How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
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The taken is a BAD thing, not a good thing.

Have you ever studied that word?

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"


What exactly is bad about that word? Doesn't Christ take people to him via rapture?

Luk 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Same word and meaning here.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I'm sure you know this is rapture and guess what? The same exact word and meaning is here too. The one taken is a reference to the rapture.

The one left ( this word means to divorce, leave to die and reject) are those left to suffer God's wrath and possibly die.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
Have you ever studied that word?

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"


What exactly is bad about that word? Doesn't Christ take people to him via rapture?

Luk 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Same word and meaning here.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I'm sure you know this is rapture and guess what? The same exact word and meaning is here too. The one taken is a reference to the rapture.

The one left ( this word means to divorce, leave to die and reject) are those left to suffer God's wrath and possibly die.
It can mean something different in different contexts--I said that it says "As it was in the days of Noah--one will be taken the other left"--those taken were the ones 'taken' by the flood--the eight were those that were left--it's right there in the same chapter. Also I quoted Zechariah which mirrors the same verse. Please READ the whole of what someone writes, not just one bit, otherwise it's pointless to have a counterargument if you don't have all the facts. Also, I Qouted scripture whereas you gave a variety of meanings--the meaning MUST be in context. Of course words mean something entirely different used in a different context--e.g. He FELL off a cliff. He FELL in love. He FELL over laughing. He FELLED the tree.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
The danger of premillienialism is that it DENIES that Christ after his ascension is REIGNING NOW.
No, the real danger is that statement is completely unbiblical.

Jesus is NOT reigning over His enemies now - according to Scripture

To reign means to rule over people and have complete control. Look around at the world. ISIS is murdering Christians and harming the growth of the gospel. The world is full is false gods and religions and evil practices.

It is clear someone else reigns this wicked, morally corrupt world currently:

Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Prince here doesn't mean second in command or something like we think in modern English, it means the ruler, the first in rank or power:

G758
a?´????
archo¯n
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.


G758
a?´????
archo¯n
Thayer Definition:
1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: present participle of G757
Citing in TDNT: 1:488, 81

According to Christ, the ruler of this world was to come after Christ left. We know from Rev 12 that after He ascended there was a war in heaven and satan was cast to the Earth just as Christ said would happen. According to Jesus Christ himself, the one reigning/ruling the world after His ascension would be satan!

So when would Christ reign his enemies on the Earth?

Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?


Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luk 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Psa 110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

So when does Christ leave the right hand of God in heaven and come to the Earth to defeat his enemies and rule in the midst of those enemies? The second coming of course. We also see this depicted in Rev 19.


Amill asks, "Isn't Christ's kingdom reigning on the Earth now?"

No.


His reign here begins when the 7th trump sounds.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is the first time when Christ reigns literally over all kings and their kingdoms.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

His times would be specifically "the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" at the 7th trump! That is when he is actively and defacto King of Kings reigning over all Earthly kingdoms and reigning over his enemies with a rod of iron.

Here is what we know:

1. Christ said satan is the ruler of the world.
2. Christ's reign will begin when he leaves the right hand of God in heaven and comes to the Earth.
2a. That is the second coming at the 7th trump.


John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Christ knew his kingdom and reign here starts when he returned at the 7th trump.



Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Does this mean Christ died and resurrected himself right at this moment or was that a future thing he had authority to do?

It is the same with ruling. He has the authority now but is not yet excercising that authority because he is waiting for the right time.


Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

So in comparison he received the knowledge that in the future he and his saints would rule over the nations with a rod of iron.
That particular reign did not start when John had this vision, which was somewhere around Ad 93 or so. Even AD 70, which I disagree with, is still many decades after the cross. If Christ is reigning now with a rod of iron why the decades of delay after the cross? That makes no logical sense.

But understand both of the things he said he received from the Father were related to the future, everything makes logical and scriptural sense and matches perfectly with each other.


Heb_2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


This was written long after the cross and even at that time not all things were put under Him. That doesn't happen until the second coming.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
It can mean something different in different contexts

It's the same word and meaning in a well known rapture verse.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Not going to comment on this eh? The one taken is taken to Christ in the rapture. The word for LEFT is the one with a negative connotation.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
No, the real danger is that statement is completely unbiblical.

Jesus is NOT reigning over His enemies now - according to Scripture

To reign means to rule over people and have complete control. Look around at the world. ISIS is murdering Christians and harming the growth of the gospel. The world is full is false gods and religions and evil practices.

It is clear someone else reigns this wicked, morally corrupt world currently:

Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Prince here doesn't mean second in command or something like we think in modern English, it means the ruler, the first in rank or power:

G758
a?´????
archo¯n
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.


G758
a?´????
archo¯n
Thayer Definition:
1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: present participle of G757
Citing in TDNT: 1:488, 81

According to Christ, the ruler of this world was to come after Christ left. We know from Rev 12 that after He ascended there was a war in heaven and satan was cast to the Earth just as Christ said would happen. According to Jesus Christ himself, the one reigning/ruling the world after His ascension would be satan!

So when would Christ reign his enemies on the Earth?

Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?


Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luk 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Psa 110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

So when does Christ leave the right hand of God in heaven and come to the Earth to defeat his enemies and rule in the midst of those enemies? The second coming of course. We also see this depicted in Rev 19.


Amill asks, "Isn't Christ's kingdom reigning on the Earth now?"

No.


His reign here begins when the 7th trump sounds.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is the first time when Christ reigns literally over all kings and their kingdoms.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

His times would be specifically "the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" at the 7th trump! That is when he is actively and defacto King of Kings reigning over all Earthly kingdoms and reigning over his enemies with a rod of iron.

Here is what we know:

1. Christ said satan is the ruler of the world.
2. Christ's reign will begin when he leaves the right hand of God in heaven and comes to the Earth.
2a. That is the second coming at the 7th trump.


John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Christ knew his kingdom and reign here starts when he returned at the 7th trump.



Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Does this mean Christ died and resurrected himself right at this moment or was that a future thing he had authority to do?

It is the same with ruling. He has the authority now but is not yet excercising that authority because he is waiting for the right time.


Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

So in comparison he received the knowledge that in the future he and his saints would rule over the nations with a rod of iron.
That particular reign did not start when John had this vision, which was somewhere around Ad 93 or so. Even AD 70, which I disagree with, is still many decades after the cross. If Christ is reigning now with a rod of iron why the decades of delay after the cross? That makes no logical sense.

But understand both of the things he said he received from the Father were related to the future, everything makes logical and scriptural sense and matches perfectly with each other.


Heb_2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


This was written long after the cross and even at that time not all things were put under Him. That doesn't happen until the second coming.
What would you make of this
It's the same word and meaning in a well known rapture verse.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Not going to comment on this eh? The one taken is taken to Christ in the rapture. The word for LEFT is the one with a negative connotation.
Maybe look again: They asked Jesus where they would be taken to

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
What would you make of this


Maybe look again: They asked Jesus where they would be taken to

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”
Yes the raptured/taken saints are taken to Armageddon to witness the slaughter. They are here:

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Christ took them there. Christ did not take the army of beast there though. Satan and the two beasts did that.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,619
113
No, the real danger is that statement is completely unbiblical.

Jesus is NOT reigning over His enemies now - according to Scripture

To reign means to rule over people and have complete control. Look around at the world. ISIS is murdering Christians and harming the growth of the gospel. The world is full is false gods and religions and evil practices.

It is clear someone else reigns this wicked, morally corrupt world currently:

Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Prince here doesn't mean second in command or something like we think in modern English, it means the ruler, the first in rank or power:

G758
a?´????
archo¯n
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.


G758
a?´????
archo¯n
Thayer Definition:
1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: present participle of G757
Citing in TDNT: 1:488, 81

According to Christ, the ruler of this world was to come after Christ left. We know from Rev 12 that after He ascended there was a war in heaven and satan was cast to the Earth just as Christ said would happen. According to Jesus Christ himself, the one reigning/ruling the world after His ascension would be satan!

So when would Christ reign his enemies on the Earth?

Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?


Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luk 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Psa 110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

So when does Christ leave the right hand of God in heaven and come to the Earth to defeat his enemies and rule in the midst of those enemies? The second coming of course. We also see this depicted in Rev 19.


Amill asks, "Isn't Christ's kingdom reigning on the Earth now?"

No.


His reign here begins when the 7th trump sounds.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is the first time when Christ reigns literally over all kings and their kingdoms.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

His times would be specifically "the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" at the 7th trump! That is when he is actively and defacto King of Kings reigning over all Earthly kingdoms and reigning over his enemies with a rod of iron.

Here is what we know:

1. Christ said satan is the ruler of the world.
2. Christ's reign will begin when he leaves the right hand of God in heaven and comes to the Earth.
2a. That is the second coming at the 7th trump.


John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Christ knew his kingdom and reign here starts when he returned at the 7th trump.



Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Does this mean Christ died and resurrected himself right at this moment or was that a future thing he had authority to do?

It is the same with ruling. He has the authority now but is not yet excercising that authority because he is waiting for the right time.


Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

So in comparison he received the knowledge that in the future he and his saints would rule over the nations with a rod of iron.
That particular reign did not start when John had this vision, which was somewhere around Ad 93 or so. Even AD 70, which I disagree with, is still many decades after the cross. If Christ is reigning now with a rod of iron why the decades of delay after the cross? That makes no logical sense.

But understand both of the things he said he received from the Father were related to the future, everything makes logical and scriptural sense and matches perfectly with each other.


Heb_2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


This was written long after the cross and even at that time not all things were put under Him. That doesn't happen until the second coming.
If the Lord Jesus Christ is not exerting His reign......undoubtedly it is according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself.

The Lord Jesus Christ never was nor will ever be a victim of anyone, anywhere anytime, nor is the plan of salvation an ad hoc patch up job for a universe that has spun out of God's control.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,388
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113
"Your Kingdom come
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven"



"premillennialist" "amillennialist" all these theological labels & terms drive me up the wall.
I still don't remember which one is which because I file it under forget every time I read about it. :sleep:

The Messiah (Jesus) will rule & reign on the earth. It's as simple as that. It doesn't take a load of complicated
explanation. We have to throw out far too much scripture to make the Bible say otherwise. In some cases
whole books would have to be disposed of.


Isaiah 2

2 In the last days

the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

3 Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”

The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.




 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,388
5,729
113

Psalm 2

4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.

5 He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,

6 ‘I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain.’

7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

He said to me, ‘You are my son;
today I have become your father.

8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.

9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.’

10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.

12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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The person posting is talking about WHERE the pre-trib rapture idea came from, not trying to prove it false from a hermeneutical standpoint. For example, I could say putting a tree up in your house for Christmas or having a yule log has pagan roots and then give an example of how we adopted it from the Germans. I don't need to show any verses,

(though here is one showing it was a pagan practice: "A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.--Jeremiah 10)

I can simply give historical evidence of the practice. You won't find any Christians or Jews observing this practice as well as you wont find any verses which speak of a pre-trib rapture. You will however find verses that are evidence that we will go through the tribulation if we are still alive. The one verse that pre-tribbers try to use is "one will be taken the other left" but if it is read in its context it says "As in the days of Noah...one will be taken the other left."

The taken is a BAD thing, not a good thing. The verse, as many other verses is mirrored in Zechariah Chapter 14:2-3: Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken. Read the context. It is the battle of Armageddon--the city is captured, homes ransacked, women raped. How important it is to read scripture in its context! The bible is very clear. Christ is coming only a SECOND time, not three times. He is not coming in secret--the whole world will see his coming--he is coming with a trumpet blast and SHOUT. "For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"--1st Thessalonians 4:16
The ONLY thing you got halfway correct is your tree example.

None of your other items are researched or true.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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This is who i am:

Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. 2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.b

This is where i am:

But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
again
You do not give a straight answer
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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It can mean something different in different contexts--I said that it says "As it was in the days of Noah--one will be taken the other left"--those taken were the ones 'taken' by the flood--the eight were those that were left--it's right there in the same chapter. Also I quoted Zechariah which mirrors the same verse. Please READ the whole of what someone writes, not just one bit, otherwise it's pointless to have a counterargument if you don't have all the facts. Also, I Qouted scripture whereas you gave a variety of meanings--the meaning MUST be in context. Of course words mean something entirely different used in a different context--e.g. He FELL off a cliff. He FELL in love. He FELL over laughing. He FELLED the tree.
amazing how you and others JETTISON CONTEXT.... then use "context" to " prove" THE OPPOSITE of the actual words of Jesus where he VIVIDLY depicts the " taken/ left" AS THE RAPTURE.

HOW DO YOU AND OTHERS rip through that so blindly and try to convince others to reframe Gods word??????
 
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I can only guess what you actually believe concerning the rapture.

Your MAIN DEAL is just a anti pretrib rapture rhetoric
How can you only guess??? i have consistently pointed to the words of the LORD - only.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord,
we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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How can you only guess??? i have consistently pointed to the words of the LORD - only.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord,
we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Both positions believe that.

Like i said...i have no idea of your direct beliefs.

Only your indirect deal.

Which is overzealous anti pretrib rapture.

Your main doctrine is not what you can defend.

It is a negative.

Anti pretrib rapture.

Your main doctrine is a negative
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
Paul seemed to think the rapture was doctine. He explaining the mystery said.

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

It is also found in the offerings of the appointed times which is God's calendar.
But according to jesus not every believer will be taken. Only the virgins with oil that are waiting in anticipation.
To discredit or disregard such a teaching on the basis of lack of proof in the scriptures is ignorance.
This is not the second coming of christ but jesus being a loving groom taking his bride out of harm's way.
It follows all the examples of customs and examples in the old testament.
Jesus said...in my father's house there are many mansions I go to prepare a place for you and will return to receive you to myself. That where I am you will be also.
Now the book of revelation tells us that after his physical return( to rescue Israel ) a thousand yr reign is to take place after which all of mankind to be judged and a new earth and heaven .
But none of that has occured yet so where is jesus? Seated at the right hand of God untill his enemies are made but a foot stool. God is in heaven...jesus in heaven.
Now the interesting thing is that the physical return of christ is that he returns with his saints. How'd did that happen? How'd we get to return with him?

It seems that after the physical return of our king all things take place on the earth ( Correct me if I'm wrong) then a new earth and heaven is to be brought into the picture.

Could be missing a lot here dunno.
 
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Both positions believe that.

Like i said...i have no idea of your direct beliefs.

Only your indirect deal.

Which is overzealous anti pretrib rapture.

Your main doctrine is not what you can defend.

It is a negative.

Anti pretrib rapture.

There is no pre-trib rapture in 1 Thess 4 - How do we know this - easy, go back to 1 Thess 1:10

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

Why did Paul say this twice = His Coming is the Resurrection
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Paul seemed to think the rapture was doctine. He explaining the mystery said.

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

It is also found in the offerings of the appointed times which is God's calendar.
But according to jesus not every believer will be taken. Only the virgins with oil that are waiting in anticipation.
To discredit or disregard such a teaching on the basis of lack of proof in the scriptures is ignorance.
This is not the second coming of christ but jesus being a loving groom taking his bride out of harm's way.
It follows all the examples of customs and examples in the old testament.
Jesus said...in my father's house there are many mansions I go to prepare a place for you and will return to receive you to myself. That where I am you will be also.
Now the book of revelation tells us that after his physical return( to rescue Israel ) a thousand yr reign is to take place after which all of mankind to be judged and a new earth and heaven .
But none of that has occured yet so where is jesus? Seated at the right hand of God untill his enemies are made but a foot stool. God is in heaven...jesus in heaven.
Now the interesting thing is that the physical return of christ is that he returns with his saints. How'd did that happen? How'd we get to return with him?

It seems that after the physical return of our king all things take place on the earth ( Correct me if I'm wrong) then a new earth and heaven is to be brought into the picture.

Could be missing a lot here dunno.
You changed some words to Pauls words which was not in order of his doctrine nor the truth of Scripture.

Here is what the Apostle Paul & Scripture proclaim: 1 Thess 1:10

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

1.) wait for His Coming
2.) the Resurrection
3.) delivered from the coming wrath = the wrath of the Lamb = Revelation 6:16

1 Thess 4: 13-18

The Apostle Paul again repeats his words:

the dead in Christ rise FIRST
after that
, we who are alive and remain will be caught up

The Apostle Paul's teachings are focused on His Coming and the Resurrection - FIRST FIRST FIRST = always FIRST

Our LORD said: I AM the RESURRECTION - HE never said Iam the rapture - get it right and be Right.

Revelation never says pre-trib rapture - never - but it does state where and when the RESURRECTION occurs.

Note: When i say 'when' it is not referring to a day or hour which only the Father knows.
 
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So in your mind you think lot and noah were gathered after the judgement