How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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[Matthew 24:40 KJV] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

[Luke 17:34 KJV] I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

[Revelation 3:10 KJV] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of testing, which shall happen to all the world, to test them that dwell upon the earth.
Hello Rayzor,

The "one taken" group is being compared to those who were taken in the flood, making the comparison wicked to wicked. Many interpret the "one taken" group as being the gathering of the church, which is false. It is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where at which time the angels go out and "First" gather the wicked (Matthew 13:29).

"At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

Weeds = wicked

Wheat = Surviving great tribulation saints

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

37Where, Lord?” they asked. (i.e. Where are they going to be taken?)

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

The last line regarding the vultures, is in reference to Revelation 19:17-18 where when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angel calls all of the birds/vultures of air to come and gather themselves to the great supper of God, which is referring to those birds eating the flesh of the kings, generals, their armies and the "One taken" group who will be killed by the double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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The Lord promised that we would rest with Him after our work on earth is done. He did not promise that we
"... rest / repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels IN FLAMING FIRE INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that know not God... " 2Th1:7-8

['[on] them' being the same persons and during the same SPANS OF TIME that chpt 2 vv.9b,10-12 is ALSO speaking of, i.e. during the period of TIME that the "man of sin" will also be existing on the earth doing all he is slated to DO during those "7 years" that immediately precede and lead up to [what we call] His Second Coming to the earth--so that the "IN FLAMING FIRE" [comp. Lam2:3--also compared with the wording there to 2Th2:7b-8a] AND the "WITH His mighty angels... INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that..." are speaking of the SPANS OF TIME that [at the very least] involves also the "7 Trumpets" (7 angels) and "7 Vials" (7 angels) unfolding upon the earth...
...and the FIRST FOUR Trumpets are in the FIRST HALF of the "7 years," with the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" occurring at MID-Trib [when the 2Th2:4 part (etc) commences--NOT the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" 2:9a of him/the "man of sin" which will take place way back at SEAL #1 at the START of the "7 years" prior to the FIRST FOUR Trumpets even (also in the first HALF)]

IOW, the above passage is referring to a substantial SPANS OF TIME, not merely the 24-hr day of His "RETURN" (Rev19), as many suppose.
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
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i could say wisdom is not found in the land of the living, or that Jesus is the first beggotten of the dead.that you must die to self or the fountain of youth is in Asia Because Jesus is the 8th of the 7 churches.But i'm not sure about context.
Carcass is a dead body - vultures feed off of dead bodies - those taken will be slaughtered when the Lord Returns.

Does not give aid to the pre-trib error, even though they quote this passage as pre-trib.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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What I am trying to illustrate is that the term "first resurrection" does not indicate a one-time event. It is a "principal, most important" resurrection.....to life. Several different groups and persons, same destination and/or result.

https://biblehub.com/greek/4413.htm
That's basically what I said, so we agree.

However there is one appointed resurrection of the dead at the last day that has been taught consistantly in prophecy.
Jesus himself spoke of it 4 times in John Chapter 6.
If there was not one main resurrection, Paul wouldn't have spoken of it the way he did in 1 Thess 4.

We can't avoid it. He is coming in glory. Everyone will see him and one of the components of his return
will be our resurrection to greet him.

 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Scripturally I myself can fill that gap very very easily with full comprehension. Can you? By the way accurate and complete scriptural knowledge Has No gaps. It is a complete full Working model.
"accurate and complete scriptural knowledge Has No gaps. It is a complete full Working model"

Then we agree at least on the above quote. Scripture is harmonious. Prophecy flows together and tells the same story.
This is one major reason why the pretrib idea doesn't work for me. It does too much damage to scripture.
It's just too contrived to be genuine.
 
Nov 17, 2017
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Hello!
Scripture is harmonious.
Indeed!
Question?
In all the Scripture, especially The Old Testament, have you not seen where The LORD physically "snatched" his people out of sure
destruction? Adam, Eve, Enoch, Noah and his family, Abram, Lot, Moses, Caleb, etc..?

Why could there not be a "spirtual" snatching, harpazo?

God Bless...
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Don't confuse 'Judgment' and 'Wrath'.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials all represent 'Judgment', but not all represent 'Wrath'.

Learn to see the 'events' of the End Times Scenario as events.

The 'Wrath of God', for example, is an 'event' - having a starting point in time and an ending point in time.

A careful examination of scripture will reveal that the 'Great Tribulation' (also an 'event' - scripture tells us when it starts and when it ends - relative to other 'events') ends before the 'Wrath of God' begins.

There is no overlap.

In fact, there are 'events' between the two:

Great Tribulation (ends)
Two Witnesses / Trumpet Events
Jesus appears (Second Coming)
Resurrection & Rapture
Wrath of God "poured out" on wicked

It is very straight-forward and easy to see - IF you look at the order of 'events' based on these criteria:

~ What happens before what?

~ What happens after what?

~ What happens at the same time as what?
just one question where is the Wrath of God and the Judgement happening?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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The Lord promised that we would rest with Him after our work on earth is done. He did not promise that we would have an "easy escape" path to get there...

'tribulation' - yes
'wrath' - no

'tribulation' is not 'wrath'

They are not the same.

They do not occur at the same time.

when you die are your works done? Context is important to that statement is it not?
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
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just one question where is the Wrath of God and the Judgement happening?
Just as important - Where is the First Resurrection as our Lord spoke it in Revelation.

by the word of the LORD
The Dead in Christ Rise FIRST,
After that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will be 'caught up'
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Just as important - Where is the First Resurrection as our Lord spoke it in Revelation.

by the word of the LORD
The Dead in Christ Rise FIRST,
After that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will be 'caught up'

you don't score points but asking another question and fail to answer the first question.

Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection from the dead and Now HE is the only resurrection and Life :).

Now .

just one question where is the Wrath of God and the Judgement happening?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Just as important - Where is the First Resurrection as our Lord spoke it in Revelation.

by the word of the LORD
The Dead in Christ Rise FIRST,
After that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will be 'caught up'

Therefore, the first resurrection is for the people of God; the second resurrection is for the judgment of unbelievers. The difference between these two groups is based on one's relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It is essential for every person to hear the good news and be saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) to receive eternal life (John 3:16).

AS Jesus said :)

John 5:29
nd come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Matthew25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
Nov 17, 2017
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Just as important - Where is the First Resurrection as our Lord spoke it in Revelation.

by the word of the LORD
The Dead in Christ Rise FIRST,
After that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will be 'caught up'
Question
Those who are His during this Age of Grace
1Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who is Revelation 7:9-14 referring to?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Question
Those who are His during this Age of Grace
1Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who is Revelation 7:9-14 referring to?
it says those who came out of the Great tribulation and list the tribes

now who are those in Rev 5:11-12

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:


Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
 
Nov 17, 2017
427
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Good Morning!
it says those who came out of the Great tribulation and list the tribes
now are those in Rev 5:11-12
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
2 different groups of people
 
Nov 17, 2017
427
326
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Hi again!
it says those who came out of the Great tribulation and list the tribes

now who are those in Rev 5:11-12

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:


Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
Question:
2Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

I know this ties into the discussion topic.

This is what I understand, correct me (in Spirit).
The "He" being referred to is Holy Spirit, the Restrainer Who is in ALL beleivers.
When He is taken out of the way, we go with Him.
i.e Harpazo....

No?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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That's basically what I said, so we agree.

However there is one appointed resurrection of the dead at the last day that has been taught consistantly in prophecy.
Jesus himself spoke of it 4 times in John Chapter 6.
If there was not one main resurrection, Paul wouldn't have spoken of it the way he did in 1 Thess 4.


We can't avoid it. He is coming in glory. Everyone will see him and one of the components of his return
will be our resurrection to greet him.
I'm glad to hear that we are reaching an accord of Sorts. I would recommend that you do a very Deliberate study of the term "day" in scripture. As TDW has pointed out again and again and again, Many Christians believe that it is a specific particular 24-hour period which it definitely is not.....In the vast majority of cases!

I would urge you to read Everything that TDW Has posted on that particular subject..... you will come to a conclusion that is different from the one you now hold.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
5,466
3,688
113
Hello!

Indeed!
Question?
In all the Scripture, especially The Old Testament, have you not seen where The LORD physically "snatched" his people out of sure
destruction? Adam, Eve, Enoch, Noah and his family, Abram, Lot, Moses, Caleb, etc..?

Why could there not be a "spirtual" snatching, harpazo?

God Bless...
That's a lot to unpack.

I'm fine with implied references in scripture. As long as we don't rely on them too heavily in place of plainly stated prophecy.
We could take them on a case by case basis but barring Enoch I don't see that any of them were harpazoed (new word :LOL:)
from the earth to heaven. Most of them endured harship while they waited for God's deliverance on earth.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
9,178
4,976
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it says those who came out of the Great tribulation and list the tribes

now who are those in Rev 5:11-12

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:


Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
Revelation 7 is a proof text which differentiates these groups. The 24 elders are certainly not To be confused with any other group. They are of course the Church now in heaven, Glorified to the status that has been bequeathed to them According to the promises of God.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,921
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Hi again!

Question:
2Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

I know this ties into the discussion topic.

This is what I understand, correct me (in Spirit).
The "He" being referred to is Holy Spirit, the Restrainer Who is in ALL believers.
When He is taken out of the way, we go with Him.
i.e Harpazo....

No?
Second Thessalonians chapter 2 is speaking about the Great Apostasy of the church " falling away " and the revealing of the Anti-Christ.