Interesting insight (John 3v36) OSAS take note

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#1
Two different words are used for believe in John 3v36. Using the KJV and Strongs concordance below:

John 3v36 KJV 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Strongs: 3:36 He that believeth 4100 5723 on 1519 the Son 5207 hath 2192 5719 everlasting 166 life 2222: and 1161 he that believeth not 544 5723 the Son 5207 shall 3700 0 not 3756 see 3700 5695 life 2222; but 235 the wrath 3709 of God 2316 abideth 3306 5719 on 1909 him 846.

- The first believeth is
Word: pisteuw
Pronounce: pist-yoo'-o
Strongs Number: G4100
Orig: from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. G4102
Use: TDNT-6:174,849 Verb
Heb Strong: H6004 H8085
1) to have faith in, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
2) by implication, to commit or entrust, i.e. to entrust your spiritual well-being to Christ
2a) to make a commitment (to trust)
2b) to put in trust with or place confidence in

- The second believeth is
Word: apeiqew
Pronounce: ap-i-theh'-o
Strongs Number: G544
Orig: from 545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):--not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. G545
Use: TDNT-6:10,818 Verb
Heb Strong: H2308 H3808 H3808 H3985 H3988 H4603 H4775 H4784 H4843 H5637 H8280
1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with



There is a glaringly obvious reason why a different word is used. The first one is to put your faith in. The second one is to heed and obey what He says.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,477
6,140
113
#3
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life...
Why did you not simply stay focused on this part of the verse? "Hath" means ALREADY HAS everlasting life, which means that eternal security is guaranteed.

So you just shot yourself in the foot. And there are no band aids in the second part of that verse.

However your persistence in this false belief means that you do not really believe God. Which means that you have a very serious problem to deal with.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,134
4,524
113
#4
He who continues in belief is saved, however there are provisions written of in the Word for those who live in sin again after coming to Yeshua. It is in the Book, not a band aide but truth.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
113
#5
Two different words are used for believe in John 3v36. Using the KJV and Strongs concordance below:

John 3v36 KJV 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Strongs: 3:36 He that believeth 4100 5723 on 1519 the Son 5207 hath 2192 5719 everlasting 166 life 2222: and 1161 he that believeth not 544 5723 the Son 5207 shall 3700 0 not 3756 see 3700 5695 life 2222; but 235 the wrath 3709 of God 2316 abideth 3306 5719 on 1909 him 846.

- The first believeth is
Word: pisteuw
Pronounce: pist-yoo'-o
Strongs Number: G4100
Orig: from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. G4102
Use: TDNT-6:174,849 Verb
Heb Strong: H6004 H8085
1) to have faith in, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
2) by implication, to commit or entrust, i.e. to entrust your spiritual well-being to Christ
2a) to make a commitment (to trust)
2b) to put in trust with or place confidence in

- The second believeth is
Word: apeiqew
Pronounce: ap-i-theh'-o
Strongs Number: G544
Orig: from 545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):--not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. G545
Use: TDNT-6:10,818 Verb
Heb Strong: H2308 H3808 H3808 H3985 H3988 H4603 H4775 H4784 H4843 H5637 H8280
1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with



There is a glaringly obvious reason why a different word is used. The first one is to put your faith in. The second one is to heed and obey what He says.

I think the first reference ( pisteuw) is to those who have freely been given the faith or power to beleive. While the second (apeiqew )shows they have no power or no faith . Where doubting wavers between the two masters .The flesh and the unseen spirit of truth .

Doubting is not the opposite of faith .Unbelief or no faith is
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,371
421
83
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#6
Two different words are used for believe in John 3v36. Using the KJV and Strongs concordance below:

John 3v36 KJV 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Strongs: 3:36 He that believeth 4100 5723 on 1519 the Son 5207 hath 2192 5719 everlasting 166 life 2222: and 1161 he that believeth not 544 5723 the Son 5207 shall 3700 0 not 3756 see 3700 5695 life 2222; but 235 the wrath 3709 of God 2316 abideth 3306 5719 on 1909 him 846.

- The first believeth is
Word: pisteuw
Pronounce: pist-yoo'-o
Strongs Number: G4100
Orig: from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. G4102
Use: TDNT-6:174,849 Verb
Heb Strong: H6004 H8085
1) to have faith in, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
2) by implication, to commit or entrust, i.e. to entrust your spiritual well-being to Christ
2a) to make a commitment (to trust)
2b) to put in trust with or place confidence in

- The second believeth is
Word: apeiqew
Pronounce: ap-i-theh'-o
Strongs Number: G544
Orig: from 545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):--not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. G545
Use: TDNT-6:10,818 Verb
Heb Strong: H2308 H3808 H3808 H3985 H3988 H4603 H4775 H4784 H4843 H5637 H8280
1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with



There is a glaringly obvious reason why a different word is used. The first one is to put your faith in. The second one is to heed and obey what He says.
You still have to complete your argument - if it pertains to the title of the thread.

Consider this. Romans 1:20 says that nature (or the creature) shows the things of God. A boy is born to his mother. They are a well-to-do family and know for their intelligence, resourcefulness, diligence and morals. The boy grows. He is a rebel. He refuses to subordinate himself, he steals, kills the pets, destroys the servants goods and insults his tutors. He finally lands in jail for 20 years. At what point is he UNBORN from his parents? At what point does he stop being a man and starts being a chimpanzee? WHAT!!!, you might say. Who said anything about being unborn and taking another nature?

The answer is; Half the Christian community!
  1. A man's sins are put away by a work of Christ - God has accepted this and put away sins. Can some puny sinner undo that work, or even worse, can a puny sinner cause God to lessen His opinion about what His Son Jesus did???
  2. A man is born to God by FAITH in Jesus. God accepts this faith and the man is born to God (Jn.1:12-13). When do his WORKS undo this birth by the ALL-mighty?
  3. A man receives eternal life by FAITH (Jn.3:14-16). At what point can eternal life END?
  4. A man is made "partaker of the divine nature" by FAITH (2nd Pet.1:4). At what point does this nature cease?
  5. A man is justified by the works of Christ while he is a sinner. At what stage does the man decide that the works of Christ are undone?
  6. A man is declared righteous with the righteousness of Christ BY GOD. At what stage does the man's works UNDO the righteousness of Christ?
  7. A man is sanctified by the works of Christ, not his own. At what point are his works the undoing of Christ's works
  8. A Christian is slothful in building the Church. His work is burned when tested. Yet he is saved but by fire (1st Cor.3:14-15)
  9. A Christian commits incest - a heinous sin. He must die . But his death is so that his spirit is saved at the judgment (1st Cor.5:5)
  10. A Christian is a son, and loved by his Father. The Father will then chastise, but not destroy completely
Every one of the above was wrought BY CHRIST and APPROVED by the Father. Who is the man, Christian or not, who can overturn the councils of God? Do we really think that a mere man, as evil as he might be, can overturn what God has established? What a low opinion some Christians have of God. God can give His eternal life and divine nature by a birth by the Holy Spirit - and yet a mere puny man can kill this life and undo divinity. Who is the man who thinks that he, or other men are more powerful with their evil than the attributes of the ALL-Mighty?

But you might say, God will not tolerate evil for ever. You are correct, but to combat it do you think that He will UNDO what His beloved Son did as so high a price? No! He will chastise and chastise. He will bring painful circumstances on the wayward Christian. He will cast him into a prison for 1,000 years. But He, being the ALL-Mighty, will achieve His goals. Who is the man who thinks he can be more stubborn than God Who needs no sleep. Nebuchadnezzar, the greatest and most fearsome king who ever lived and a Type of the coming Beast, and who is designated a head of GOLD by God, is putty in the hands of God. Seven years long must the greatest and most fearsome king live among the beasts of the field and eat grass. And what does he say when its over. He decrees the following:

34 "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"


I propose that Romans 8:31-39 is correct to the uttermost. It is not a matter of what man can do. It is what God can do that is decisive. I do not down play God's hand of chastisement. It is GRIEVOUS (Heb.12:11). The wayward Christian will be broken and even crushed to powder (Matt.21:24), but God has not predestined a man to partake of all the heavenly things and then cast him aside. No. God is greater than that by far. The Chritsian who thinks that he/she can do what they like is in for a rude and painful shock. But God will not undo what His Son paid so dearly for. God is true to Himself. His life is ETERNAL. Who can end it? His nature is DIVINE. Can somebody - creature, undo it?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,119
4,317
113
#7
Will he return? Yes? No?

Hmm..................
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,726
1,064
113
#8
You still have to complete your argument - if it pertains to the title of the thread.

Consider this. Romans 1:20 says that nature (or the creature) shows the things of God. A boy is born to his mother. They are a well-to-do family and know for their intelligence, resourcefulness, diligence and morals. The boy grows. He is a rebel. He refuses to subordinate himself, he steals, kills the pets, destroys the servants goods and insults his tutors. He finally lands in jail for 20 years. At what point is he UNBORN from his parents? At what point does he stop being a man and starts being a chimpanzee? WHAT!!!, you might say. Who said anything about being unborn and taking another nature?

The answer is; Half the Christian community!
  1. A man's sins are put away by a work of Christ - God has accepted this and put away sins. Can some puny sinner undo that work, or even worse, can a puny sinner cause God to lessen His opinion about what His Son Jesus did???
  2. A man is born to God by FAITH in Jesus. God accepts this faith and the man is born to God (Jn.1:12-13). When do his WORKS undo this birth by the ALL-mighty?
  3. A man receives eternal life by FAITH (Jn.3:14-16). At what point can eternal life END?
  4. A man is made "partaker of the divine nature" by FAITH (2nd Pet.1:4). At what point does this nature cease?
  5. A man is justified by the works of Christ while he is a sinner. At what stage does the man decide that the works of Christ are undone?
  6. A man is declared righteous with the righteousness of Christ BY GOD. At what stage does the man's works UNDO the righteousness of Christ?
  7. A man is sanctified by the works of Christ, not his own. At what point are his works the undoing of Christ's works
  8. A Christian is slothful in building the Church. His work is burned when tested. Yet he is saved but by fire (1st Cor.3:14-15)
  9. A Christian commits incest - a heinous sin. He must die . But his death is so that his spirit is saved at the judgment (1st Cor.5:5)
  10. A Christian is a son, and loved by his Father. The Father will then chastise, but not destroy completely
Every one of the above was wrought BY CHRIST and APPROVED by the Father. Who is the man, Christian or not, who can overturn the councils of God? Do we really think that a mere man, as evil as he might be, can overturn what God has established? What a low opinion some Christians have of God. God can give His eternal life and divine nature by a birth by the Holy Spirit - and yet a mere puny man can kill this life and undo divinity. Who is the man who thinks that he, or other men are more powerful with their evil than the attributes of the ALL-Mighty?

But you might say, God will not tolerate evil for ever. You are correct, but to combat it do you think that He will UNDO what His beloved Son did as so high a price? No! He will chastise and chastise. He will bring painful circumstances on the wayward Christian. He will cast him into a prison for 1,000 years. But He, being the ALL-Mighty, will achieve His goals. Who is the man who thinks he can be more stubborn than God Who needs no sleep. Nebuchadnezzar, the greatest and most fearsome king who ever lived and a Type of the coming Beast, and who is designated a head of GOLD by God, is putty in the hands of God. Seven years long must the greatest and most fearsome king live among the beasts of the field and eat grass. And what does he say when its over. He decrees the following:

34 "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"


I propose that Romans 8:31-39 is correct to the uttermost. It is not a matter of what man can do. It is what God can do that is decisive. I do not down play God's hand of chastisement. It is GRIEVOUS (Heb.12:11). The wayward Christian will be broken and even crushed to powder (Matt.21:24), but God has not predestined a man to partake of all the heavenly things and then cast him aside. No. God is greater than that by far. The Chritsian who thinks that he/she can do what they like is in for a rude and painful shock. But God will not undo what His Son paid so dearly for. God is true to Himself. His life is ETERNAL. Who can end it? His nature is DIVINE. Can somebody - creature, undo it?
After all is said and done, and all your arguments are given, the text - John 3:36 - still says exactly what it says:

- the one who is believing in Christ has everlasting life - Wonderful! PTL! What blessings and promises from our Saviour!

- but the one who is not believing, heeding, obeying will not see life, and the wrath of God abides on him.

This text does not say that one person cannot go from believing to not believing -- nor does it say it is impossible for a person to go from not believing to believing.

So if someone is not believing, heeding, obeying they are not saved no matter what doctrine a person may use to try to say they are saved.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
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#10
Unbelief is often linked with disobedience. Another example of this is Hebrews 3:18-19 where it first calls the group that would not enter His rest disobedient and then follows up by saying it was due to unbelief.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#11
After all is said and done, and all your arguments are given, the text - John 3:36 - still says exactly what it says:

- the one who is believing in Christ has everlasting life - Wonderful! PTL! What blessings and promises from our Saviour!

- but the one who is not believing, heeding, obeying will not see life, and the wrath of God abides on him.

This text does not say that one person cannot go from believing to not believing -- nor does it say it is impossible for a person to go from not believing to believing.

So if someone is not believing, heeding, obeying they are not saved no matter what doctrine a person may use to try to say they are saved.
In the new birth we are quickened together with Christ Eph 2:5. If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 13. After we have been born again, there is a deliverance that we receive here on earth, in believing the gospel. This deliverance has nothing to do with eternal deliverance.

When we are first born again to a new spiritual life, we are babes in Christ living on the milk of the word, until we have been taught the meat of the word. It is a process of growing into maturity, same as newborn that gradually grows into maturity, by hearing and learning.

This is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep (babes in Christ) of the house of Israel, which is the house of Jacob, as Jacob's name had been changed (Gen 33:28) to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel. Rom 9:6, For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,371
421
83
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#12
After all is said and done, and all your arguments are given, the text - John 3:36 - still says exactly what it says:

- the one who is believing in Christ has everlasting life - Wonderful! PTL! What blessings and promises from our Saviour!

- but the one who is not believing, heeding, obeying will not see life, and the wrath of God abides on him.

This text does not say that one person cannot go from believing to not believing -- nor does it say it is impossible for a person to go from not believing to believing.

So if someone is not believing, heeding, obeying they are not saved no matter what doctrine a person may use to try to say they are saved.
Hi, and thanks for the response. I can't fault you for any one statement. The OP did not produce a case for anything, so it was difficult to respond to him. I answered more on the title. Anyway, it was nice of you to let every one of my statements to stand without comment. We'll just have to wait and see if the original poster responds. OSAS/NOSAS seems to bother many - the thought that FAITH in the completed works of Christ can give all those wonderful things, and then some works of the believer can undo Christ's work. Or that Eternal Life is not "eternal". Or that God must have made a mistake when He said, "an eternal salvation" in Hebrews 5:9. After all, a few works of a wayward Christian can annul it. Amazing.

Go well bro.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#13
Ok, so how does this relate to OSAS?
Sorry only getting back to this now. You asked how this relates to OSAS. Well the OSAS believer (by and large) does not believe that anything can be done after first conversion and belief in the gospel, to lose salvation. They will say that if a person continues in sin that they will not lose their salvation, but instead will lose some rewards. Or they say a believer will not continue to want to sin, but that its not possible to stop/cease their sinning. Or they will say that repentance is not necessary after conversion, becaue they repented ALREADY at the beginning when they first believed. Or they will say repentance means a change in mind from unbelief (not believing in Jesus) to belief (believing in Jesus) but no requirement to follow in his ways or obey his commandments, because these are terms works. And any variation of the above. And there are a few variations.

So when we go the the OP scripture and see that two different Greek words were used, one meaning belief, and the other meaning obedience then we see the scripture harmonising. So that when an OSAS believer says he has to simply BELIEVE (but does not expand this to being inclusive of obedience), then he/she is in serious error. The OSASSER is in fact the legalist. They will take one scripture, saying BELIEVE is all that is necessary, but IGNORE every other scripture which talks of obedience. Their legalism will not stand up to scrutiny when the Lord judges based on His revealed Word.

And an example of this revealed word is as follows:

Romans 6v1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

To which a continually disobedient and unrepentant OSAS believer will retort back "But I believe".
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,358
113
#14
Why do some people strive to get other people to accept their Salvation is not eternal after all?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,134
4,524
113
#15
A person is never "saved" if that person claims faith yet has not fruits of the Holy Spirit to show for it. Faith without works is no faith at all. In other words this type of person is a false believer.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#16
Why do some people strive to get other people to accept their Salvation is not eternal after all?
Soggykitten, its not at all about getting someone to believe that their salvation is not eternal. It is that those who claim to have eternal salvation ALREADY but are continuing to live in their sins without repentance do not have it at all. Salation happens at the end. Justification happens at the beginning. Its the sancification that the unbeliever kicks against. Because he/she loves their sins. They havent counted the cost of following Christ, which is to forsake their sins. Whoever loves the world makes himself an enemy of God.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#17
You still have to complete your argument - if it pertains to the title of the thread.

Consider this. Romans 1:20 says that nature (or the creature) shows the things of God. A boy is born to his mother. They are a well-to-do family and know for their intelligence, resourcefulness, diligence and morals. The boy grows. He is a rebel. He refuses to subordinate himself, he steals, kills the pets, destroys the servants goods and insults his tutors. He finally lands in jail for 20 years. At what point is he UNBORN from his parents? At what point does he stop being a man and starts being a chimpanzee? WHAT!!!, you might say. Who said anything about being unborn and taking another nature?

You have misunderstood who are the sons of God and who aren't. Once the scriptures are shown to you, the whole argument above falls apart, as well as most of what is written below: Let's explore together:

John 8v31-36
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.


What can we learn from the above? We have the same people today as we see Jesus addressing in his day. People claiming to be sons of God (sons of Abraham infers sons of God and of God's promises). We have this today too. Ask anyone on this site if they are a son of God and they will reply in the affirmative. Yet Jesus makes a DISTINCTION. Only those who actually obey Him ARE Sons of God. If you do not obey Him, you are not considered a SON but rather a SLAVE. Jesus goes one step further in verse 36, implying that HE has the power to set you free from both the PENALTY as well as the POWER of sin. You no longer have to continu in these sins. If this is confusing, read verse 34 and 35 again.

When we come to Christ, he gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit. Look what it says here:
Romans 8v12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


The Christian is to put to death the misdeeds of the body, by the power of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Grace) dwelling in them. Those who are LED by the Spirit are the SONS of God. See how this marries perfectly with John 8 above?
You cannot claim to be a SON of God yet continue in willful disobedienec and rebellion to God. A true son will always come to repentance (REQUIREMENT), as we see in the story of the Prodigal son. If someone does not repent, they are not sons.


The prodigal son underwent CHASTISEMENT in the pigsty. And this BROUGHT HIM TO REPENTANCE. However those who are without repentance, those who do not yield to chastisement, are NOT SONS OF GOD, but are illegitimate children. See below:

Hebrews 12v7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no [e]chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

See above? If you think you can confess Christ, that you believe in Him, yet continue unrepentant, resist and reject chastisement to bring you back to Him, then you are NOT sons, despite all claims to being so. God calls you illegitimate.


The answer is; Half the Christian community!
  1. A man's sins are put away by a work of Christ - God has accepted this and put away sins. Can some puny sinner undo that work, or even worse, can a puny sinner cause God to lessen His opinion about what His Son Jesus did???
  2. A man is born to God by FAITH in Jesus. God accepts this faith and the man is born to God (Jn.1:12-13). When do his WORKS undo this birth by the ALL-mighty?
  3. A man receives eternal life by FAITH (Jn.3:14-16). At what point can eternal life END?
  4. A man is made "partaker of the divine nature" by FAITH (2nd Pet.1:4). At what point does this nature cease?
  5. A man is justified by the works of Christ while he is a sinner. At what stage does the man decide that the works of Christ are undone?
  6. A man is declared righteous with the righteousness of Christ BY GOD. At what stage does the man's works UNDO the righteousness of Christ?
  7. A man is sanctified by the works of Christ, not his own. At what point are his works the undoing of Christ's works
  8. A Christian is slothful in building the Church. His work is burned when tested. Yet he is saved but by fire (1st Cor.3:14-15)
  9. A Christian commits incest - a heinous sin. He must die . But his death is so that his spirit is saved at the judgment (1st Cor.5:5)
  10. A Christian is a son, and loved by his Father. The Father will then chastise, but not destroy completely
Every one of the above was wrought BY CHRIST and APPROVED by the Father. Who is the man, Christian or not, who can overturn the councils of God? Do we really think that a mere man, as evil as he might be, can overturn what God has established? What a low opinion some Christians have of God. God can give His eternal life and divine nature by a birth by the Holy Spirit - and yet a mere puny man can kill this life and undo divinity. Who is the man who thinks that he, or other men are more powerful with their evil than the attributes of the ALL-Mighty?

But you might say, God will not tolerate evil for ever. You are correct, but to combat it do you think that He will UNDO what His beloved Son did as so high a price? No! He will chastise and chastise. He will bring painful circumstances on the wayward Christian. He will cast him into a prison for 1,000 years. But He, being the ALL-Mighty, will achieve His goals. Who is the man who thinks he can be more stubborn than God Who needs no sleep. Nebuchadnezzar, the greatest and most fearsome king who ever lived and a Type of the coming Beast, and who is designated a head of GOLD by God, is putty in the hands of God. Seven years long must the greatest and most fearsome king live among the beasts of the field and eat grass. And what does he say when its over. He decrees the following:

34 "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"


I propose that Romans 8:31-39 is correct to the uttermost. It is not a matter of what man can do. It is what God can do that is decisive. I do not down play God's hand of chastisement. It is GRIEVOUS (Heb.12:11). The wayward Christian will be broken and even crushed to powder (Matt.21:24), but God has not predestined a man to partake of all the heavenly things and then cast him aside. No. God is greater than that by far. The Chritsian who thinks that he/she can do what they like is in for a rude and painful shock. But God will not undo what His Son paid so dearly for. God is true to Himself. His life is ETERNAL. Who can end it? His nature is DIVINE. Can somebody - creature, undo it?
Sorry for the delay, was away for a while. My responses to your message above. Will insert in blue font.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,726
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#18
Why do some people strive to get other people to accept their Salvation is not eternal after all?
Because they do not want them to be in hell forever and ever!

I thought it was eternal life (not eternal salvation). ???
Eternal life is a gift God gives to all who are believing in Him. It is never taken from the person who believes. But the unbeliever does not have eternal life!
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,134
4,524
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#19
I have postedd many times some of the "works of God" given us, but not yet this time.

Works of God are not just the flashy miraculous works. The hum be worker is one who prays, extends mercy to all, shares the Word, , is kind to all even when not reciprocated, and all who wait on the Lord..........all of this and much more are works given us by our Father. Oh yes, some are given to be used for healing, miracles and more, but those humble workers who do things in worship all of the time are far more glorious in their works glorifying our Maker. But do try to obtain the flashy ones too for the sake of supporting the witnessing.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#20
Has nobody noticed that the Greek words are different because the first Greek word is for believeth and the other Greek word is for believeth NOT?