How to tell the difference between carpenters and the lion?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D

Depleted

Guest
#1
Real question, as in I don't know. So I'm asking if you do.

I've been studying the Book of Hosea recently, and it talks about a lion coming into Israel to destroy. Israel -- what is left of God's people. Not Israel the larger nation. The lion was clearly the Lord himself and he was coming into his own church to wipe out those who will not believe nor worship him to protect his remnant of followers.

I'm a literalist, in many ways, so I was picturing a real lion coming into a real church on Sunday morning and he kills all those who aren't believers. Imagine the horror if you were in that church that morning? Somewhere along the line, you notice he's attacking only the the ones who come every Sunday, but you know they don't believe. And then he goes after your best buddy, or your spouse. You want to do something, but you're frozen in place watching this. And it hits your mind, "Will he kill me too?"

Most frightening is you know who the lion is, so you know the judgement is real. It IS his righteous wrath in a house of his people, because many claim to be his people, but he knows the difference. It has to be horrifying, even if you walk away from it later.

But then, Spurgeon had a sermon about God raising up four carpenters to fight evil from the four corners of the earth to protect his people.

“And the Lord shewed me four carpenters.” Zec_1:20
In the vision described in this chapter, the prophet saw four terrible horns. They were pushing this way and that way, dashing down the strongest and the mightiest; and the prophet asked, “What are these?” The answer was, “These are the horns which have scattered Israel.” He saw before him a representation of those powers which had oppressed the church of God. There were four horns; for the church is attacked from all quarters. Well might the prophet have felt dismayed; but on a sudden there appeared before him four carpenters. He asked, “What shall these do?” These are the men whom God hath found to break those horns in pieces. God will always find men for his work, and he will find them at the right time. The prophet did not see the carpenters first, when there was nothing to do, but first the “horns,” and then the “carpenters.” Moreover, the Lord finds enough men. He did not find three carpenters, but four; there were four horns, and there must be four workmen. God finds the right men; not four men with pens to write; not four architects to draw plans; but four carpenters to do rough work. Rest assured, you who tremble for the ark of God, that when the “horns” grow troublesome, the “carpenters” will be found. You need not fret concerning the weakness of the church of God at any moment; there may be growing up in obscurity the valiant reformer who will shake the nations: Chrysostoms may come forth from our Ragged Schools, and Augustines from the thickest darkness of London’s poverty. The Lord knows where to find his servants. He hath in ambush a multitude of mighty men, and at his word they shall start up to the battle; “for the battle is the Lord’s,” and he shall get to himself the victory. Let us abide faithful to Christ, and he, in the right time, will raise up for us a defence, whether it be in the day of our personal need, or in the season of peril to his Church.

Yay, Lord, for raising up the right people at the right time!

Is my question making more sense now? How do we know if the battle being waged at us is the Lion of God or four-carpenters-worthy? Because obviously there is a battle going on inside the church right now. So how do we know who is waging it? And, how about this for the kicker? Let us not assume we're all on the lion's side. Because, honestly? Israel thought that, and they weren't. That's what the book of Hosea is all about -- God's wrath on religious people.

That was the point in history when Israel, as a larger nation, died. This seems to be the point in history where our nations are dying. So, how do we know if God will be raising up four carpenters or if the Lion has come? And how do we know if we're due to become the Lion's meal, or the ones he is protecting? AND, are there four carpenters in the house? Because if this isn't the Lion at work, God is raising some carpenters right now. How do we know if we are carpenters?

Do not make this yet-another-thread-about-fortune-telling-our-future. (Another my-eschatology-is-right thread.) This is about knowing what's happening now, not what's happening in the future.
 

NayborBear

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2015
959
44
28
#2
You mean, something like this? Ezekiel 13

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore thus saith the Lord God; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;


 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
3,442
205
63
70
#3
Answer Lions have claws and carpenters have Nails
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#4
You mean, something like this? Ezekiel 13

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore thus saith the Lord God; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;
I could be wrong, but wasn't Zeke telling about a dispersion, as in, sooner or later God would bring his people home? Seems like spring cleaning with lye. (Thorough, harsh, but effective.) Hosea is more about cremation of those-who-aren't-his-peeps. They won't be cleansed when he's done. They're goners. Not even enough to feed worms with.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,773
538
113
#6
How do we know if the battle being waged at us is the Lion of God...
Well the apostle Peter makes it very clear that it is Satan who goes about as a ROARING LION, seeking whom he may devour. So you do you your answer in Scripture.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,012
221
63
#7
IF a lion literally came in the church building and started devouring someone, I highly doubt anyone would just sit there and await their turn to be devoured. People would be running, calling 911, trying to save the victim, and trying to kill the lion.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
2,916
39
48
#8
I'm a literalist, in many ways, so I was picturing a real lion coming into a real church on Sunday morning and he kills all those who aren't believers. Imagine the horror if you were in that church that morning? Somewhere along the line, you notice he's attacking only the the ones who come every Sunday, but you know they don't believe. And then he goes after your best buddy, or your spouse. You want to do something, but you're frozen in place watching this. And it hits your mind, "Will he kill me too?"

Most frightening is you know who the lion is, so you know the judgement is real. It IS his righteous wrath in a house of his people, because many claim to be his people, but he knows the difference. It has to be horrifying, even if you walk away from it later.
Belief in a cruel, evil God makes a cruel man - Thomas Paine


Texas Church Shooting: Who Were the Victims of the Sutherland Springs Massacre?


 
D

Depleted

Guest
#9
IF a lion literally came in the church building and started devouring someone, I highly doubt anyone would just sit there and await their turn to be devoured. People would be running, calling 911, trying to save the victim, and trying to kill the lion.
A. The lion is God, so where are you running to?
B. You can't run fast enough to get away from a lion.
C. You should read what happened at the Coliseum. Some of the Christians not only had to wait to be killed, they had to wait until the lions got hungry again, after eating the last Christians.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#10
Belief in a cruel, evil God makes a cruel man - Thomas Paine


Tacky excuse used for straw man argument at the expense of people removed.
So you and Paine have something in common -- you don't believe God?

Explains a lot.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
18,575
1,122
113
#11
We have prophecy of the Lord judging His adulterous wife, Israel, and giving her a certificate of divorce - also promising to redeem and restore her. but do we have the same kind of prophesy about the Bride of Christ?

There is a betrothal ceremony, and Israel went through it all - choosing, covenant, waiting for the hour, being taken by the groom. With us however we are in the midst of the steps, now waiting for that Groom to come, at an hour we do not know, then the feast, the consummation. We're told there must be a falling away, and that the Lord will send His harvesters at the end of the age. We're told He will separate His sheep from the goats, and that He will judge the whole earth. not to try to make this about eschatology, but i think it might be the case that what you're asking is exactly that, and that our present state is not an exact parallel to the nation that He calls His own, when they were in a position to be lawfully judged.

In the law of Moses, only the husband could initiate divorce. Not the wife. We are His betrothed - so are we looking for the signs of a court settlement for an annulment now? Or a bit early for that, seeing that He hasn't yet come to take us to Himself yet, as He dwelled in the midst of Israel, in His temple and tabernacle?
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#12
In 1979, I joined a church right after it had been torn into three from a charlatan. Many became friends. And later in that year, I saw a handsome man with an easy laugh, and twinkling eyes when he laughed. We became friends, and out of that friendship came dating, then marriage by the end of the next year. At our wedding, the church came, because who better to join us in our celebration than God's people? Our family in Christ?

We left that church two years later because we had to take a job that required a move, but before we left something wasn't right. They were still good, loving people, but something was off. Didn't know what then, but we have figured it out years later. The worship music was wonderful, except it wasn't worshiping the Lord. It was worshiping the people -- what they got from God, instead of worshiping God himself. And the sermons were lessons in how to get stuff -- nice upper-middle-class lives with American values, and how that made for our happiness. We tried going back when the job ended and we moved back, but it didn't feel right. But they were our people. Our friends. People who had stuck by us when hubby broke his back... kind of.

The elders of that church told John his gift was teaching. They were right. He is gifted to teach, except at that time he was missing something important -- the knowledge to teach. So he took an old preacher's list of must-have Christian books and headed to the reference section of the library to read them. In doing that, he figured out what was missing, (and taught me that. lol) God. God as the center of all we do. God as the reason for what we do.

And, he discovered Romans, even beyond Romans 8. We became Reformed by default, and someone we considered a friend asked us to leave that church because we were being rude. (Loved the people. Loved the worship. Couldn't hack the nonsense sermons, so we kept leaving after worship. Can't say she was wrong, because that is rude.)

We moved across the river then. (The river is the Delaware, so it was the difference in being New Jerseyites compared now to being Philadelphians. Don't know why, but that river is a clear demarcation line in these parts. Once you move across it, you don't return, no matter which side you move to.) Found a new church and went on about our lives.

Fast forward to January 2016 and hospital-induced-delusions. John had them because of his six weeks of being sedated, which caused 98% atrophy, and his nurse told me the best way to get him back fully into this reality was to have lots of visitors. (Reconnected to real people.) I asked him who he would like to know what happened and come visit him. Three people -- his brother, his best buddy from a longtime job, and an old friend he kept seeing after we left that church.

They all came, but the one he used to have breakfast with, from that church, was still a part of it. And on FB, as were many of our old friends from that church. 34 years since we last knew them, so we friended a bunch of old friends. And in doing so, we see where their lives have gone onto. One has helped produce the first-ever R-rated Christian movie, and he wants it to be okay for Christian movies to be X-rated, because parts of the Bible are X-rated. Some have become Catholic because "it's easier for someone else to tell me what the Bible means than to have to figure it out myself." And some are posting on and on about $20 "worship" tickets, (it's a concert, not worship. If you're paying to worship the Lord, something is wrong), and the joy of seeing gold sparkles coming through the vents during "worship services" and calling it "Shekhina Glory."

If you met these people, they're all very nice, very loving, very wholesome, (well, maybe not the guy who wants the X-rated Christian movie), look very Christian, but they aren't Christians. They are retired judges, mechanical engineers, maintenance managers for prestigious universities, pastors (who were never trained for the job, nor studied for it), and teachers. They are the pillars of their communities, and their opinions matter. But they aren't following Christ.

Mostly they are what the world sees as the good side of being Christian. But they aren't Christians.

That's the picture of the Lord's church I'm looking at, as I wonder if the lion isn't the Lord in his church to destroy the religious too.

And I see the same thing often on this site.

There are ten virgins waiting for the groom, but five didn't keep their lamps oiled. No, the groom hasn't come for the wedding ceremony, but when he does come, he will say, "I never knew you" to "good Christian people." Who is he saying that to? Because there is an assumption we're well wicked, but are we? 37 years ago, I thought my friends were well wicked.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,007
131
63
#13
In 1979, I joined a church right after it had been torn into three from a charlatan. Many became friends. And later in that year, I saw a handsome man with an easy laugh, and twinkling eyes when he laughed. We became friends, and out of that friendship came dating, then marriage by the end of the next year. At our wedding, the church came, because who better to join us in our celebration than God's people? Our family in Christ?

We left that church two years later because we had to take a job that required a move, but before we left something wasn't right. They were still good, loving people, but something was off. Didn't know what then, but we have figured it out years later. The worship music was wonderful, except it wasn't worshiping the Lord. It was worshiping the people -- what they got from God, instead of worshiping God himself. And the sermons were lessons in how to get stuff -- nice upper-middle-class lives with American values, and how that made for our happiness. We tried going back when the job ended and we moved back, but it didn't feel right. But they were our people. Our friends. People who had stuck by us when hubby broke his back... kind of.

The elders of that church told John his gift was teaching. They were right. He is gifted to teach, except at that time he was missing something important -- the knowledge to teach. So he took an old preacher's list of must-have Christian books and headed to the reference section of the library to read them. In doing that, he figured out what was missing, (and taught me that. lol) God. God as the center of all we do. God as the reason for what we do.

And, he discovered Romans, even beyond Romans 8. We became Reformed by default, and someone we considered a friend asked us to leave that church because we were being rude. (Loved the people. Loved the worship. Couldn't hack the nonsense sermons, so we kept leaving after worship. Can't say she was wrong, because that is rude.)

We moved across the river then. (The river is the Delaware, so it was the difference in being New Jerseyites compared now to being Philadelphians. Don't know why, but that river is a clear demarcation line in these parts. Once you move across it, you don't return, no matter which side you move to.) Found a new church and went on about our lives.

Fast forward to January 2016 and hospital-induced-delusions. John had them because of his six weeks of being sedated, which caused 98% atrophy, and his nurse told me the best way to get him back fully into this reality was to have lots of visitors. (Reconnected to real people.) I asked him who he would like to know what happened and come visit him. Three people -- his brother, his best buddy from a longtime job, and an old friend he kept seeing after we left that church.

They all came, but the one he used to have breakfast with, from that church, was still a part of it. And on FB, as were many of our old friends from that church. 34 years since we last knew them, so we friended a bunch of old friends. And in doing so, we see where their lives have gone onto. One has helped produce the first-ever R-rated Christian movie, and he wants it to be okay for Christian movies to be X-rated, because parts of the Bible are X-rated. Some have become Catholic because "it's easier for someone else to tell me what the Bible means than to have to figure it out myself." And some are posting on and on about $20 "worship" tickets, (it's a concert, not worship. If you're paying to worship the Lord, something is wrong), and the joy of seeing gold sparkles coming through the vents during "worship services" and calling it "Shekhina Glory."

If you met these people, they're all very nice, very loving, very wholesome, (well, maybe not the guy who wants the X-rated Christian movie), look very Christian, but they aren't Christians. They are retired judges, mechanical engineers, maintenance managers for prestigious universities, pastors (who were never trained for the job, nor studied for it), and teachers. They are the pillars of their communities, and their opinions matter. But they aren't following Christ.

Mostly they are what the world sees as the good side of being Christian. But they aren't Christians.

That's the picture of the Lord's church I'm looking at, as I wonder if the lion isn't the Lord in his church to destroy the religious too.

And I see the same thing often on this site.

There are ten virgins waiting for the groom, but five didn't keep their lamps oiled. No, the groom hasn't come for the wedding ceremony, but when he does come, he will say, "I never knew you" to "good Christian people." Who is he saying that to? Because there is an assumption we're well wicked, but are we? 37 years ago, I thought my friends were well wicked.

Thank you for sharing...

So many people were Christened as a baby and believe they are saved from hell... then live their life trying to be good when it suits etc..

Christians will pick and choose which part of GOD they like... tell the Lord to delay His coming... yet they declare themselves Christians.. one even apologised but she believed the Big Bang theory... yet a Christian...

Anyhow all the above are based on encounters.. and I pray i have oil in my lamp.. GOD knows our inner.. nothing hidden.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
18,575
1,122
113
#14
Well the apostle Peter makes it very clear that it is Satan who goes about as a ROARING LION, seeking whom he may devour. So you do you your answer in Scripture.

Nehemiah, please have a look here:

Yet I have been the LORD your God
Since the land of Egypt;
And you were not to know any god except Me,
For there is no savior besides Me.
I cared for you in the wilderness,
In the land of drought.
As they had their pasture, they became satisfied,
And being satisfied, their heart became proud;
Therefore they forgot Me.
So I will be like a lion to them;
Like a leopard I will lie in wait by the wayside.
I will encounter them like a bear robbed of her cubs,
And I will tear open their chests;
There I will also devour them like a lioness,
As a wild beast would tear them.
It is your destruction, O Israel,
That you are against Me, against your help.

(Hosea 13:4-9)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#15

Nehemiah, please have a look here:

Yet I have been the LORD your God
Since the land of Egypt;
And you were not to know any god except Me,
For there is no savior besides Me.
I cared for you in the wilderness,
In the land of drought.
As they had their pasture, they became satisfied,
And being satisfied, their heart became proud;
Therefore they forgot Me.
So I will be like a lion to them;
Like a leopard I will lie in wait by the wayside.
I will encounter them like a bear robbed of her cubs,
And I will tear open their chests;
There I will also devour them like a lioness,
As a wild beast would tear them.
It is your destruction, O Israel,
That you are against Me, against your help.

(Hosea 13:4-9)
Yeah, that one. And the same images keep showing up throughout the book -- a lion, a sword, and take-awayer of crops. It's a very frightening book. To see the Lord himself divorcing his people. I know he won't divorce his real people, but the land of Hosea was as prosperous and proud as 1950s-1960s America. Everything looked good. It just wasn't really good.
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
265
83
#16
I keep thinking of The One who said, "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it."

Maybe it is the place where I live (rural Calif), but I see more real worship in the churches today than "yesterday", and I see the Holy Spirit moving to prepare the bride of Christ for His return. There are more small bible study groups than ever - especially prayer groups. People are serious.

I know this is a little off from the discussion, but I am continually praising the Lord that He is building His church and allowing me to see it manifested. As the darkness gets darker, so also the light shines brighter. The real church is not in danger - only the counterfeit.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#17
I keep thinking of The One who said, "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it."

Maybe it is the place where I live (rural Calif), but I see more real worship in the churches today than "yesterday", and I see the Holy Spirit moving to prepare the bride of Christ for His return. There are more small bible study groups than ever - especially prayer groups. People are serious.

I know this is a little off from the discussion, but I am continually praising the Lord that He is building His church and allowing me to see it manifested. As the darkness gets darker, so also the light shines brighter. The real church is not in danger - only the counterfeit.
I know, but still horrifying to see friends and family become lion food.
 
Dec 4, 2017
906
14
0
#18
Real question, as in I don't know. So I'm asking if you do.

I've been studying the Book of Hosea recently, and it talks about a lion coming into Israel to destroy. Israel -- what is left of God's people. Not Israel the larger nation. The lion was clearly the Lord himself and he was coming into his own church to wipe out those who will not believe nor worship him to protect his remnant of followers.

I'm a literalist, in many ways, so I was picturing a real lion coming into a real church on Sunday morning and he kills all those who aren't believers. Imagine the horror if you were in that church that morning? Somewhere along the line, you notice he's attacking only the the ones who come every Sunday, but you know they don't believe. And then he goes after your best buddy, or your spouse. You want to do something, but you're frozen in place watching this. And it hits your mind, "Will he kill me too?"

Most frightening is you know who the lion is, so you know the judgement is real. It IS his righteous wrath in a house of his people, because many claim to be his people, but he knows the difference. It has to be horrifying, even if you walk away from it later.

But then, Spurgeon had a sermon about God raising up four carpenters to fight evil from the four corners of the earth to protect his people.


Yay, Lord, for raising up the right people at the right time!

Is my question making more sense now? How do we know if the battle being waged at us is the Lion of God or four-carpenters-worthy? Because obviously there is a battle going on inside the church right now. So how do we know who is waging it? And, how about this for the kicker? Let us not assume we're all on the lion's side. Because, honestly? Israel thought that, and they weren't. That's what the book of Hosea is all about -- God's wrath on religious people.

That was the point in history when Israel, as a larger nation, died. This seems to be the point in history where our nations are dying. So, how do we know if God will be raising up four carpenters or if the Lion has come? And how do we know if we're due to become the Lion's meal, or the ones he is protecting? AND, are there four carpenters in the house? Because if this isn't the Lion at work, God is raising some carpenters right now. How do we know if we are carpenters?

Do not make this yet-another-thread-about-fortune-telling-our-future. (Another my-eschatology-is-right thread.) This is about knowing what's happening now, not what's happening in the future.
Certainly an interesting scripture to meditate on. Something of 4 carpenters reminds me of a Tithe.




Having built a house of Prayer on the Foundation of Faith in the promises.

Praised be Adonai, Father of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who in the Messiah has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heaven. 4 In the Messiah he chose us in love before the creation of the universe to be holy and without defect in his presence. 5 He determined in advance that through Yeshua the Messiah we would be his sons — in keeping with his pleasure and purpose — 6 so that we would bring him praise commensurate with the glory of the grace he gave us through the Beloved One.





 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
265
83
#19
I know, but still horrifying to see friends and family become lion food.
I know that I am the optimist in this group, but instead of seeing my family and friends who are not Christian being "eaten", I see Jesus with them, working to draw them unto Himself. Because I prayed for them. And my faith MUST see those prayers being answered. And the more that I praise Him that He is reaching out to them, I believe even that activates more of His grace released upon them.

I just can't worry. That doesn't mean that I do not share with them and love them when I can. I just choose to keep my eyes on Jesus with them.