In the beginning

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PC123

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2020
785
428
63
Australia
#1
God created the heavens and the earth...

What happens next... Are the 7 days literal 7 days? If so then how is it possible for Satan to already be there to tempt Eve?
Is that enough for the war in heaven and for Lucifer to be banished with 1/3 of the angels?


Also God makes the sun, moon and stars on day for. Therefore what light does he shine on the 1st day to clear away the darkness?

Maybe there is a considerable amount of time after God made the heavens and earth. The way the 2nd verse starts with "now" makes it sound like there was some time lost in between. Who knows how much time there was before then.
And i read something that suggested that this darkness at the start was evil and that God shines His light to flush it away so he can begin creating...


There are a few different beliefs on creation so let me hear them...
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
6,701
1,878
113
#2
God did it. Moses could not possibly provide all God did and describe it to the letter. The whole point to Genesis is God said: and it happen

WE do not know how long the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the deep. WE do not know the time frame of when the serpent tempted Eve how many days after God rested it's not there what we do know IS God came as HE did many times before to walk with Adam and HE (His presence) came to seek Adam on this day. WE don't know how many days after God blessed the seventh-day man fell.

Also, Adam died at 930 years old how long was he in the garden only 7 days? I think not. Adam named all the animal s a few hours? and those in the sea?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,293
4,526
113
#3
Gods time is not our time, and His days are not our days........truth is, it may be fun to wonder and contemplate such as this, but, when it comes to salvation, it really does not matter.....

If one wants to question what God did or did not do, try considering that God raised Jesus from the dead. (His earthly body) That DOES have something to do with salvation and our eternal lives.
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,371
421
83
70
#4
God created the heavens and the earth...

What happens next... Are the 7 days literal 7 days? If so then how is it possible for Satan to already be there to tempt Eve?
Is that enough for the war in heaven and for Lucifer to be banished with 1/3 of the angels?


Also God makes the sun, moon and stars on day for. Therefore what light does he shine on the 1st day to clear away the darkness?

Maybe there is a considerable amount of time after God made the heavens and earth. The way the 2nd verse starts with "now" makes it sound like there was some time lost in between. Who knows how much time there was before then.
And i read something that suggested that this darkness at the start was evil and that God shines His light to flush it away so he can begin creating...


There are a few different beliefs on creation so let me hear them...
Here's the evidence;
  1. Genesis 1:1 is a complete stand-alone sentence in the Hebrew. The word "creation" ("bara" - Heb.) is not used again until God made the living creatures.
  2. The rest of Genesis 1 uses the word "asah" which means "to build or make out of existing materials". That means, except for the living creatures, everything done in Genesis 1:2 onward is with materials that were already in place
  3. Genesis 1:2, when literally translated is; "But the earth became a chaos, and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." This strongly indicates that the earth was in good order and something catastrophic happened
  4. The condition of being covered by water and in darkness strongly suggests God's judgement, especially when the heavenly lights were still in place
  5. The "days" (except the first Sabbath) that followed were defined by the Holy Spirit - "the evening and the morning" - 24 hours from sunset to sunset
  6. God is never the author of chaos (Isa.45:18). Something else must have caused the chaos of verse 2
This view is disputed, but the most likely thing that happened is that God made the earth in good order. His first governor was Lucifer. Sometime after he became "Prince of this world", he rebelled and his rebellion caused God's judgment. But God can never look upon chaos forever. So in due course He restored the earth to pristine condition in six 24-hour-days, and set a new governor - man, on the earth to "subdue it" and then rule it. This will account for Satan's presence there. According to Job 38, the Lord made the angels before the earth because they rejoiced when God laid the foundations of the earth (v.6-7).
 

PC123

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2020
785
428
63
Australia
#5
Well. Did u put that together? I never heard that.
Every time iv tried to put my 1st view across, it gets trampled on by the majority, ive found.
I had theorized that maybe the earth had gone through a cycle cos in Revelation there is a new earth after this one, isn't there...
But I didn't click onto what u said which looks so obvious now. Lucifer, the prince of this world. Off course.
And then the quote from Job literally confirms it... Wow... The probability of this being accurate is high i think. Very high

These words felt very motherly/fatherly and the wisdom they imparted was profound. I had to see, who are you...
Ah ok... Pleased to meet you sir. Wisdom comes with age unfortunately for me... LoL... Your my mums age.
Is that a common view?
 

PC123

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2020
785
428
63
Australia
#6
Here's the evidence;
  1. Genesis 1:1 is a complete stand-alone sentence in the Hebrew. The word "creation" ("bara" - Heb.) is not used again until God made the living creatures.
  2. The rest of Genesis 1 uses the word "asah" which means "to build or make out of existing materials". That means, except for the living creatures, everything done in Genesis 1:2 onward is with materials that were already in place
  3. Genesis 1:2, when literally translated is; "But the earth became a chaos, and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." This strongly indicates that the earth was in good order and something catastrophic happened
  4. The condition of being covered by water and in darkness strongly suggests God's judgement, especially when the heavenly lights were still in place
  5. The "days" (except the first Sabbath) that followed were defined by the Holy Spirit - "the evening and the morning" - 24 hours from sunset to sunset
  6. God is never the author of chaos (Isa.45:18). Something else must have caused the chaos of verse 2
This view is disputed, but the most likely thing that happened is that God made the earth in good order. His first governor was Lucifer. Sometime after he became "Prince of this world", he rebelled and his rebellion caused God's judgment. But God can never look upon chaos forever. So in due course He restored the earth to pristine condition in six 24-hour-days, and set a new governor - man, on the earth to "subdue it" and then rule it. This will account for Satan's presence there. According to Job 38, the Lord made the angels before the earth because they rejoiced when God laid the foundations of the earth (v.6-7).
Hi Corban. Please read my post above this first as it was in response to you.

I'd just like to say where i was in my though process when trying to comprehend the "prince of this world"
Iv spent a fair amount of time pondering the meaning of that. My thoughts were

"the prince" - So he is the son of God? Christ is but. How is Satan the son of God?
"of this world" - So his inheriting this world or inherited? God made this world and is giving it to Satan? What wh?
So there's a king of this world still? Is he in charge? Or is Satan in charge?


So my thought process there was so close yet also so very far. But then came the Holy Spirit and through your words, has made such a fantastic revelation, im trying not to get carried away by it but it. I can see how the Mormons believe Lucifer is Jesus' brother, its possible, scripture doesn't refute the claim...
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,371
421
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70
#8
Hi Corban. Please read my post above this first as it was in response to you.

I'd just like to say where i was in my though process when trying to comprehend the "prince of this world"
Iv spent a fair amount of time pondering the meaning of that. My thoughts were

"the prince" - So he is the son of God? Christ is but. How is Satan the son of God?
"of this world" - So his inheriting this world or inherited? God made this world and is giving it to Satan? What wh?
So there's a king of this world still? Is he in charge? Or is Satan in charge?


So my thought process there was so close yet also so very far. But then came the Holy Spirit and through your words, has made such a fantastic revelation, im trying not to get carried away by it but it. I can see how the Mormons believe Lucifer is Jesus' brother, its possible, scripture doesn't refute the claim...
Yes, all those years ago, when it was shown to me, I rejoiced. If you are really interested in all this I can recommend a book by G. H. Pember, called; "Earth's Earliest Ages". It is probably out of print, but you might get lucky at Schoettles Publications in the USA.

https://www.schoettlepublishing.com/

G. H. Pember was widely regarded as the best eschatologist of the Victorian age. You will see how precise and accurate he is with God's Word if you get his books. But you must also remember that very qualified men disagree with him. In the end, you will decide - like I did.

As to Lucifer being who he is, there are two things to consider; (i) How he is a "son of God", and (ii) how he is "Prince of this world".

"Sons of God"
The term "sons of God" is applied to four parties in the Bible, (i) Jesus, (ii) Christians, (iii) Mankind, and (iv) angels. The overall meaning of "sons of God" is that the creature had its ORIGIN in God. But when we come to HOW they had their ORIGIN, it is then that hige differences appear. Our Lord Jesus is "begotten" by God via the Holy Spirit - making Him a Son by divine SEED. Christians are begotten by God but it starts in the human spirit only (Jn.3:6). The soul of man must be transformed and the body must die and be resurrected. Adam is called "son of God" in Luke 3 because God made him. And so also with angels. they are called "sons of God" not by birth, but by creation. All have their ORIGIN in God, but the manner of ORIGIN is very different.

"Prince of this world"
God is a God of order. Romans Chapter 1 says that we can learn about God from the creation. And the creation has many natural laws like the law of gravity, the laws of thermodynamics, the laws of aerodynamics, etc. These laws cause the universe to be orderly. And so it is among His living creatures that God puts GOVERNMENT in place. There is government among insects, among animals, and among men and angels. And God's chiefest government is in His relationship with His creature. God is eternal. But His creature is not. This alone causes a massive difference, and a problem for His holiness. So in Psalm 113:6 we learn that God must "humble Himself" just to look at His creature - no matter its beauty, intricacy and size. So it is God's pleasure to have MEDIATORS between Him and His creature.

When Moses built the Tabernacle, God's place was on the "Mercy Seat" of the Ark behind a Veil. The High Priest of Israel was allowed, once a year, with special washings, sacrifices and clothes, to enter the Holy of Holies behind the Veil. But even then, there was another protection for God's holiness - two golden Cherubim with overshadowing wings. This job or "overshadowing" and/or protecting God's presence from the creature was given to Lucifer. He was the "Covering Cherub" (Ezek.28:16) for all of creation. But he was temporary because God's holiness deserves One LIKE Him to be His Protector and Mediator. God's council was to "Head Up" (lit. Gk.) ALL things in Jesus (Eph.1:10). God's Prince was not to be a creature by His creation, but a creature BY BIRTH. God's Mediator could only be truly LIKE Him, if He came out from Him via His SEED (Gen.1:11-12).

But in the interim, until Jesus was presented to the creation, Lucifer was given the talent and the ability and God's choice for this high calling. But just as Moses must step aside for Aaron in matters of the High Priest of God's dwelling place, So must Lucifer, though chiefest of all living beings, step aside for Jesus, Firstborn of all creation and Heir to all things. But in his capacity as GOVERNOR of EARTH, he retains God's Title for Him. Pharaoh is KING of Egypt, Joseph is Prince of Egypt. "Prince" means royalty and position, but not the highest Seat. Obviously 8and there might be more than this) Lucifer did not like to be lowered a notch by the New Prince - Jesus. And he rebelled. All this took place long before Adam was made.

Adam was made to first "subdue" Lucifer, and then rule the earth instead (Gen.1:26-28). Instead, Adam refused Gods GOVERNMENT! Adam did two very foolish things. (i) God, his King, told him to eat from the Tree of Life - which he didn't, and (ii) Adam listened to his wife - his subordinate. Eve equally did two foolish things. She did not eat from the Tree of Life, and she did not discuss the matter with her HEAD - Adam. One always reaps what one sows. Adam, instead of being the new "Prince of this world" had subordinated himself and Eve had dishonored God's government. Lucifer, instead of being subdued by Adam and Eve, subjugated them - and so he retains his title "Prince of this world". That is, until Jesus takes it from him.

Adam sinned, not because he was fooled. Adam sinned because he overthrew God's government. He did not obey and eat of the Tree of Life, and he consulted with his wife instead of HIS HEAD - Jehovah. He forfeits his position as "prince", and Lucifer may rule on for another 6,000 years.
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
221
43
#9
God created the heavens and the earth...

What happens next... Are the 7 days literal 7 days? If so then how is it possible for Satan to already be there to tempt Eve?
Is that enough for the war in heaven and for Lucifer to be banished with 1/3 of the angels?


Also God makes the sun, moon and stars on day for. Therefore what light does he shine on the 1st day to clear away the darkness?

Maybe there is a considerable amount of time after God made the heavens and earth. The way the 2nd verse starts with "now" makes it sound like there was some time lost in between. Who knows how much time there was before then.
And i read something that suggested that this darkness at the start was evil and that God shines His light to flush it away so he can begin creating...


There are a few different beliefs on creation so let me hear them...
Does this come into play for creation?

‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.​

It’s not really a belief of mine...I just thought of this verse when I read what you wrote.
 
Oct 19, 2020
723
160
43
#10
Here's the evidence;
  1. Genesis 1:1 is a complete stand-alone sentence in the Hebrew. The word "creation" ("bara" - Heb.) is not used again until God made the living creatures.
  2. The rest of Genesis 1 uses the word "asah" which means "to build or make out of existing materials". That means, except for the living creatures, everything done in Genesis 1:2 onward is with materials that were already in place
  3. Genesis 1:2, when literally translated is; "But the earth became a chaos, and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." This strongly indicates that the earth was in good order and something catastrophic happened
  4. The condition of being covered by water and in darkness strongly suggests God's judgement, especially when the heavenly lights were still in place
  5. The "days" (except the first Sabbath) that followed were defined by the Holy Spirit - "the evening and the morning" - 24 hours from sunset to sunset
  6. God is never the author of chaos (Isa.45:18). Something else must have caused the chaos of verse 2
This view is disputed, but the most likely thing that happened is that God made the earth in good order. His first governor was Lucifer. Sometime after he became "Prince of this world", he rebelled and his rebellion caused God's judgment. But God can never look upon chaos forever. So in due course He restored the earth to pristine condition in six 24-hour-days, and set a new governor - man, on the earth to "subdue it" and then rule it. This will account for Satan's presence there. According to Job 38, the Lord made the angels before the earth because they rejoiced when God laid the foundations of the earth (v.6-7).

Luciferian Flood Theory?
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,371
421
83
70
#11
Luciferian Flood Theory?
I suppose you could call it that. But Lucifer most probably does not have the power to cover all the earth in water. That is the domain of the Creator. "Theory?" Certainly. But, what do you think of the evidence?
 

PC123

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2020
785
428
63
Australia
#12
Yes, all those years ago, when it was shown to me, I rejoiced. If you are really interested in all this I can recommend a book by G. H. Pember, called; "Earth's Earliest Ages". It is probably out of print, but you might get lucky at Schoettles Publications in the USA.

https://www.schoettlepublishing.com/

G. H. Pember was widely regarded as the best eschatologist of the Victorian age. You will see how precise and accurate he is with God's Word if you get his books. But you must also remember that very qualified men disagree with him. In the end, you will decide - like I did.
I felt like i was the only person who was thinking along this line but it was incomplete until now. I am rejoicing but I keep reminding myself that i must not declare this to be infallible but rather most probable to me.

Im noticing that peoples pride tends to keep their mind closed, fixed to one specific interpretation of something regardless of what opposing evidence is presented. I think im lucky because the evil one doesn't seem to use his tool of pride on me much, though im always checking myself. He has his own favourite weapons to use on me. Hate and anger. But this inability of men to turn back to the truth has been documented by many intelligent men in the past.

As u said, there have been many learned men over the centuries who have sharp disagreements and there is always a possibility that our feeble mind is in error somewhere or another.

As to Lucifer being who he is, there are two things to consider; (i) How he is a "son of God", and (ii) how he is "Prince of this world".

"Sons of God"
The term "sons of God" is applied to four parties in the Bible, (i) Jesus, (ii) Christians, (iii) Mankind, and (iv) angels. The overall meaning of "sons of God" is that the creature had its ORIGIN in God. But when we come to HOW they had their ORIGIN, it is then that hige differences appear. Our Lord Jesus is "begotten" by God via the Holy Spirit - making Him a Son by divine SEED. Christians are begotten by God but it starts in the human spirit only (Jn.3:6). The soul of man must be transformed and the body must die and be resurrected. Adam is called "son of God" in Luke 3 because God made him. And so also with angels. they are called "sons of God" not by birth, but by creation. All have their ORIGIN in God, but the manner of ORIGIN is very different.

"Prince of this world"
God is a God of order. Romans Chapter 1 says that we can learn about God from the creation. And the creation has many natural laws like the law of gravity, the laws of thermodynamics, the laws of aerodynamics, etc. These laws cause the universe to be orderly. And so it is among His living creatures that God puts GOVERNMENT in place. There is government among insects, among animals, and among men and angels. And God's chiefest government is in His relationship with His creature. God is eternal. But His creature is not. This alone causes a massive difference, and a problem for His holiness. So in Psalm 113:6 we learn that God must "humble Himself" just to look at His creature - no matter its beauty, intricacy and size. So it is God's pleasure to have MEDIATORS between Him and His creature.

When Moses built the Tabernacle, God's place was on the "Mercy Seat" of the Ark behind a Veil. The High Priest of Israel was allowed, once a year, with special washings, sacrifices and clothes, to enter the Holy of Holies behind the Veil. But even then, there was another protection for God's holiness - two golden Cherubim with overshadowing wings. This job or "overshadowing" and/or protecting God's presence from the creature was given to Lucifer. He was the "Covering Cherub" (Ezek.28:16) for all of creation. But he was temporary because God's holiness deserves One LIKE Him to be His Protector and Mediator. God's council was to "Head Up" (lit. Gk.) ALL things in Jesus (Eph.1:10). God's Prince was not to be a creature by His creation, but a creature BY BIRTH. God's Mediator could only be truly LIKE Him, if He came out from Him via His SEED (Gen.1:11-12).

But in the interim, until Jesus was presented to the creation, Lucifer was given the talent and the ability and God's choice for this high calling. But just as Moses must step aside for Aaron in matters of the High Priest of God's dwelling place, So must Lucifer, though chiefest of all living beings, step aside for Jesus, Firstborn of all creation and Heir to all things. But in his capacity as GOVERNOR of EARTH, he retains God's Title for Him. Pharaoh is KING of Egypt, Joseph is Prince of Egypt. "Prince" means royalty and position, but not the highest Seat. Obviously 8and there might be more than this) Lucifer did not like to be lowered a notch by the New Prince - Jesus. And he rebelled. All this took place long before Adam was made.

Adam was made to first "subdue" Lucifer, and then rule the earth instead (Gen.1:26-28). Instead, Adam refused Gods GOVERNMENT! Adam did two very foolish things. (i) God, his King, told him to eat from the Tree of Life - which he didn't, and (ii) Adam listened to his wife - his subordinate. Eve equally did two foolish things. She did not eat from the Tree of Life, and she did not discuss the matter with her HEAD - Adam. One always reaps what one sows. Adam, instead of being the new "Prince of this world" had subordinated himself and Eve had dishonored God's government. Lucifer, instead of being subdued by Adam and Eve, subjugated them - and so he retains his title "Prince of this world". That is, until Jesus takes it from him.

Adam sinned, not because he was fooled. Adam sinned because he overthrew God's government. He did not obey and eat of the Tree of Life, and he consulted with his wife instead of HIS HEAD - Jehovah. He forfeits his position as "prince", and Lucifer may rule on for another 6,000 years.
Yes. I think maybe the term hierarchy would be most appropriate. For me the term government brings up images of corrupt humans and their evil little plots and feels like an insufficient term for Gods order.

I thank you once again for your words of wisdom
Godspeed and God bless
 
Oct 19, 2020
723
160
43
#13
I suppose you could call it that. But Lucifer most probably does not have the power to cover all the earth in water. That is the domain of the Creator. "Theory?" Certainly. But, what do you think of the evidence?
Yeshua said He saw Satan falling as if it were lightning. So he is going fast and looks like a speed of light bullet. If God literally booted Satan from Heaven and he crashed like an asteroid falling like streaks of lightning making contact directly with Earth...who knows what God is capable of doing while not crushing Satan completely.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,502
1,455
113
#15
God created the heavens and the earth...

What happens next... Are the 7 days literal 7 days? If so then how is it possible for Satan to already be there to tempt Eve?
Is that enough for the war in heaven and for Lucifer to be banished with 1/3 of the angels?


Also God makes the sun, moon and stars on day for. Therefore what light does he shine on the 1st day to clear away the darkness?

Maybe there is a considerable amount of time after God made the heavens and earth. The way the 2nd verse starts with "now" makes it sound like there was some time lost in between. Who knows how much time there was before then.
And i read something that suggested that this darkness at the start was evil and that God shines His light to flush it away so he can begin creating...


There are a few different beliefs on creation so let me hear them...
I think it would say so if that was the case .
 

PC123

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2020
785
428
63
Australia
#16
I think it would say so if that was the case .
In many ways, it does appear to say so...

How do u suppose Satan was able to be in position on the 7th day to tempt Eve?
Or how is there light on the 1st day when God didn't create the sun or moon till the 4th day?
And why would anyone begin the 2nd verse with "now" if it wasn't in a different time?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,502
1,455
113
#17
In many ways, it does appear to say so...

How do u suppose Satan was able to be in position on the 7th day to tempt Eve?
Or how is there light on the 1st day when God didn't create the sun or moon till the 4th day?
And why would anyone begin the 2nd verse with "now" if it wasn't in a different time?
I think it would literally give the account and not leave us speculating. It doesn't , so its not true .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,502
1,455
113
#18
In many ways, it does appear to say so...

How do u suppose Satan was able to be in position on the 7th day to tempt Eve?
Or how is there light on the 1st day when God didn't create the sun or moon till the 4th day?
And why would anyone begin the 2nd verse with "now" if it wasn't in a different time?
It says There was light . So I believe this because that is what it says . God creates light. Literally . its safer to believe this and assume that the sun is not his only means of doing this. Than inventing a whole new creation account to fit our ideas and philosophy about how we think God must create stuff .
 

PC123

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2020
785
428
63
Australia
#19
It says There was light . So I believe this because that is what it says . God creates light. Literally . its safer to believe this and assume that the sun is not his only means of doing this. Than inventing a whole new creation account to fit our ideas and philosophy about how we think God must create stuff .
First of all, i never claimed such an idea to be infallible... I think its the most probable...
Its actually safer not to claim such infallibility as you seem to be doing. The safest way is to measure these things in probability.

You believe that version is most probable which is fine.
But you don't have a viable explanation as to how Satan arrives on the 7th day or why God does the day/night thing twice.
And why begin the 2nd verse with "now"? Wouldn't "and" be the correct term if it was a continuation of the 1st verse?

And haven't you ever heard of the light and the dark? It represents good and evil.
The bible is full of this particular allegory. It's so well known that it's even used outside of Christianity

Is all of the Bible to be read literally? Is all of Genesis to be read literally? Where is this rule mentioned?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
35,561
13,003
113
#20
Also God makes the sun, moon and stars on day for. Therefore what light does he shine on the 1st day to clear away the darkness?
Jesus Christ is the light and life of men :)