If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

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seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,372
2,752
113
#1
Hello,

I've seen the debate over whether or not women can be pastors/lead in the church many times, and have gone through many Bible studies in which this is discussed and examined. I also grew up in a church that did NOT believe women could hold positions of authority, unless it was as a deaconess to younger women in the church.

This is NOT meant to be a debate over whether women can be pastors at all.

Rather, I once read a post that addressed something that really sparked my interest, seeing as I grew up in Christian schools.

* If women are not allowed to speak or be leaders/teachers in the church, why are women relied on to teach Sunday School, vacation Bible school, and in Christian schools and colleges (such as what I grew up in)?

* Why do many of these tasks (geared toward children and young adults) seem to automatically be deligated as "women's work"? And yet, I would guess most parents in the churches I grew up in would not bring their kids to Sunday School if the entire Sunday School staff was all men.

I am certainly NOT saying ANYTHING against men who work in ministries that serve children--I'm just saying that when I've asked some parents how they would feel about dropping their kids off with an all-male Sunday School/children/teen church staff, they're don't seem to be entirely comfortable with the idea. But maybe this is only in the churches I've been in?

I have to wonder why it's so often thought that it's perfectly fine (even expected, and a spiritual duty) for women to teach and lead children, and young adults, but not full-grown adults? (I don't meant this as a debate or a criticism, but as an honest question.)

* Does that mean that once her students turn 18 (or 21, or whatever age is defined as being an "adult"), any spiritual leadership and authority she had over them the day before their "adulthood" birthday is now null and void, and does a male studen now automatically have spiritual authority over her, even if she's twice his age?

* If so, why are women allowed to teach at Christian colleges?

* And if a woman loses any spiritual authority over a man when he comes of age, what is being taught in churches to reinforce this? Are young men told that they now have spiritual leadership and authority over the women in the church once they turn that age?

* Will the men of the church tell their wives that they must follow and submit to the spiritual lead of any 18-year-old (or whatever the age of adulthood is seen as) on the ministry staff?

* Why is this topic never addressed whenever it's said that women can't hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church?

I would really like to see this discussed, as it always seemed to be glossed over.

Is a woman allowed to teach your male child/relative, but does he then have spiritual authority over her in the church once he becomes an adult?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,649
5,628
113
#2
Is a woman allowed to teach your male child/relative...
There's your answer. Teaching children and teaching men within a local church are two totally different things. Ideally (and according to Scripture) men should also be teaching older children and young adults in Sunday school classes.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,372
2,752
113
#3
There's your answer. Teaching children and teaching men within a local church are two totally different things. Ideally (and according to Scripture) men should also be teaching older children and young adults in Sunday school classes.
It's an interesting topic to me because I just had a glance at the Lutheran College that students in my high school were sent to if they wanted to be pastors or teachers and at least 1/3+ of the members of the staff are women.

I'm not trying to lay out a Biblical argument for this, I'm just bewildered by the fact that the church I grew up in allows only male leadership in the church, but apparently makes an exception when it comes to education, and this seemingly inconsistent policy has me curious.

Could you lead me to any passages that forbids women from teaching any young man that has just become a legal adult? I would be curious to read them myself.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#4
Paul did not leave this issue hanging, he always referenced the creation story as the basis for men being a higher authority than women. He basically says that a man came from God and a woman came from a man, so a man is the reflection of God and a woman the reflection of a man and that hierarchy is to be maintained.

And Paul doesn't stop there, he says that a man is not independent of a woman because a man also comes from a woman and the man that comes from a woman in this case is called a child. So women have authority over man child and are expected always to have that authority- so it is not bad for a woman to teach children and young adults. Young adults is a range of ages of people who are still under their parents care. But IMO, a married man even if at 21, will not fall in this bracket of young adults because now they have a responsibility which comes with the authority.

Paul says, these are not just some random rules but salvation also comes when we submit to the authorities that God set in His wisdom- Just like Eve's sin was put on the account of Adam, the church's (Bride's) sin is put on the account of Jesus (Bridegroom) because of that submission and being obedient.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
15,152
8,230
113
#5
As with many other issues, churches are inconsistent on their application of "rules" around who teaches whom. Scripture also says for older women to teach the younger women, but you don't see the younger women being ushered out of the assembly when men stand up to teach.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
32,226
10,333
113
#6
Men in general do not have spiritual authority over women in general. Husbands are to be in authority over their wives. Period. (Though husbands and wives are to submit to each other.) This question/idea of male dominance over females, in spiritual matters, came up in your other thread from today also. Please perish the thought :D

Look at this... :)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,761
4,243
113
#7
We now are privileged to have One Head while we are all different parts of His Body, and that should say it all, however learn all of what Paul says about one member of the Body lording it over another. Women, are you above men? Men are you above women? I speak in terms of the teaching about the Body of the Which we are al members, not one above the other. If youbelieve this understanding, why do you pursue it further
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
32,226
10,333
113
#8
Oh, and I almost forgot to mention (haha) that at each day/step of creation, God pronounced His work good, until the sixth day, after Eve was made, and then creation was pronounced to be very good :D
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
32,226
10,333
113
#9
Re: Hebrew ezer kenegdo. In Genesis 2:18, the word "helpmeet" does not occur. The Hebrew expression ezer kenegdo appears, meaning "one who is the same as the other and who surrounds, protects, aids, helps, supports." There is no indication of inferiority or of a secondary position in an hierarchical separation of the male and female "spheres" of responsibility, authority, or social position.

The word ezer is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and 14 times to refer to God. For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper," he uses the word ezer.

Click

and click again.

:)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,761
4,243
113
#10
Re: Hebrew ezer kenegdo. In Genesis 2:18, the word "helpmeet" does not occur. The Hebrew expression ezer kenegdo appears, meaning "one who is the same as the other and who surrounds, protects, aids, helps, supports." There is no indication of inferiority or of a secondary position in an hierarchical separation of the male and female "spheres" of responsibility, authority, or social position.

The word ezer is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and 14 times to refer to God. For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper," he uses the word ezer.

Click

and click again.

:)

EXCELLENT
! Calls for red leters……………….could only find the bold......you get the idea. What a wonderful post
 

Adelia

Junior Member
Apr 18, 2018
51
54
18
#11
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
113
#12
Hello,

I've seen the debate over whether or not women can be pastors/lead in the church many times, and have gone through many Bible studies in which this is discussed and examined. I also grew up in a church that did NOT believe women could hold positions of authority, unless it was as a deaconess to younger women in the church.

This is NOT meant to be a debate over whether women can be pastors at all.

Rather, I once read a post that addressed something that really sparked my interest, seeing as I grew up in Christian schools.

* If women are not allowed to speak or be leaders/teachers in the church, why are women relied on to teach Sunday School, vacation Bible school, and in Christian schools and colleges (such as what I grew up in)?

* Why do many of these tasks (geared toward children and young adults) seem to automatically be deligated as "women's work"? And yet, I would guess most parents in the churches I grew up in would not bring their kids to Sunday School if the entire Sunday School staff was all men.

I am certainly NOT saying ANYTHING against men who work in ministries that serve children--I'm just saying that when I've asked some parents how they would feel about dropping their kids off with an all-male Sunday School/children/teen church staff, they're don't seem to be entirely comfortable with the idea. But maybe this is only in the churches I've been in?

I have to wonder why it's so often thought that it's perfectly fine (even expected, and a spiritual duty) for women to teach and lead children, and young adults, but not full-grown adults? (I don't meant this as a debate or a criticism, but as an honest question.)

* Does that mean that once her students turn 18 (or 21, or whatever age is defined as being an "adult"), any spiritual leadership and authority she had over them the day before their "adulthood" birthday is now null and void, and does a male studen now automatically have spiritual authority over her, even if she's twice his age?

* If so, why are women allowed to teach at Christian colleges?

* And if a woman loses any spiritual authority over a man when he comes of age, what is being taught in churches to reinforce this? Are young men told that they now have spiritual leadership and authority over the women in the church once they turn that age?

* Will the men of the church tell their wives that they must follow and submit to the spiritual lead of any 18-year-old (or whatever the age of adulthood is seen as) on the ministry staff?

* Why is this topic never addressed whenever it's said that women can't hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church?

I would really like to see this discussed, as it always seemed to be glossed over.

Is a woman allowed to teach your male child/relative, but does he then have spiritual authority over her in the church once he becomes an adult?
Its not positions of authority as if it was after the flesh .One is our teaching authority in heaven .We are to call no man or woman teacher on earth just as in the same way we are to call no man Father on earth .

The reformation has come . The time period is restored back to the time of Judges before there kings in Israel. God gave them over temporalt ly to do that which they should not off .They demanded a king because of their jealousy of the surrounding Pagan nations that must walk by sight.(no faith) a time when God used both men and woman to bring the gospel as the teaching of Christ, as promised in Joel .

Pastors must be married (once) and able to keep their children in order. Its not a manly position but a family affair. The qualification is not just show up as a man .

Both men and woman must be silent in church and work out their relationship problem at home(a new problem that developed after the time of reformation.(men and woman together in a assembly atmosphere ) .or other wise bring the to the pastoral family having both the council of women as well as men .as two gathering together un der hearing of the gospel .showing he is present.

Never one.How can one walk in a agreement as if it was two?
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,372
2,752
113
#13
Thank you all for the replies.

I'm currently in the process of working my way through all passages and links (thank you, Magenta :)) that have been posted.

I greatly appreciate people taking the time to answer and/or cite references, and I hope more will continue to do so.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
32,789
10,716
113
65
Florida
#14
Could you lead me to any passages that forbids women from teaching any young man that has just become a legal adult? I would be curious to read them myself.
It is interesting to note that it was Paul who said that he does not permit women to speak in church but nowhere does it say that God does not permit it. I believe that Paul was merely stating his personal preference based on the culture and traditions of that era. What is it scripturally, that makes a man eminently more qualified to hold positions of leadership in a church setting than a woman? A lot of Paul's writing is obviously his own personal opinion but perhaps not binding in a spiritual sense in all instances and situations.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
5,251
745
113
#15
I don't think it's an issue of quality. Moses was set apart to do one thing,Aaron another and Moses argued that Aaron spoke better than him. God settled this and Moses did one thing and Aaron another. Every one Paul,Abraham,Peter,Noah,Elisha,Sarah,Mary ect.ect. were given a certain role. What's wrong with being a woman and performing the role God ask? I find it difficult to be a man but I think God knew best and that I would not do the things a woman does by nature very well.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
113
#16
It is interesting to note that it was Paul who said that he does not permit women to speak in church but nowhere does it say that God does not permit it. I believe that Paul was merely stating his personal preference based on the culture and traditions of that era. What is it scripturally, that makes a man eminently more qualified to hold positions of leadership in a church setting than a woman? A lot of Paul's writing is obviously his own personal opinion but perhaps not binding in a spiritual sense in all instances and situations.
Yes woman are to be silent in their private affairs and ask there own husbands at home but women like men are sent out two by two with the gospel .The reformation has come the government is restored to the time period of Judges. Watch out for those Deborah's they can sting like a Bee when God sends them out.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
15,152
8,230
113
#17
I don't think it's an issue of quality. Moses was set apart to do one thing,Aaron another and Moses argued that Aaron spoke better than him. God settled this and Moses did one thing and Aaron another. Every one Paul,Abraham,Peter,Noah,Elisha,Sarah,Mary ect.ect. were given a certain role. What's wrong with being a woman and performing the role God ask? I find it difficult to be a man but I think God knew best and that I would not do the things a woman does by nature very well.
As you have written this, there is indeed nothing wrong with both women and men performing the roles that God gives them. The problem is when men try to dictate the roles that women may perform and restrict them thereby.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,683
3,193
113
#18
It is interesting to note that it was Paul who said that he does not permit women to speak in church but nowhere does it say that God does not permit it. I believe that Paul was merely stating his personal preference based on the culture and traditions of that era. What is it scripturally, that makes a man eminently more qualified to hold positions of leadership in a church setting than a woman? A lot of Paul's writing is obviously his own personal opinion but perhaps not binding in a spiritual sense in all instances and situations.
You gone done it again bro! Better run before they get the fuse replaced and get the lights turned back on ! :)
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
5,251
745
113
#19
As you have written this, there is indeed nothing wrong with both women and men performing the roles that God gives them. The problem is when men try to dictate the roles that women may perform and restrict them thereby.

I think that's correct in that mankind several years back set fort laws that curbed many peoples thinking as to equality in the work places and changed the roles of men and women.

It did not take long for junk food type foods to become popular that could be just tossed into the oven(to tired to cook after work),then the microwave to make it even quicker. Divorce rates began to increase and children grew up in single family environments and now we have an genneration of young adults where most men cannot repair a lawnmower or check their tires and women who cannot follow a recipe to cook. So you are correct I think all the evidence supports the danger of man(kind) dictating roles on the family structure.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
113
#20
I think that's correct in that mankind several years back set fort laws that curbed many peoples thinking as to equality in the work places and changed the roles of men and women.

It did not take long for junk food type foods to become popular that could be just tossed into the oven(to tired to cook after work),then the microwave to make it even quicker. Divorce rates began to increase and children grew up in single family environments and now we have an genneration of young adults where most men cannot repair a lawnmower or check their tires and women who cannot follow a recipe to cook. So you are correct I think all the evidence supports the danger of man(kind) dictating roles on the family structure.
Before the reformation woman were not allowed into the work place in respect to the ceremonial laws a ten foot high wall stood between them and another level for the gentiles After the reformation they all together became equal members .