If all the world is a stage and we are all actors, are we tested on our "part"? The subject of Forgiveness.

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Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
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#1
I would like to know what you all think of the subject of Forgiveness. It has been said that you should forgive your brother and even forgive your enemy, also to pray for them and even love them. I agree with all that and understand the "they do not know what they do" scripture.

But how is it that they are not forgiven at the Judgement? Surely if we are to forgive everybody, cannot God forgive everybody no matter how they have acted? Especially if like a child, they do know what they do? It sort of seem contradictory? Is the purpose for forgiveness a test in us?

It seems that some of the people concerned do not even know the sin that they are even guilty of? Didn't Joseph want to see a "change of heart" with Benjamin's Cup before he forgave them? It seems no matter how hard one is ready to forgive, does forgiveness have to be accepted to be valid or is it a test in us to see if we can forgive, notwithstanding the other person being involved in it (as some people will not accept forgiveness if they do not know the sin they are guilty of in the first place?)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
19,189
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#2
Judgment will be handed over to the saints in God's time. Until that time we are to be just as Jesus, Yeshua. If we wish to receive His mercy, we must extend it to all, even out enemies as long as we are yet in this age.
We do indeed judge "for ourselves" what is right, but we are never to judge to condemnation of any for in this age only One has that (had that) authority, and He shose mercy.
Also keep in mind as long as a being in the flesh has breath there is still time to repent, and I believe this is the bottom line from Heaven for us to always consider.
So we extend mercy to all, even our enemies. This does not mean you need to be around them if God providees you way of not being around them. You know… al love in Jesus, Yeshua...….…j
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,653
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#4
Is the judgement of God based on forgiving an unrepentant sinner, or is it based on the new nature able to dwell in the presence of Father through Jesus?
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
277
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#6
Yes that is exactly my question.

I tend to think that we are best to forgive as we do not know all things or the state at anyone's heart on a day to day basis, or even their circumstances. How do we not know that people do secretly repent even if they do not do it openly?

We all regret stuff. I reckon its a changed heart God wants and it doesn't necessarily mean people have to parade on the streets saying they are sorry. They might do it privately to God which is why he is the Judge (who knows all things).

I always say to people who say it is weak to forgive, that actually no. Its harder to forgive someone than not forgive them. So the person who can forgive is stronger than the one who doesn't forgive as anyone can do that. Forgiving is really hard, even more so if the person in question seems unrepentant. But how do we know how people really feel? They might feel really bad about things they have done and are just too proud to admit it. We have all done that after all.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,670
3,054
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#7
I would like to know what you all think of the subject of Forgiveness. It has been said that you should forgive your brother and even forgive your enemy, also to pray for them and even love them. I agree with all that and understand the "they do not know what they do" scripture.
Yes we should believe Jesus in regards to loving our neighbour.. And our neighbours are the rest of mankind..

But how is it that they are not forgiven at the Judgement?
The process of forgiveness takes two parties to achieve.. One the offender and the other the offended.. In this case God is the one sinned against and we are the sinners.. For a sinner to open up the door to forgiveness they MUST acknowledge their sins to God and Ask him for His forgiveness.. Now if a person does not recognize their offensive deeds as offensive then they will not seek the forgiveness of God will they.... This is why many people will not be forgiven.. The gift of forgiveness is being offered by God and all one needs to do is accept the gift by believing Gods will ( standards ) acknowledging one has transgressed against his will ( standards ) and trust in the Atonement jesus secured on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins...


Surely if we are to forgive everybody, cannot God forgive everybody no matter how they have acted?
Sure God is ready willing and able to forgive people in a flash.. But are people willing to believe God , Repent and trust in what Jesus did to save them?

Especially if like a child, they do know what they do? It sort of seem contradictory?
If a child is still innocent they do not yet have the knowledge of good and evil and thus they do not need forgivness.. As for your quote they do know what they do This is what Jesus said in regard to the people that where executing Him.. have you read the Passage in the Bible where the Apostle Peter preached to the crowd on the day of penticost when the apostles had just received the Holy Spirit? Do you know in the crowd where people who had taken part in the execution of Jesus and that on that day 3000 of them believed Peter and where saved??

Peter preached to them and finally said::
Acts 2: KJV
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

And their reaction was::

Acts 2: KJV
37- "¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

3000 saved:

Acts 2 KJV
41 ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


It seems that some of the people concerned do not even know the sin that they are even guilty of?
When they come to hear the Word of God they are then required to make their own personal response to His will..

Didn't Joseph want to see a "change of heart" with Benjamin's Cup before he forgave them? It seems no matter how hard one is ready to forgive, does forgiveness have to be accepted to be valid or is it a test in us to see if we can forgive, notwithstanding the other person being involved in it (as some people will not accept forgiveness if they do not know the sin they are guilty of in the first place?)
The Bible gives a procedure when we are offended by another.. Part of that procedure calls upon us to go to the person in private and tell them what they have done to us.. Christians are also called to go out and share the Word of God which has in it knowledge of sins which will also stir a reaction out of people.. Often people get offended when they are told their favorite actions are transgressions.. They are automatically rejecting the Word of God and thus they reject Gods will..

Jesus said::

John 3: KJV
18 "¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
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#8
That's a brilliant answer and thank you so much. What about the mentally ill (are they regarded as "children" who are innocent?) After all there are loads of people with their minds messed up with drugs (prescription drugs even) and cannot see reason what ever you say to them or even remember anything you say the next minute, like people with Dementia)

I often wonder about these people and its hard to believe they are judged for what they "do not know". I think you are right though, God is a just judge and he knows what we do not. This question that has been raised also makes me wonder about Saul and why he was so tormented as maybe that would be called "mentally ill" these days. After all, he started off "head and shoulders" above the rest. Do you think there are levels of Heaven that Paul spoke of? It just seems strange that those who are unable to hear the Word because of Pride and die in their sins are rounded up with the worst of the Human Race. Just saying...

Thanks for your answer though. Very insightful.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,670
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#9
Heyjude.. just some advice.. it is best to quote the post you are replying to that way the person will automatically get a notice that someone has replied to them and they will respond.. otherwise you are just hoping that the person will happen to go back to that thread and read the following posts.. I often give my response to the opening Post and then only go back to that thread if someone replies.. Down at the right bottom of each post is a blue ""REPLY"" all you need do is click on that to quote that persons post in your reply..

That's a brilliant answer and thank you so much. What about the mentally ill (are they regarded as "children" who are innocent?) After all there are loads of people with their minds messed up with drugs (prescription drugs even) and cannot see reason what ever you say to them or even remember anything you say the next minute, like people with Dementia) I often wonder about these people and its hard to believe they are judged for what they "do not know".
I trust in Gods assessment of each individual case.. I have no doubt that many people with mental illness are like little ones not know good and evil and thus they are innocent in the eyes of God.. But of course some other mental conditions are not as the above..

This question that has been raised also makes me wonder about Saul and why he was so tormented as maybe that would be called "mentally ill" these days. After all, he started off "head and shoulders" above the rest.
Well Paul started out way lower then the rest.. He was a persecuter of Christians and caused some to be put to death.. Paul who was formerly Saul was a fanatical enemy of the Way of Jesus at the start.. Jesus showed Him great Mercy on the road to Damascus by kicking him off his horse and letting Him know that He was LORD whom he was persecuting.. Saul was not mentally ill.. He was just misguided..

Paul said::

1 Corinthians 15: KJV

9 "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."


Do you think there are levels of Heaven that Paul spoke of?
Yes.. Though the Bible does not detail the differences between the levels as far as i know..

It just seems strange that those who are unable to hear the Word because of Pride and die in their sins are rounded up with the worst of the Human Race. Just saying...
Well pride leads to destruction.. Pride is the worst thing a human can be in relation to God..

Proverbs 16: KJV
18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

Way better to be humble and have contrition for ones sins before the LORD..

Isaiah 57: KJV
15 "For thus saith the High and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

And::

Isaiah 66: KJV
2 "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#10
Heyjude.. just some advice.. it is best to quote the post you are replying to that way the person will automatically get a notice that someone has replied to them and they will respond.. otherwise you are just hoping that the person will happen to go back to that thread and read the following posts.. I often give my response to the opening Post and then only go back to that thread if someone replies.. Down at the right bottom of each post is a blue ""REPLY"" all you need do is click on that to quote that persons post in your reply..



I trust in Gods assessment of each individual case.. I have no doubt that many people with mental illness are like little ones not know good and evil and thus they are innocent in the eyes of God.. But of course some other mental conditions are not as the above..



Well Paul started out way lower then the rest.. He was a persecuter of Christians and caused some to be put to death.. Paul who was formerly Saul was a fanatical enemy of the Way of Jesus at the start.. Jesus showed Him great Mercy on the road to Damascus by kicking him off his horse and letting Him know that He was LORD whom he was persecuting.. Saul was not mentally ill.. He was just misguided..

Paul said::

1 Corinthians 15: KJV
9 "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."




Yes.. Though the Bible does not detail the differences between the levels as far as i know..



Well pride leads to destruction.. Pride is the worst thing a human can be in relation to God..

Proverbs 16: KJV
18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

Way better to be humble and have contrition for ones sins before the LORD..

Isaiah 57: KJV
15 "For thus saith the High and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

And::

Isaiah 66: KJV
2 "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#11
Thank you for the reply and also for showing me how to post threads correctly......I have not done this before so thanks!

I was actually referring to King Saul not Saul Paul. The first started off "head and shoulders" above the others and got worse and the other (Saul/Paul) started off worse and got better. I think Saul/Paul wasn't mentally ill, just angry and hated God for whatever reason before he saw the light. But King Saul...that was a strange case as sometimes he loved David and sometimes he hated him. Just sounds like mental illness but who knows? I think what I really meant by "pride" wasn't the haughty hateful "pride" but the "not admitting you are wrong" sort of Pride.

Its just hard to lump together those folk with murderers and those with real hate of God. Some people are just not brave or courageous enough to admit they are wrong are they? Especially some generations. First class answers by the way.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,670
3,054
113
#12
Thank you for the reply and also for showing me how to post threads correctly......I have not done this before so thanks!

I was actually referring to King Saul not Saul Paul. The first started off "head and shoulders" above the others and got worse and the other (Saul/Paul) started off worse and got better. I think Saul/Paul wasn't mentally ill, just angry and hated God for whatever reason before he saw the light. But King Saul...that was a strange case as sometimes he loved David and sometimes he hated him. Just sounds like mental illness but who knows? I think what I really meant by "pride" wasn't the haughty hateful "pride" but the "not admitting you are wrong" sort of Pride.

Its just hard to lump together those folk with murderers and those with real hate of God. Some people are just not brave or courageous enough to admit they are wrong are they? Especially some generations. First class answers by the way.
Oh ok King Saul,, gotcha :)

King Saul acted a bit like a schizophrenic towards David. He seemed to think David was going to rebel against Him and take His crown.. Then David would show His loyalty and Saul would relax for a while then the old fears would creep into his head again and he would be out trying to have David killed again.. King Saul could have had a case of Schizophrenia ?? God knows..

Admitting your wrong is a little bit different to believing your wrong.. God knows our thoughts and while some people find it very dificult to admit they are wrong to other people it should not be very hard to aknowledge one is wrong towards God.. God is not going to mock or denegrate me when i aknowledge my faults to Him.. I know it pleases Him greatly when people do this.. God is perfect in dealing with us.. :)

Oh and when you his reply and quote someone you can automatically start typing your reply and the reply will be in the same quoted post.. But no worries one step at a time getting used to forums. (y)

And it has been an Honor and a Joy sharing thoughts on God with you..:) Thank you so much for your encouragement..
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#13
Oh ok King Saul,, gotcha :)

King Saul acted a bit like a schizophrenic towards David. He seemed to think David was going to rebel against Him and take His crown.. Then David would show His loyalty and Saul would relax for a while then the old fears would creep into his head again and he would be out trying to have David killed again.. King Saul could have had a case of Schizophrenia ?? God knows..

Admitting your wrong is a little bit different to believing your wrong.. God knows our thoughts and while some people find it very dificult to admit they are wrong to other people it should not be very hard to aknowledge one is wrong towards God.. God is not going to mock or denegrate me when i aknowledge my faults to Him.. I know it pleases Him greatly when people do this.. God is perfect in dealing with us.. :)

Oh and when you his reply and quote someone you can automatically start typing your reply and the reply will be in the same quoted post.. But no worries one step at a time getting used to forums. (y)

And it has been an Honor and a Joy sharing thoughts on God with you..:) Thank you so much for your encouragement..
Thank you so much for saying that and yes, I agree the whole story of King Saul was rather sad and very much like someone in "two minds" so to speak. Lets hope we have a harp to hand when we meet anyone like that. And yes, sorry I will try and get the hang of the forum buttons and reply correctly. I am a bit of a techno moron to be honest (sorry bout that....). I hope I did it correctly this time.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,670
3,054
113
#14
Thank you so much for saying that and yes, I agree the whole story of King Saul was rather sad and very much like someone in "two minds" so to speak. Lets hope we have a harp to hand when we meet anyone like that. And yes, sorry I will try and get the hang of the forum buttons and reply correctly. I am a bit of a techno moron to be honest (sorry bout that....). I hope I did it correctly this time.
No worries you're getting the hang of this place quick enough (y) Take care i am heading out for the night ( I'm in Australia) maybe i will hear from you tomorrow stay cool until then. :cool: