How To Be Un-Saved

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Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
2,900
200
63
#1
This was on my Disqus this morning by CS Berean, and it was so good, I thought I'd share it here.


If a Born-Again Christian willingly chooses to lose their salvation, after receiving Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and repenting of their sin (Acts 2:38, 16:31; Rom 10:9-10), the common-sense, logical reality is that God, the Father, would have to ask Jesus, God the Son, to give back His gift of love to Him and fail to honor His promise to never cast them out (Jn 6:37) and ask God, the Holy Spirit to disobey the Father's commands and permanently withdraw His presence. The person would have to un-drink the water of eternal life given by Jesus and so that they will be thirsty again (Jn 4:14).

Jesus would have to do the following:

Quit as their defense attorney (1 Jn 2:1)
No longer protect or keep them safe (Jn 17:9-12)
Divorce them (Rev 19:7)
Rescind their citizenship of Heaven (Jn 15:16; Eph 2:12-13,19)
Put them back into the world (Jn 17:16)
Blot out their names from the book of life (Rev 3:5)
Allow death and life, angels and rulers, things present and things to come, powers, height, and depth, and anything else in all creation, to separate them from the love of God found in Him (Rom 8:38-39)
No longer be their advocate before the Father (1 John 2:1)
Make them an un-new creation (2 Cor 5:17);
Make them un-near to Him (Eph 2:12-13,19)
Un-bury them and un-baptize them so that they will no longer walk in newness of life(Rom 6:4)
Un-crucify their old nature (Gal 2:20)
Un-adopt them (Rom 8:23)
Un-circumcise them (Col 2:11)
Un-complete them (Col 2:9-10)
Un-author their faith (Heb 12:2)
Un-finish their faith (Heb 12:2)
Un-hold them from the firm grasp of His hand (John 10:28-29)
Un-buy and refund the payment He made by His blood
Un-predestine them so they can no longer be conformed to His image
Un-sanctify them (John 17:17; Heb 10:14)
Un-deliver them from the domain of darkness (Col 1:13)
Un-transfer them out of His kingdom, where they were once conditionally sanctified daily (Rom 8:28-31; Eph 1:11)
Un-call them (Rom 8:30,9:24,; 1 Cor 1:2,9; Gal 5:13; Eph 1:18)
Un-justify them (Rom 3:24,28,5:9,10:10; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:7)
Un-glorify them (Rom 8:25, 28-31)
Un-cancel all their spiritual debts (Col 2:13-14)
Un-seal them (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5; Eph 1:13, 4:30)
Un-wash them (Tutus 3:5)
Un-forgive them of all their sins (1 Cor 6:11)
Un-forget their sins (Heb 10:17)
Un-consider them holy (Eph 1:4)
Un-consider them blameless in His sight (Eph 1:4, 2:8; Rom 8:9,11:6)
Un-buy them (1 Cor: 6:19-20, 7:23-24)
Un-born them (1 Jn 2:29, 3:9, 4:7, 5:1,4,18)
Move out from living within them as the new Holy of Holies (1 John 2:19, 3:6,9; Rom 8:9)
Revoke their position of no longer living in His new nature (Rom 8:9)
Rescind and fail to honor His promise to never leave and forsake them (Heb 13:5)
Go back on and fail to honor His promise to never cast them out (Jn 6:37).

God, the Holy Spirit, who was given as a guarantee (2 Cor 5:5) would have to do the following:
Cut them out of His Will as co-heirs with Jesus (Rom 8:17).
Un-fill them (becoming un-Born-Again) (Col 2:9-10);
Un-anoint them (1 John 2:27)
Stop and undo His good work begun in them (Phil 1:6, 2:13)
Fail to honor His promise to keep them from stumbling until the end when Jesus comes again (1 Cor 1:8; Jude 1:24-25).

To say that an individual could be separated from the love of God or remove themselves from His firm grasp, and His promise to NEVER leave them, after He bought and paid for them, and they are His possession, as well as His dwelling place, the Holy of Holies, is at the very least, illogical and intellectually incongruous.

When God makes a promise, He NEVER reneges on, or breaks, His word.

Just saying...
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,116
134
63
#2
Budman;3473471[COLOR=#353a3d said:
and fail to honor His promise to never cast them out (Jn 6:37) [/COLOR]
Make sure you read promises correctly: The promise in John 6:37 is given to those who are believing and are coming to Christ. It is not given to those who are not believing. He never casts out those who are believing in Him.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
3,430
255
0
#3
I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Cor 1:4-9)
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,981
1,326
113
#4
Make sure you read promises correctly: The promise in John 6:37 is given to those who are believing and are coming to Christ. It is not given to those who are not believing. He never casts out those who are believing in Him.
He still would have to go back on his promise, Because at the moment he first had faith, He promised to give them all those things, If the person for whatever reason stopped believeing. As the OP said, God would have to go back on his word. Ie, the word NEVER does not mean never.
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,981
1,326
113
#5
I would like to add one. That God would have to admit he made a mistake. Because he would have to admit he did not know the person would later change his or her mind.

 
D

Depleted

Guest
#6
Make sure you read promises correctly: The promise in John 6:37 is given to those who are believing and are coming to Christ. It is not given to those who are not believing. He never casts out those who are believing in Him.
Um, yeah? But "Born-again Christian" covered that.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,116
134
63
#7
He still would have to go back on his promise, Because at the moment he first had faith, He promised to give them all those things, If the person for whatever reason stopped believeing. As the OP said, God would have to go back on his word. Ie, the word NEVER does not mean never.
So I tell you: if you keep on taking care of my property then I will never take you to court or sue you.
(crazy example, I know . . . LOL! :p)

You at a moment in time begin to take care of my property, but then you stop taking care of my property. Does my promise to never take you to court hold?

Jesus said: he that keeps on believing in me shall never thirst,. . . and him that keeps coming to me I will in no wise cast out.
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,981
1,326
113
#8
So I tell you: if you keep on taking care of my property then I will never take you to court or sue you.
(crazy example, I know . . . LOL! :p)

You at a moment in time begin to take care of my property, but then you stop taking care of my property. Does my promise to never take you to court hold?
No because You did not give me your property. You gave me something and said I must earn that something (I must take care of it) Thus you made a condition which must be kept to earn the thing you were given or you will sue me for whatever reason (i would hae said take it back)


Jesus said: he that keeps on believing in me shall never thirst,. . . and him that keeps coming to me I will in no wise cast out.
No. He said he who believes in me will never thirst,. He never said he who believes in me will never thirst as long as they continue to believ (you added those words)

He compaired this with people who kept coming to him for a handout, Because they ate food which did not endure forever. They ate food which died. Thus their hunger and thirst would return.

Ie, if you believe in me, at that moment, I will give you the food and drink. Which will endure forever. Meaning you will never hunger or thirst.


He did the same to the woman at the well in John 4. Where he said if she had come to him, he would give her water which would endure to eternal life.

He did not tell her she had to keep coming (believing) He told her to come and drink, and it will endure forever.

Unlike you Jesus did not make a condition.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,116
134
63
#9
No. He said he who believes in me will never thirst,. He never said he who believes in me will never thirst as long as they continue to believ (you added those words)



He compaired this with people who kept coming to him for a handout, Because they ate food which did not endure forever. They ate food which died. Thus their hunger and thirst would return.

Ie, if you believe in me, at that moment, I will give you the food and drink. Which will endure forever. Meaning you will never hunger or thirst.


He did the same to the woman at the well in John 4. Where he said if she had come to him, he would give her water which would endure to eternal life.

He did not tell her she had to keep coming (believing) He told her to come and drink, and it will endure forever.

Unlike you Jesus did not make a condition.

What he said is this: the one who keep on believing in me (Greek present tense) will never thirst

That is a promise that holds 100%!! He meant exactly what he said - no more and no less! I will add nothing more nor take anything away from what is said by Jesus.

That is not a "condition"; it is a promise.

 

Deade

Senior Member
Dec 17, 2017
3,210
1,105
113
72
#10
Jesus said He would lose none of those He chose:
John 17:12: "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Jesus even talked about how his chosen would not be deceived:
Matt. 24:24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

If our Lord Jesus has started the work in you, He will finish it.


7011.gif
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,981
1,326
113
#11

What he said is this: the one who keep on believing in me (Greek present tense) will never thirst


That’s YOUR interpretation. It has to fit with context. or your interpretation fails. I proved your interpretation fails. Because it does not fit with what Jesus said.
That is a promise that holds 100%!! He meant exactly what he said - no more and no less! I will add nothing more nor take anything away from what is said by Jesus.
Yet you took away from what Jesus said. Because he said they would never hunger at the moment they believe. If they ever hungered agasin, Jesus is a liar.

If I offer a million dollars to whoever believes (Jesus gift far outweighs this gift, keep that in mind, they do not even compair) and you come to me and say you have faith I will give him a million dollars. And I give it to him, it is his, Whether he stops believing I will give it to him or not (yeah I know this sounds prety dumb, and yeah it should) it is still his, when you give someone a gift, It is no longer your to take back.

That is not a "condition"; it is a promise.
Your right, it is a promise, If stopping believe well cause that promise to cease, then your continued belief was the condition. (Ie, You had to work to earn it by continuing to believe in his offering of eternal life to all who believe, ie you had to continue to believe you were unworthy, ie you had to continue to believe you were headed to hell, and only the promise of God can save you)

ie, you had to believe something which is far more valuable (by an infinite value) than a millions dollars, which you recieved is no longer needed.
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,858
897
113
#12
1 john 2 19


They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,116
134
63
#13
[/FONT][/COLOR]That’s YOUR interpretation. It has to fit with context. or your interpretation fails. I proved your interpretation fails. Because it does not fit with what Jesus said.


Yet you took away from what Jesus said. Because he said they would never hunger at the moment they believe. If they ever hungered agasin, Jesus is a liar.

If I offer a million dollars to whoever believes (Jesus gift far outweighs this gift, keep that in mind, they do not even compair) and you come to me and say you have faith I will give him a million dollars. And I give it to him, it is his, Whether he stops believing I will give it to him or not (yeah I know this sounds prety dumb, and yeah it should) it is still his, when you give someone a gift, It is no longer your to take back.



Your right, it is a promise, If stopping believe well cause that promise to cease, then your continued belief was the condition. (Ie, You had to work to earn it by continuing to believe in his offering of eternal life to all who believe, ie you had to continue to believe you were unworthy, ie you had to continue to believe you were headed to hell, and only the promise of God can save you)

ie, you had to believe something which is far more valuable (by an infinite value) than a millions dollars, which you recieved is no longer needed.


Say what you like, I am sticking to what the Greek text says:

the one who keeps believing in me (Greek present tense) will never thirst

ho pisteuon eis eme ou me dipsesei popote John 6:35b
 

Ralph-

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
3,065
241
63
#14
1 john 2 19


They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
So which is it? Is the person who says he is saved but living in sin still saved despite his sin, or is he showing himself to have never been born again to begin with?
 
Sep 14, 2017
900
19
0
#15
This was on my Disqus this morning by CS Berean, and it was so good, I thought I'd share it here.


If a Born-Again Christian willingly chooses to lose their salvation, after receiving Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and repenting of their sin (Acts 2:38, 16:31; Rom 10:9-10), the common-sense, logical reality is that God, the Father, would have to ask Jesus, God the Son, to give back His gift of love to Him and fail to honor His promise to never cast them out (Jn 6:37) and ask God, the Holy Spirit to disobey the Father's commands and permanently withdraw His presence. The person would have to un-drink the water of eternal life given by Jesus and so that they will be thirsty again (Jn 4:14).

Jesus would have to do the following:

Quit as their defense attorney (1 Jn 2:1)
No longer protect or keep them safe (Jn 17:9-12)
Divorce them (Rev 19:7)
Rescind their citizenship of Heaven (Jn 15:16; Eph 2:12-13,19)
Put them back into the world (Jn 17:16)
Blot out their names from the book of life (Rev 3:5)
Allow death and life, angels and rulers, things present and things to come, powers, height, and depth, and anything else in all creation, to separate them from the love of God found in Him (Rom 8:38-39)
No longer be their advocate before the Father (1 John 2:1)
Make them an un-new creation (2 Cor 5:17);
Make them un-near to Him (Eph 2:12-13,19)
Un-bury them and un-baptize them so that they will no longer walk in newness of life(Rom 6:4)
Un-crucify their old nature (Gal 2:20)
Un-adopt them (Rom 8:23)
Un-circumcise them (Col 2:11)
Un-complete them (Col 2:9-10)
Un-author their faith (Heb 12:2)
Un-finish their faith (Heb 12:2)
Un-hold them from the firm grasp of His hand (John 10:28-29)
Un-buy and refund the payment He made by His blood
Un-predestine them so they can no longer be conformed to His image
Un-sanctify them (John 17:17; Heb 10:14)
Un-deliver them from the domain of darkness (Col 1:13)
Un-transfer them out of His kingdom, where they were once conditionally sanctified daily (Rom 8:28-31; Eph 1:11)
Un-call them (Rom 8:30,9:24,; 1 Cor 1:2,9; Gal 5:13; Eph 1:18)
Un-justify them (Rom 3:24,28,5:9,10:10; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:7)
Un-glorify them (Rom 8:25, 28-31)
Un-cancel all their spiritual debts (Col 2:13-14)
Un-seal them (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5; Eph 1:13, 4:30)
Un-wash them (Tutus 3:5)
Un-forgive them of all their sins (1 Cor 6:11)
Un-forget their sins (Heb 10:17)
Un-consider them holy (Eph 1:4)
Un-consider them blameless in His sight (Eph 1:4, 2:8; Rom 8:9,11:6)
Un-buy them (1 Cor: 6:19-20, 7:23-24)
Un-born them (1 Jn 2:29, 3:9, 4:7, 5:1,4,18)
Move out from living within them as the new Holy of Holies (1 John 2:19, 3:6,9; Rom 8:9)
Revoke their position of no longer living in His new nature (Rom 8:9)
Rescind and fail to honor His promise to never leave and forsake them (Heb 13:5)
Go back on and fail to honor His promise to never cast them out (Jn 6:37).

God, the Holy Spirit, who was given as a guarantee (2 Cor 5:5) would have to do the following:
Cut them out of His Will as co-heirs with Jesus (Rom 8:17).
Un-fill them (becoming un-Born-Again) (Col 2:9-10);
Un-anoint them (1 John 2:27)
Stop and undo His good work begun in them (Phil 1:6, 2:13)
Fail to honor His promise to keep them from stumbling until the end when Jesus comes again (1 Cor 1:8; Jude 1:24-25).

To say that an individual could be separated from the love of God or remove themselves from His firm grasp, and His promise to NEVER leave them, after He bought and paid for them, and they are His possession, as well as His dwelling place, the Holy of Holies, is at the very least, illogical and intellectually incongruous.

When God makes a promise, He NEVER reneges on, or breaks, His word.

Just saying...
Are you going to cite the author or take credit for the whole thing?

You gonna be like JM & cut & paste?
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#17
Bud, I hope you don't mind, but...

Getting back to the first post, (instead of the nonstop argument), something I read today from Spurgeon. It too includes what the Lord has given us.

“Salvation is of the Lord.”
- John 2:9

Salvation is the work of God. It is he alone who quickens the soul “dead in trespasses and sins,” and it is he also who maintains the soul in its spiritual life. He is both “Alpha and Omega.” “Salvation is of the Lord.” If I am prayerful, God makes me prayerful; if I have graces, they are God’s gifts to me; if I hold on in a consistent life, it is because he upholds me with his hand. I do nothing whatever towards my own preservation, except what God himself first does in me. Whatever I have, all my goodness is of the Lord alone. Wherein I sin, that is my own; but wherein I act rightly, that is of God, wholly and completely. If I have repulsed a spiritual enemy, the Lord’s strength nerved my arm. Do I live before men a consecrated life? It is not I, but Christ who liveth in me. Am I sanctified? I did not cleanse myself: God’s Holy Spirit sanctifies me. Am I weaned from the world? I am weaned by God’s chastisements sanctified to my good. Do I grow in knowledge? The great Instructor teaches me. All my jewels were fashioned by heavenly art. I find in God all that I want; but I find in myself nothing but sin and misery. “He only is my rock and my salvation.” Do I feed on the Word? That Word would be no food for me unless the Lord made it food for my soul, and helped me to feed upon it. Do I live on the manna which comes down from heaven? What is that manna but Jesus Christ himself incarnate, whose body and whose blood I eat and drink? Am I continually receiving fresh increase of strength? Where do I gather my might? My help cometh from heaven’s hills: without Jesus I can do nothing. As a branch cannot bring forth fruit except it abide in the vine, no more can I, except I abide in him. What Jonah learned in the great deep, let me learn this morning in my closet: “Salvation is of the Lord.”
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
4,858
897
113
#20
So which is it? Is the person who says he is saved but living in sin still saved despite his sin, or is he showing himself to have never been born again to begin with?
"which is it"
strawman
:rolleyes:

those who stop believing on His name were never born again

those who become like the reprobates were never born again

________________

john 6


27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.