote the Book; He is the One who is perfectly capable of interpreting it. And the folly of logic and reason and man-made constructs, such as dispensationalism, will lead you to increasing folly, such as the rapture.

God knows the end from the beginning, and the greatest moment of the Body of Christ is in the midst of the darkness in Revelation. That darkness has no potential to blunt our display of the glory of God, the radiance of God’s glory, or to represent Him exactly. It has no ability to influence that at all. This is the time for the glory of what God has been doing, when He established the heavens and the earth for the purpose of establishing a corporate man in creation so that He might be seen in creation as who He is. He is on a path wherein not only will He show who He is in all of His glory through the corporate body, but He will bring the enemy to judgment as well.

Grace and Peace,

Aaron56
The doctrine of the pre-trib rap was first publicly aired by Edward Irving, he got it from a young Scottish girl named Mary Cambell who claimed direct communication from the Holy Spirit on the matter. The second coming of our Lord was to be secret, only those watching and waiting would see Him. A Mr Henry Drummond [not the famous Henry Drummond] held a six day conference on prophecy, the first of it's kind at which some 26 leading churchmen were present. John Nelson Darby was there and so was Edward Irving.

John Nelson Darby plagiarised Irving changing it sufficiently to make it seem his own work. Darby's treatment of 2.Thess. 2 is plain deceitful. His doctrine was thrown out by every British theologian.

Irving fell from grace.
 
Feb 22, 2021
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#35
No one taught a pre-trib rapture until...{so and so said such and such}
Precious friend, this is a very weak argument. Paul received IT From The Glorified LORD Of Heaven to teach The Body Of CHRIST, According To The Scriptures:

(1) Found In The ONE Preserved Word of Truth, not in 100+ per-"versions" the enemy strives to distract Many with.

(2) "studied" Prayerfully/Carefully with ALL Of God's Bible study Rules.

(3) The Main Violations Of These Rules are:

a) misunderstanding/ignoring 2 Timothy 2:15, and:​
b) removing doctrine from one {Law/prophecy} of God's contexts, and
Inserting it into The Other {GRACE/MYSTERY} Different Context!

These Violations have caused all of the Massive CONFUSION about salvation, baptisms, signs, and God's Great GRACE Departure! Conclusion = PRE - TOJT!:

to be continued...
 
Feb 22, 2021
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#36
Continued from Previous:

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation. Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

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Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (“ages” past/future)
(Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15!) From Things That DIFFER:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
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The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth “With All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5a) Angels “gather the tares First, And they are taken Out of the kingdom”
to be cast into the furnace of fire! (Matthew 24:30, 13:30, 40-43!)

(5b) Angels “gather the elect”... (Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15!) From Things That DIFFER:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven
, Where we Live Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

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LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification
When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.

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Please Be Very Richly Blessed, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:

Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
2,157
597
113
#37
We "pre-tribbers" believe there is only ONE "RETURN" (biblically-speaking) of Jesus, that is, "to the earth" (Rev19):

Jesus is in the air in Rev 19, not on the ground. So, pretribs do teach two second comings. One is secret rapture where Christ is in air where clouds are, and the Rev 19 returns which is also in air.

The truth is Christ returns only once, in the air at first and later that day on the ground. The coming and rapture happen the same day, within moments of each other.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
2,157
597
113
#38
(1 Thes. 1:10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

(1 Thes. 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
2,412
829
113
#39
As a matter of fact the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught it long before Darby or anyone else. And all the apostolic churches of the 1st century expected the Rapture in their time.

Darby has been made the scapegoat by those who refuse to believe what is actually revealed about the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church. It has absolutely no connection to any Tribulation period since it has always been imminent.

BTW Darby may have started out as an Anglican preacher, but he and many others repudiated Anglicanism and sought to establish their churches or assemblies according to the New Testament pattern. So he was in fact a leading member of the Plymouth Brethren.
If you are referring to the Lord's Return/the Resurrection/ and the Rapture - you are correct.

If you are referring to pre-trib rapture -- you are incorrect. According to the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

pre-trib rapture never came out of our Lord's mouth nor the Apostles.

The serpent - yes!
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
2,412
829
113
#40
Continued from Previous:

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
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A lot of scripture here which can overlap an that is how some interject what it does not say, so i have a question.
Are you saying there are Two Returns of our Lord? If so please give the scripture reference - thank you
Are you saying there are Two Raptures? If so please give the scripture reference - thank you