If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

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seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
13,323
3,516
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#61
But the OPs point is, I think, these things are hypocritical. What's the difference between a college, that equips men to preach and church, none. Makes no sense whatsoever.
Thank you, Kayla.

I was hoping that readers would come to this conclusion for themselves, but perhaps I haven't been as concise as I needed to be.

The point of this thread is that I have seen situations in which men have all the authority in the church and keep saying, "Women can't speak, women can't have authority, women need to ask their husbands," but yet have women as a normal part of their staff to teach ADULT men a portion of their training to become future pastors and leaders (over women)... is, at best, ironic.

And, if it's true that women are not to have authority over men in the church, why do these inconsistencies exist, especially in major church denominations?

I certainly don't have the answers. That's why I rely on the forum members here. :)
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,151
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Philippines Age 40
#62
But the OPs point is, I think, these things are hypocritical. What's the difference between a college, that equips men to preach and church, none. Makes no sense whatsoever.
The difference maybe is in the environment? Actual church is different than the training ground. Sometimes teachers are just good at training students. Just like coaches, they don't actually play.
 

Jakyzee

New member
Apr 27, 2019
1
0
1
#63
Re: Hebrew ezer kenegdo. In Genesis 2:18, the word "helpmeet" does not occur. The Hebrew expression ezer kenegdo appears, meaning "one who is the same as the other and who surrounds, protects, aids, helps, supports." There is no indication of inferiority or of a secondary position in an hierarchical separation of the male and female "spheres" of responsibility, authority, or social position.

The word ezer is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and 14 times to refer to God. For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper," he uses the word ezer.

Click

and click again.

:)
I would like to respond and help some people's point of views: In order to set the basic question "Are men in authority over women?" in a right place, we have to understand who is asked this question? First we have to study again to understand the creation and its components right the way the holy bible states. All creatures and everything in this world was made the way Genesis one describes, that's why when you enter second chapter, it start by confirming that the 'creation' was made in chapter one. In chapter 1 verse 27 it clearly says that God 'created' male & female at same time just like fish, animals birds, insects and trees in same style 'after his kinds' by His WORD just like the rest of creations, which means there were created all creed as ''after his kind''. In chapter two, God formed a man, this man was alone, and was made handmaiden and Lord God gave him His 'breath of life' totally different to chapter one those who were couples, fishes were couples, birds were couples, insects and animals and the rest too. God did something which the church of today never get its picture. God made a wife of this man from himself just to explain us the importance of oneness. Eve was part of Adam (Ephesians 5:23-32) and when she discuss with the Satan and said 'God said ....' she meant Adam said ..... So was from God to Adam to Eve, this is different to the Nations (Gentiles) in them a woman or man either one can be the head of the house. Its so much confusions since we the Nations (Gentiles) have a chance to enter the Kingdom of God , we came to the Kingdom with our Democracy ideas (Democracy is opposite to Kingship's ideology) we want to introduce 'equal rights' which associates TWO people. In church of today, the woman don't want to be women for God, they prefer to be men and do the responsibilities of men, count by yourself, if any woman talking about equal she will stand and quote the verses which God telling a man and she'll never discuss the responsibilities of a woman according the scriptures, because she like to become a man. This causes great tribulations in church movement of finding how to became ONE as Jesus's great prayer to his ''wife'' John 17:21-23. I answer the question: Once a woman (of God) is connected to her husband, she'll make her husband connected to God, and she'll do all her husband duties just like him Psalms 60:12, Romans 8:31.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,941
10,452
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#64
I would like to respond and help some people's point of views: In order to set the basic question "Are men in authority over women?" in a right place, we have to understand who is asked this question? First we have to study again to understand the creation and its components right the way the holy bible states. All creatures and everything in this world was made the way Genesis one describes, that's why when you enter second chapter, it start by confirming that the 'creation' was made in chapter one. In chapter 1 verse 27 it clearly says that God 'created' male & female at same time just like fish, animals birds, insects and trees in same style 'after his kinds' by His WORD just like the rest of creations, which means there were created all creed as ''after his kind''. In chapter two, God formed a man, this man was alone, and was made handmaiden and Lord God gave him His 'breath of life' totally different to chapter one those who were couples, fishes were couples, birds were couples, insects and animals and the rest too. God did something which the church of today never get its picture. God made a wife of this man from himself just to explain us the importance of oneness. Eve was part of Adam (Ephesians 5:23-32) and when she discuss with the Satan and said 'God said ....' she meant Adam said ..... So was from God to Adam to Eve, this is different to the Nations (Gentiles) in them a woman or man either one can be the head of the house. Its so much confusions since we the Nations (Gentiles) have a chance to enter the Kingdom of God , we came to the Kingdom with our Democracy ideas (Democracy is opposite to Kingship's ideology) we want to introduce 'equal rights' which associates TWO people. In church of today, the woman don't want to be women for God, they prefer to be men and do the responsibilities of men, count by yourself, if any woman talking about equal she will stand and quote the verses which God telling a man and she'll never discuss the responsibilities of a woman according the scriptures, because she like to become a man. This causes great tribulations in church movement of finding how to became ONE as Jesus's great prayer to his ''wife'' John 17:21-23. I answer the question: Once a woman (of God) is connected to her husband, she'll make her husband connected to God, and she'll do all her husband duties just like him Psalms 60:12, Romans 8:31.
Welcome to CC, Jakyzee!

Several points... first, none of this is meant as a personal attack, so please don't take offense.

It's helpful to break your post up into groups of five or six lines at most, with blank lines between. Otherwise, it's just a "wall of text" and is more difficult to read (many people will just skip it).

You stated that "fishes were couples, birds were couples, insects and animals and the rest too." I know it's a secondary point, but your assertion is not from Scripture, and it is not true across the animal kingdom. Some creatures reproduce asexually. Many creatures, though the reproduce sexually, do not form "couples".

You seem to suggest that equal rights is not a biblical concept. Equal rights is actually rooted in the view that all humans are made in God's image. As such, men and women do have equal rights; democracy, while related, is not the root of the idea.

You make assertions about "women" in the church. I don't see evidence in my church to support your assertion. Perhaps you mean some women? Sure; and some men in the church don't want to conform to the biblical standard either.

Responsibilities of women according to the Scriptures? Were Matthew 28:19, Galatians 5:22-23 and Ephesians 4 intended only for men? I don't think so.

You mention marriage as though it is the normative state for women. What of single women, divorcees, and widows? Are they irrelevant because they aren't married? Their value in the church is not less than that of a married woman. An ecclesiology that overlooks a large portion of the church cannot be valid.

Finally, you stated this: "Once a woman (of God) is connected to her husband, she'll make her husband connected to God..." Perhaps I misunderstood your point, but a women cannot "make her husband connected to God" (nor can he make her so). Either he is, independently of her, or he isn't.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,941
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#65
The difference maybe is in the environment? Actual church is different than the training ground. Sometimes teachers are just good at training students. Just like coaches, they don't actually play.
That's an awfully convenient distinction, but let's run with it for a moment...

Jane Doe has a doctorate in theology and teaches in a denominational Christian college. She's a gifted instructor with a solid grasp of the Word who has taught generations of young men who have gone on to pastoral roles. Her local denominational church, where she has attended for decades, has an adult bible study class in which most of the attendees are "lay" Christians. She is by far the most knowledgeable teacher in the congregation, yet she is forbidden from teaching the class simply because of her gender.

But she doesn't actually "play".

It's only out of politeness that I hold back my sarcasm.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
13,323
3,516
113
#66
That's an awfully convenient distinction, but let's run with it for a moment...

Jane Doe has a doctorate in theology and teaches in a denominational Christian college. She's a gifted instructor with a solid grasp of the Word who has taught generations of young men who have gone on to pastoral roles. Her local denominational church, where she has attended for decades, has an adult bible study class in which most of the attendees are "lay" Christians. She is by far the most knowledgeable teacher in the congregation, yet she is forbidden from teaching the class simply because of her gender.

But she doesn't actually "play".

It's only out of politeness that I hold back my sarcasm.

Thanks for this awesome example, Dino.

After I had moved on from the Lutheran church, the next church I attended had a female member who was well-known because she was a professional medical doctor and probably half or more of the congregation were her patients. She was also a pilot (because she wanted to be able to help transport supplies for aid to disaster areas), as well as serving as a local county sheriff (I once joked, "Are you sure that 'DR. KATHRYN' isn't really God?")

Any time she found a hindrance to her service of others, she would go after the specific degree/certification that would open the door for her to help the people she was being kept from assisting.

And fortunately, the church I went to didn't waste her talents. She regularly taught classes and led missionary trips (she could even fly the plane if needed), and was a pillar of leadership and service within that church.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,151
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Philippines Age 40
#67
That's an awfully convenient distinction, but let's run with it for a moment...

Jane Doe has a doctorate in theology and teaches in a denominational Christian college. She's a gifted instructor with a solid grasp of the Word who has taught generations of young men who have gone on to pastoral roles. Her local denominational church, where she has attended for decades, has an adult bible study class in which most of the attendees are "lay" Christians. She is by far the most knowledgeable teacher in the congregation, yet she is forbidden from teaching the class simply because of her gender.

But she doesn't actually "play".

It's only out of politeness that I hold back my sarcasm.
Why is she forbidden to teach in class? Do you mean forbidden to teach in church as a pastor because of gender? To teach in school is different than to be a pastor in church. Teachers have different specialties. Pastors learn from different teachers. I hope you get what I mean.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
13,323
3,516
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#68
Why is she forbidden to teach in class? Do you mean forbidden to teach in church as a pastor because of gender? To teach in school is different than to be a pastor in church. Teachers have different specialties. Pastors learn from different teachers. I hope you get what I mean.
I think Dino is just trying to clarify the very reason I wrote this post (and I'm thankful that he has.)

My main point in this thread was that I grew up in a denomination that thoroughly enforced only men having the authority in the church with an iron fist (and if that's what God is leading them to do, I'm not trying to knock that.)

But at the same time, at their Christian schools and colleges, it is somehow allowed and seen as normal to have women on the faculty staff of the college they rely on to bring up the next generation of teachers and (all male) pastors, and by this time, the males these women are teaching are full-grown men themselves.

My purpose it to try to point out these kinds of inconsistencies within churches, and ask: Why is this happening, and why is it allowed to go on in well-established denominations, because doesn't anyone else notice a problem with this?
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,151
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Philippines Age 40
#69
I think Dino is just trying to clarify the very reason I wrote this post (and I'm thankful that he has.)

My main point in this thread was that I grew up in a denomination that thoroughly enforced only men having the authority in the church with an iron fist (and if that's what God is leading them to do, I'm not trying to knock that.)

But at the same time, at their Christian schools and colleges, it is somehow allowed and seen as normal to have women on the faculty staff of the college they rely on to bring up the next generation of teachers and (all male) pastors, and by this time, the males these women are teaching are full-grown men themselves.

My purpose it to try to point out these kinds of inconsistencies within churches, and ask: Why is this happening, and why is it allowed to go on in well-established denominations, because doesn't anyone else notice a problem with this?

I get what you mean. Preaching is a gift after all. If a woman has that gift, then God will definitely use her. I was actually reached out by a woman pastor. She was a good preacher. But the leadership of a man in the church is still different, strong is the right word, specially if he has the support of a wife. Even in the mission field, those who are single don't last very long.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,941
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#70
I get what you mean. Preaching is a gift after all. If a woman has that gift, then God will definitely use her. I was actually reached out by a woman pastor. She was a good preacher. But the leadership of a man in the church is still different, strong is the right word, specially if he has the support of a wife. Even in the mission field, those who are single don't last very long.
Respectfully, your ideas are inconsistent.

Women are not forbidden from preaching anywhere in Scripture. Women are not forbidden from being pastors anywhere in Scripture. Women are not forbidden from being leaders anywhere in Scripture.

Women are forbidden from all these roles because men, using poor translations and poor hermeneutics, interpret a few select passages of Scripture, ignore others, and make broad practical doctrine forbidding women from these roles, but are quite happy (in some cases, not all) to let women fulfill these roles in both colleges and children's ministries. Yes, men generally lead differently from women, because men are different from women, but the differences are not relevant to the ability to lead.

By the way, I suggest you do some more reading about missionaries.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,303
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#71
The difference maybe is in the environment? Actual church is different than the training ground. Sometimes teachers are just good at training students. Just like coaches, they don't actually play.
Really not sure. It seems odd to say a woman can't have authority over a man, but then she teaches him to preach and have authority in the church. It's a distinction without a difference.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
#73
That's unfortunate, because it is not even consistent with what Paul wrote...

1 Timothy 2:12

KJV: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
NASB: But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
NIV: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
The key word in this is "I". It does not state what God allows or permits.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
6,266
5,270
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#74
My purpose it to try to point out these kinds of inconsistencies within churches, and ask: Why is this happening, and why is it allowed to go on in well-established denominations, because doesn't anyone else notice a problem with this?
I am definitely noticing it now. I never went to a Bible School, so I never faced the prospect of having women teaching me about religious issues. Thank you all for not giving up on this thread and this question. It is a good one.
 
K

Kim82

Guest
#75
Can anyone tell me what these verses mean, when Paul says he is giving his opinion?

  • 1 Cor. 7:12, "But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, let him not send her away."
  • 1 Cor. 7:25, "Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy."
  • 2 Cor. 11:17, "That which I am speaking, I am not speaking as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting."
When Paul said the women should remain silent and speak to their husband's at home, perhaps it was a way to maintain order or cut down on noise as someone said. Perhaps men sat on one side and woman sat on the other so whatever they didn't understand they would shout across to their husbands for clarification. Perhaps the women in those days only did chores and had babies, they didn't go to school and lacked understanding. They must have been noisy. I said "perhaps".

But if the wives were to ask their husbands at home, who were the single women to ask?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
6,266
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#76
The key word in this is "I". It does not state what God allows or permits.
('I' referencing Paul)

I really hate to go this route. Can't we say that this did not start with Pau?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
6,266
5,270
113
#77
Be sensitive to the Spirits leading on this one, Seoulsearch. That's allways rule #1. It's not a cop-out, either.
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
545
181
43
39
Merced, CA
#78
Hello,

I've seen the debate over whether or not women can be pastors/lead in the church many times, and have gone through many Bible studies in which this is discussed and examined. I also grew up in a church that did NOT believe women could hold positions of authority, unless it was as a deaconess to younger women in the church.

This is NOT meant to be a debate over whether women can be pastors at all.

Rather, I once read a post that addressed something that really sparked my interest, seeing as I grew up in Christian schools.

* If women are not allowed to speak or be leaders/teachers in the church, why are women relied on to teach Sunday School, vacation Bible school, and in Christian schools and colleges (such as what I grew up in)?

* Why do many of these tasks (geared toward children and young adults) seem to automatically be deligated as "women's work"? And yet, I would guess most parents in the churches I grew up in would not bring their kids to Sunday School if the entire Sunday School staff was all men.

I am certainly NOT saying ANYTHING against men who work in ministries that serve children--I'm just saying that when I've asked some parents how they would feel about dropping their kids off with an all-male Sunday School/children/teen church staff, they're don't seem to be entirely comfortable with the idea. But maybe this is only in the churches I've been in?

I have to wonder why it's so often thought that it's perfectly fine (even expected, and a spiritual duty) for women to teach and lead children, and young adults, but not full-grown adults? (I don't meant this as a debate or a criticism, but as an honest question.)

* Does that mean that once her students turn 18 (or 21, or whatever age is defined as being an "adult"), any spiritual leadership and authority she had over them the day before their "adulthood" birthday is now null and void, and does a male studen now automatically have spiritual authority over her, even if she's twice his age?

* If so, why are women allowed to teach at Christian colleges?

* And if a woman loses any spiritual authority over a man when he comes of age, what is being taught in churches to reinforce this? Are young men told that they now have spiritual leadership and authority over the women in the church once they turn that age?

* Will the men of the church tell their wives that they must follow and submit to the spiritual lead of any 18-year-old (or whatever the age of adulthood is seen as) on the ministry staff?

* Why is this topic never addressed whenever it's said that women can't hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church?

I would really like to see this discussed, as it always seemed to be glossed over.

Is a woman allowed to teach your male child/relative, but does he then have spiritual authority over her in the church once he becomes an adult?
Titus2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women
to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Genesis 3:13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me
, and I ate.”
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”


1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.


God is a God of order. This is the foundation of things. So whether Paul says, Jesus teaches, or God commands we are to obey.

The woman was decieved and this caused man to sin. The man was given authority to rule over the woman. Seeing that the woman is the weaker vessel susceptive to deception, it is the mans spiritual authority to lead. This doesnt mean that man cannot also be decieved, but the consequences fall on the man. So man should be held accountable to teach, lead, and be the head.

Women play a key role in the structure, just because she isnt the head does not make her insignificant. Men have a duty to women. Women are helpful in teaching children and young women to be godly wives.

Im not sure why Christian colleges allow women to teach, but I do not believe in bible college to begin with. So I am biased when jumping to the conclusion, that they are not doing things according to Gods Word. The scriptures I listed are indicators of such.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,151
1,126
113
Philippines Age 40
#79
Respectfully, your ideas are inconsistent.

Women are not forbidden from preaching anywhere in Scripture. Women are not forbidden from being pastors anywhere in Scripture. Women are not forbidden from being leaders anywhere in Scripture.

Women are forbidden from all these roles because men, using poor translations and poor hermeneutics, interpret a few select passages of Scripture, ignore others, and make broad practical doctrine forbidding women from these roles, but are quite happy (in some cases, not all) to let women fulfill these roles in both colleges and children's ministries. Yes, men generally lead differently from women, because men are different from women, but the differences are not relevant to the ability to lead.

By the way, I suggest you do some more reading about missionaries.

I was just trying to understand why the church mentioned in the OP is forbidding women to preach. The reason maybe is it is just the stand of that particular church. But what I was trying to say is that women can preach in church maybe in the singles ministry or women's group. But I believe that the lead pastor is a more suited for a man, preferably a married man because the church also has a married' s group. That is based on the premise that men are leaders and women are supporters as originally designed by God.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
36,245
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Tennessee
#80
Yes woman are to be silent in their private affairs and ask there own husbands at home but women like men are sent out two by two with the gospel .The reformation has come the government is restored to the time period of Judges. Watch out for those Deborah's they can sting like a Bee when God sends them out.
Not every woman has a husband at home to ask questions about what was said or taught at church.