How Would You Preach / Teach this passage?

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lighthousejohn

Guest
#1

Exodus 17:1-7
1 The whole Israelite community set out from the Desert of Sin, traveling from place to place as the LORD commanded. They camped at Rephidim, but there was no water for the people to drink. 2 So they quarreled with Moses and said, "Give us water to drink."
Moses replied, "Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you put the LORD to the test?"

3 But the people were thirsty for water there, and they grumbled against Moses. They said, "Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children and livestock die of thirst?"

4 Then Moses cried out to the LORD, "What am I to do with these people? They are almost ready to stone me."
5 The LORD answered Moses, "Walk on ahead of the people. Take with you some of the elders of Israel and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go. 6 I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel. 7 And he called the place Massah and Meribah because the Israelites quarreled and because they tested the LORD saying, "Is the LORD among us or not?"

Numbers 20:1-13
1 In the first month the whole Israelite community arrived at the Desert of Zin, and they stayed at Kadesh. There Miriam died and was buried.


2 Now there was no water for the community, and the people gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron. 3 They quarreled with Moses and said, "If only we had died when our brothers fell dead before the LORD! 4 Why did you bring the LORD's community into this desert, that we and our livestock should die here? 5 Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!"

6 Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the LORD appeared to them. 7 The LORD said to Moses, 8 "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

9 So Moses took the staff from the LORD's presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, "Listen, you rebels, must
we bring you water out of this rock?" 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them."
13 These were the waters of Meribah, where the Israelites quarreled with the LORD and where he showed himself holy among them.

The two passages above tell of the two times that God provided water from a rock.
1 Corinthians 10:4 tell us that the rock was Jesus Christ (ref; 1 Cor. 10:4).

Here is my question. What lesson would you preach or teach from the second passage? I have heard many sermons with many different viewpoints. They all spoke of the quarrelsome nature of the Isrealites but the focal point of the messages varied greatly.

How do you see it?
 
Feb 27, 2007
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#2
When I read this I think of how it applies to our faith today... are we a negative rock in the nonexistant puddle that causes the ripple effect of negativity that effects anothers faith? Would they all have had such negative thoughts if ones faith had not been shaken first. Do we allow what others say to us to ultimately effect Gods work through us & our faith in Him. Just some random thoughts.
 
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lighthousejohn

Guest
#3
When I read this I think of how it applies to our faith today... are we a negative rock in the nonexistant puddle that causes the ripple effect of negativity that effects anothers faith? Would they all have had such negative thoughts if ones faith had not been shaken first. Do we allow what others say to us to ultimately effect Gods work through us & our faith in Him. Just some random thoughts.
Some very interesting randomness. I had to wrap my eyeteeth around your first observation to see what you were saying. Deep, very Deep!
 
Feb 27, 2007
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#4
sorry, I'm DEFINITELY not a pastor :0) This is challenging to me & I have no clue how you guys do it week after week. God Bless you as you figure out your message.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
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#5
The first part said more to me than just the rock being Jesus. It impressed me much like the people acted when Jesus was brought before them in the new testament.
In their sin they struck out against Jesus, it was nessasary so that Jesus would die and rise from death on the cross.
In the same way the people angry and unbeliveing as Moses himself doubting struck the rock( Jesus). But in striking the rock, it gave forth life giving water. Just as Jesus was struck down in death, as it was to be. Thus by his death and reserection his life giving waters were given to us. Yet these waters are for eternal life.
I think it was meant for moses to doubt, it reprasented that all men failed before Jesus. That none of us was free without Jesus.
Ill speak to the second part if I can.
God bless, pickles
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
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#6
I think I would add, that the rod, staff, represented our obedieance to God. Moses showed doubt , disobedience. As I said before it showwed that all man would fail in sin. We all know that moses was in Gods favor. It does call us to consider that if we doubt Gods word given to us that it may cause us to suffer some loss from God's promises. But since the loss was of the world, it can say to us that we can lose those things of the world that are promised, but not losing anything in eternity.

I cannot say if this is a good interptation. Its off the cuff so take this with a grain of salt as they say.
God bless, pickles
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
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#7
I forgot to add, the reprasentation of the people being freed from bondage in the old Testament. And the freedom Jesus gave us from the bondage of sin in the New Testament.
I forgot to put that in my first responce.
God bless, pickles
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#8
I see it in the context of Covenant. No Matter what God is the one who is 'Steadfast' to his covenant people. He provides grace upon grace, even though the people rebel and quarrel, and behave like spoilt children. You see, as Christians we need to be brought out of slavery, just as the Hebrews from Egypt, yet they witness great miracles they still doubt, and still testing the Lord (Matt 4:7).
God's steadfastness to His people is strongly demonstrated again, Moses is commanded to strike the rock and God's provides 'Living water' for His covenant people. The presence of God, intimates that the rock is God, and Living water springs forth, Jesus talks about the living water, as in the 'Samaritan woman at the well' Paul also uses it in Corinthians (1 Cor 10:4) Christ is the rock--- all drank the spiritual drink-- and the rock was Christ.

The main lesson, that I can see is:


  1. God is 'steadfast'. He is trustworthy in all things.
  2. He will provide for what we need.
  3. Christ provides Life
  4. The Spirit is like living waters welling up from inside you to the heavenly places. From the heavenly places in and through you.
  5. It is God who always takes the initiative, men are only continually evil in their hearts (Gen ch 6 & 9). we need the living water.
The Old testament is beautiful, for when we read it and savour it we see Christ from the start, God's plan of redeeming a people for himself, with now the fulfillment of time..Christ the risen Lord!

He is Risen.

Phil
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#9
Disobedience not good. Obedience good. Grumbling against God not good.
 
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lighthousejohn

Guest
#10
I see it in the context of Covenant. No Matter what God is the one who is 'Steadfast' to his covenant people. He provides grace upon grace, even though the people rebel and quarrel, and behave like spoilt children. You see, as Christians we need to be brought out of slavery, just as the Hebrews from Egypt, yet they witness great miracles they still doubt, and still testing the Lord (Matt 4:7).
God's steadfastness to His people is strongly demonstrated again, Moses is commanded to strike the rock and God's provides 'Living water' for His covenant people. The presence of God, intimates that the rock is God, and Living water springs forth, Jesus talks about the living water, as in the 'Samaritan woman at the well' Paul also uses it in Corinthians (1 Cor 10:4) Christ is the rock--- all drank the spiritual drink-- and the rock was Christ.

The main lesson, that I can see is:


  1. God is 'steadfast'. He is trustworthy in all things.
  2. He will provide for what we need.
  3. Christ provides Life
  4. The Spirit is like living waters welling up from inside you to the heavenly places. From the heavenly places in and through you.
  5. It is God who always takes the initiative, men are only continually evil in their hearts (Gen ch 6 & 9). we need the living water.
The Old testament is beautiful, for when we read it and savour it we see Christ from the start, God's plan of redeeming a people for himself, with now the fulfillment of time..Christ the risen Lord!

He is Risen.

Phil
Phil, God bless and Happy Easter!

I believe you referring to the passage from Exodus because in the pasage from Numbers, God told Moses to speak to the rock and Moses struck it out of anger against the people. The result was that he lost his access to the promised land. What is your perspective on this pasage?

In Christ,
John
 

PreTribGuy

Moderator
Staff member
Nov 7, 2009
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#11
In the first passage, God told Moses to strike the rock. He did.

In the second passage, God said SPEAK to the rock. Moses did NOT do that. He STRUCK the rock....TWICE.
Furthermore, he insulted the Hebrew children by calling them 'rebels'.
He also said the 'must WE bring water out of the rock?' (GOD was giving the water...not Moses)

It was because of this second passage that Moses was NOT let into the promised land.

This illustrates that we are not to insult the sheep and that we are to listen VERY carefully to what God tells us to do and not to add to it.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#12
Phil, God bless and Happy Easter!

I believe you referring to the passage from Exodus because in the pasage from Numbers, God told Moses to speak to the rock and Moses struck it out of anger against the people. The result was that he lost his access to the promised land. What is your perspective on this pasage?

In Christ,
John

Hi John, Happy Easter and God bless aswell,

Totally went passed that part, just going to church, will answer when I get back..

Phil
 
I

Israel

Guest
#13
I'm not a preacher, but God willing, I'll give you my interpretation of it. The first thing that sticks out to me is in the first story in Exodus. 5 The LORD answered Moses, "Walk on ahead of the people. Take with you some of the elders of Israel and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go."

Well, what happened at the Nile?

Exodus 7:15-32

Get thee unto Pharaoh in the morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou shalt stand by the river's brink against he come; and the rod which was turned to a serpent shalt thou take in thine hand.

16And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.
17Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
18And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.
19And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.
20And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.
21And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. 22And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.


I see a few things here. God tells Moses to use AARON'S rod that turned in to a serpent to strike the river of the Nile! The Nile was their source of life! Every source of water was turned to blood, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone! It was also done in the sight of Pharoah, and in the sight of his servents. We then see that the magicians of Egypt did so as well!

Now we get to the wilderness and no water to drink. God tells Moses to walk ahead of the people with some of the elders from Israel now, as Pharaoh was with his servants. He was then told to strike the rock and water will flow out for all to drink! First, the SAME ROD that turned into a SERPENT struck the rock! We also notice that as before, when Moses struck the Nile, he was told to say that he was SENT by God. At the rock, however, the LORD said that HE would stand before him by the rock HIMSELF! How did the people test God? By saying " is the LORD among us or not?"

We know that Spiritually, this is Christ!

Exodus 7:1

And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

We know that we need physical water to sustain life. But spiritually water represents the true word of God. When the rod of Aaron struck the nile, spiritually this is showing us that we cannot be justified by the works of the law. The law of nature states that we need water to survive! The true law of God says man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God!

Romans 7:9-11

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Aaron represented a prophet of Moses who represented the LORD. The rod which turned into a serpent struck the water (truth of the law) and turned it into BLOOD! Now the last place naturally speaking to look for water is a rock! Nature's law says a rock can't produce water. But remember Moses was told to go ahead of the people. Only the elders witnessed Moses hitting the rock. These were the only ones that had faith that the Lord was indeed among them!

Now to the second story. What jumps out is that now Moses and Aaron is to gather the WHOLE ASSEMBLY in the presence of the rock. He is to take the same staff that turned into a serpent and SPEAK to the rock in the company of everyone! But do you also see that the staff is NO LONGER IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD! Also pay attention to the tone in which Moses uses this time. Before he was afraid of being stoned by the people. Now he boldly calls them REBELS and states: "must we bring you water out of this rock?" The Lord then tells moses that he will not bring the people into the promised land because he did not trust in Him enough to make Him holy before Israel.

Again, the rock represents Christ! And as before only the elders were present, now all of Israel is together. And althogh the rod is NOT in the presence of the Lord, Moses was commanded still to take it. Calling them rebels, he then strikes the rock twice! I notice first that naturally, he does the same as the first time. The difference is that in seeing it the first time, he is now confident it will work this time! Moses knows that a rock naturally can't sprout water. He knew that it was the Lord who was with him. But this time he did not give the glory to God. Being in front of now the whole congregation, moses tried to justify himself by striking the rock as before. The waters came out more abundantly as also the Lord was still sanctified in the people of Israel. But striking the rock this time had nothing to do with it! He was told simply to speak with the rod at his side! Remember the rock was struck by the rod once already to produce water! He called the people rebels and then proceeds to rebel himself against God!

John 10:10

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Galatians 2:14-21

14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Spiritually, water represents the truth of the word of God. The waters of Egypt were turned to blood including the vessels of wood and stone. What are God's vessels of water?

Acts 9:15

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Romans 9:21-23

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Daniel 5:17-23

Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.

18O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
19And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down.
20But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
21And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.
22And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this; 23But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:

These vessels aren't cups and plates. Spiritually these are people just like Paul. These are the saints!

Revelation 17:3-6

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

1 Peter 2:1-5

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

I hope that helps a little. God bless
 
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giantone

Guest
#14
I think The sermon that would be written would be titled " They should have trusted God" Just think God could have had wheat and honey come out of the rock if they would have just trusted Him.

Psalms 81:15 *The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.
16 *He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.


 
M

Mulehide

Guest
#15
In the first passage, Moses struck the rock in faith and obedience and water poured forth. When we accept through faith and in obedience to God's plan that Jesus (rock) was crucified (struck) for our sins, we then receive the Living Water springing up within us. In the second passage, Moses struck the rock in anger. He did not need to bring out water but rather tap into the water that was already there. After we believe, often we either experience a time of testing or we fall away from the Lord. We then come to Him in anger or bitterness to coerce Him to do what we want. Sometimes He does give our request but as Moses we lose out on all we could have had. Psalm 106:15. Whereas we simply must come to God in humble obedience and faith and He readily hears us and we can tap back into the Living Water already within us. Psalm 51:6 Jer 33:3 Heb 4:16
 
Aug 16, 2009
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#16
When I read this I think of how it applies to our faith today... are we a negative rock in the nonexistant puddle that causes the ripple effect of negativity that effects anothers faith? Would they all have had such negative thoughts if ones faith had not been shaken first. Do we allow what others say to us to ultimately effect Gods work through us & our faith in Him. Just some random thoughts.
Hi imoss,
I really can't understand how God's work through us can ultimately be affected by what others say to us. Can you enlighten me on this matter? Thanks.
KayCee
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#17
Hi John,

Here's what I get from the passage in Numbers:

Moses disregarded God's command.. he struck the rock instead of Talking to it.. Moses should have known God's presence and he was told to speak, but he struck.

Here is the problem:


  • Was his punishment due because he was angry (v10) and we can see God took exception to this (v12)
or


  • Was their punishment due to carelessness in following God's command, as mediators to the people?
V12 would suggest the second point, also because of the earlier incident, Moses should have known God's presence involving the rock, therefore Moses' speaking to the rock would have been him speaking to God.

Moses struck the rock twice in anger, no wonder God punished severely. Moses usually obeyed God but not here. It was Aaron's sons careless disobedience that killed them.

The peoples unbelief led them not to enter the land, as was with Moses and Aaron.

A couple of lessons here, although we have one mediator now and that is Christ, we have preachers and Teachers, this should serve as a stark warning that they are truly teaching God's word. Unfortunatley, a good lot don't. But, they will pay an ultimate price for that.

Secondly, unbelief keeps you from Christ. All peoples of all ages are unbelievers until the Holy Spirit softens your heart. as Jesus says, those in darkness are condemned already.

As for a sermon, well you could probably have a couple of Sundays there no problem. Usually a good grasp of the whole Exodus story helps in expounding on these storys, which I am not skilled at.

I take my hat off to all those Pastors who have been called by God, spent a few years training in Scripture, so that by the power of God they can feed the sheep of Jesus.

Sorry its very brief, but Time dictates and no one reads huge posts lol

Phil
 
Feb 27, 2007
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#18
Hi imoss,
I really can't understand how God's work through us can ultimately be affected by what others say to us. Can you enlighten me on this matter? Thanks.
KayCee
Well, moses was most certainly effected by it... the grumbling and the negativity caused him to react in a way that was contrary to Gods instruction because he allowed them to get to him. Think about when someone is unhappy with the preacher, the busy body who thinks he/she knows how things should be... and they tell two friends and suddenly the two friends are thinking, maybe she's right and then not seeing the situation for how it really is but for how that one person has interpreted it. Thus allowing their thoughts and actions to be dictated by one negative soul... This is common and i'm surprised you wouldnt be able to see how this could be. I've learned to try not to be drawn into foolish controversy as it will effect Gods work in me.
 
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lighthousejohn

Guest
#19
Hi imoss,
I really can't understand how God's work through us can ultimately be affected by what others say to us. Can you enlighten me on this matter? Thanks.
KayCee
KayCee,

I just thought I would add my two cents worth to what IMoss has said. Our words can have a great impact on those around us. We listen to pastors because they have been "trained" in the word. If the pastor is in error, we can also end up in error if we blindly or "deafly" listen to false teachings.

Many churches have elders that have not neccessarily been trained in the word but they have great influence in their fellowships. Unfortunately many of them speak from tradition and not from solid biblical teachings.

We need to be aware of the words of those in biblical authority over us. We are told to test everything against scripture to insure true doctrine and scriptural truth is being taught.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
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#20
Moses trusted in the word which was before, and remembered what the Lord had said, and in his anger with the people, and in his exasperation, he did what was commanded from years before, and not what the Lord commanded right then. Moses was guilty of doing what God had said in a different circumstance, and not what God was saying for this circumstance.

Moses had such a relationship with the Lord that the Lord spoke to Moses mouth to mouth. What Moses should have trusted in was the voice of the Lord, and that he should have obeyed.

What I say here will not be viewed favorably by most. But the clear evidence of the word is that when Moses first came to this problem, he obeyed the spoken word. When he came to the same trouble again, years later, he did not obey the spoken word, but rather what the word had said years ago.

We have the Spirit of God dwelling in us, and yet we do not want to hear Him. If we would just open our hearts to Him, we would know, and those who are not lead by the Spirit would have no influence with us.

In His grace,
vic