Interpreting I John 2:18,19

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Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#1
What is the interpretation of these verses? What is John saying about this group of "antichrists"?

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us

I John 2:18,19 (NASV)

[SUB][/SUB]
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
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#2
John is writing about a group of gnostic teachers of his day. In verse 19 he seems to be saying this group has left the church. Their leaving the church is given as showing that thus they were not really "of us" (Greek - "out of"). It seems reasonable to conclude that vs. 19 means that when these false teachers (antichrists) left the church they were not believers (Christians). It may also be saying that they were never Christians at all, though a careful reading of the text does not demand this conclusion. What we know for sure is that these antichrists left the church and their leaving (John says) proves that they were not Christians when they left.

Whatever conclusion one comes to in the preceding paragraph, it is important to see here that John is not speaking about church members in general, but he is writing about a very specific group of people - the antichrists of vs. 18. What John says about these gnostic teachers may or may not apply to the church in general: nowhere in these verses does John make a general statement saying that anyone who leaves a church was never born again. John was writing about specific circumstances, not stating a universal principle.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
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#3
John is writing about a group of gnostic teachers of his day. In verse 19 he seems to be saying this group has left the church. Their leaving the church is given as showing that thus they were not really "of us" (Greek - "out of"). It seems reasonable to conclude that vs. 19 means that when these false teachers (antichrists) left the church they were not believers (Christians). It may also be saying that they were never Christians at all, though a careful reading of the text does not demand this conclusion. What we know for sure is that these antichrists left the church and their leaving (John says) proves that they were not Christians when they left.

Whatever conclusion one comes to in the preceding paragraph, it is important to see here that John is not speaking about church members in general, but he is writing about a very specific group of people - the antichrists of vs. 18. What John says about these gnostic teachers may or may not apply to the church in general: nowhere in these verses does John make a general statement saying that anyone who leaves a church was never born again. John was writing about specific circumstances, not stating a universal principle.
It seems to me that much of the Word uses specific circumstance to state a universal truth. That said let's have a look, I like the amp for studying.

1 John 2:15-24
15 Do not love the world [of sin that opposes God and His precepts], nor the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust and sensual craving of the flesh and the lust and longing of the eyes and the boastful pride of life [pretentious confidence in one’s resources or in the stability of earthly things]—these do not come from the Father, but are from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and with it its lusts [the shameful pursuits and ungodly longings]; but the one who does the will of God and carries out His purposes lives forever.
18 Children, it is the last hour [the end of this age]; and just as you heard that the antichrist is coming [the one who will oppose Christ and attempt to replace Him], even now many antichrists (false teachers) have appeared, which confirms our belief that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us [seeming at first to be Christians], but they were not really of us [because they were not truly born again and spiritually transformed]; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out [teaching false doctrine], so that it would be clearly shown that none of them are of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One [you have been set apart, specially gifted and prepared by the Holy Spirit], and all of you know [the truth because He teaches us, illuminates our minds, and guards us from error]. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie [nothing false, no deception] is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed)? This is the antichrist [the enemy and antagonist of Christ], the one who denies and consistently refuses to acknowledge the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies and repudiates the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses and acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that remain in you [keeping in your hearts that message of salvation] which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you too will remain in the Son and in the Father [forever].
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
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#4
A lot there...I always thought the end of the age was referring to the end of jewish law and the beginning of grace. I also think the reference could be talking about how God is about to start spreading His kingdom via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When John wrote that there were maybe what, twenty thousand believers? Again, the Word seems to always show me a deeper insight each time I read it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
113
#5
Whatever conclusion one comes to in the preceding paragraph, it is important to see here that John is not speaking about church members in general, but he is writing about a very specific group of people - the antichrists of vs. 18. What John says about these gnostic teachers may or may not apply to the church in general: nowhere in these verses does John make a general statement saying that anyone who leaves a church was never born again. John was writing about specific circumstances, not stating a universal principle.
True. The point though is not that they left the church, but that they left because they could not abide the truth concerning the doctrine of Christ. There were several heresies regarding Christ in the early churches, and particularly among the Gnostics. Here is what John focuses on:

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist... Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:7,9).

This would means that they either blatantly denied that Jesus is God (such as the Jehovah's Witnesses), or they denied His full humanity as well as His full deity (Docetism). We should keep in mind that Modernism or Theological Liberalism also denied many fundamental Christian doctrines (including the Deity of Christ). So they too have been antichrists. However, instead of them leaving the mainline denominations, they compelled conservative Christians to leave, and hijacked the churches. All of this is historically recorded.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,479
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#6
1 John 2:18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

There are those who use these verses to defend OSAS by saying anyone who "falls away" from the faith were "never really saved."

Problem with that is that other Scriptures and even the words of Christ show that actual Believers will "fall away," and NOT these people John is speaking of.


Matthew 23:11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


2 Thessalonians 2:1)
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(just saying........)

 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#7
1 John 2:18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

There are those who use these verses to defend OSAS by saying anyone who "falls away" from the faith were "never really saved."

Problem with that is that other Scriptures and even the words of Christ show that actual Believers will "fall away," and NOT these people John is speaking of.


Matthew 23:11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


2 Thessalonians 2:1)
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(just saying........)

Well you are citing Mat 24 not Mat 23. The correct understanding of this passage is that those who survive the tribulation will see Messiah come in the clouds and will receive Him and be saved. It has nothing to do with believers holding on to their salvation.

Tares and wheat will never mix but always separate out in the end.

2 Thess 2:1 is not teaching that believers will fall away from Christ. It is speaking about the man of sin, the son of perdition being revealed. This will not happen until the church is gone so those who are deceived are of Israel in the tribulation period.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#8
1 John 2: 18 [FONT=&quot]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In these two verses, we meet three different people.

1. The Antichrist
2. Many antichrists
3. Us.

Who the antichrist is really is not the question, in order to properly interpret the verse. We have to determine who is us, and who are the many antichrists.

Us - I think all of us would agree, thst is the church, in fact., John tells us specifically who they are so there is no question.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[d] 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

From this we can determine (not just guess) who these people are

1. They have the annointing from the holy one (god) (ie, they are people who have been saved in the past. And were anointed by Gods spirit.
2. They know the truth
3. They do not believe the lie (that Jesus is not the christ)

Many Antichrists - Who are these people? We could guess (they are gnostics) or we could just let John tell us who they are (even if the group of people John was speaking of were gnostic. If it was JUST them he would have told us, But john did not do this, he gave us specific qualifications of people he deemed as an antichrist)
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

So who are the antichrists?

1. They are liars (as apposed to those who were anointed by God and have the truth)
2. They deny Jesus is the Christ
3. They deny the Father and the Son.

so, according to the op. Were they gnostics? Do they fit the qualifications John gave as antichrist? Yes.

However, is it just limited to gnostics? Of course not. John made it clear in the way he wrote, that anyone (ANYONE was the word he used. So this is John speaking, Not EG) who denys Jesus, or the father, is an antichrist.

Conclusion.

John made it clear. Many where part of a church in his day just like many used to be part of churches in our day, who have left the church, and now are deniers of Christ (they no longer believe) Here is what we know about them

1. They qwere never part of the church (they were NEVER SAVED)
2. They left to expose who they really were (in johns words, to make manifest they were never really of us)


[/FONT]
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
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#9
True. The point though is not that they left the church, but that they left because they could not abide the truth concerning the doctrine of Christ. There were several heresies regarding Christ in the early churches, and particularly among the Gnostics. Here is what John focuses on:

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist... Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:7,9).

This would means that they either blatantly denied that Jesus is God (such as the Jehovah's Witnesses), or they denied His full humanity as well as His full deity (Docetism). We should keep in mind that Modernism or Theological Liberalism also denied many fundamental Christian doctrines (including the Deity of Christ). So they too have been antichrists. However, instead of them leaving the mainline denominations, they compelled conservative Christians to leave, and hijacked the churches. All of this is historically recorded.

I find your last paragraph quite interesting. So today in some churches the "antichrists" have stayed in the churches and forced the true believers out. In John's day what he was writing about was a situation where the "antichrists" left, thus exposing that they were not true believers.

So it would seem today that just because someone leaves a church, that alone is not evidence that they are not a believer.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
#10
It seems to me that much of the Word uses specific circumstance to state a universal truth. That said let's have a look, I like the amp for studying.

1 John 2:15-24
15 Do not love the world [of sin that opposes God and His precepts], nor the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust and sensual craving of the flesh and the lust and longing of the eyes and the boastful pride of life [pretentious confidence in one’s resources or in the stability of earthly things]—these do not come from the Father, but are from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and with it its lusts [the shameful pursuits and ungodly longings]; but the one who does the will of God and carries out His purposes lives forever.
18 Children, it is the last hour [the end of this age]; and just as you heard that the antichrist is coming [the one who will oppose Christ and attempt to replace Him], even now many antichrists (false teachers) have appeared, which confirms our belief that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us [seeming at first to be Christians], but they were not really of us [because they were not truly born again and spiritually transformed]; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out [teaching false doctrine], so that it would be clearly shown that none of them are of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One [you have been set apart, specially gifted and prepared by the Holy Spirit], and all of you know [the truth because He teaches us, illuminates our minds, and guards us from error]. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie [nothing false, no deception] is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed)? This is the antichrist [the enemy and antagonist of Christ], the one who denies and consistently refuses to acknowledge the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies and repudiates the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses and acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that remain in you [keeping in your hearts that message of salvation] which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you too will remain in the Son and in the Father [forever].
So what do you think John was saying in verses 18,19?
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
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#11
John is writing about a group of gnostic teachers of his day. In verse 19 he seems to be saying this group has left the church. Their leaving the church is given as showing that thus they were not really "of us" (Greek - "out of"). It seems reasonable to conclude that vs. 19 means that when these false teachers (antichrists) left the church they were not believers (Christians). It may also be saying that they were never Christians at all, though a careful reading of the text does not demand this conclusion. What we know for sure is that these antichrists left the church and their leaving (John says) proves that they were not Christians when they left.

Whatever conclusion one comes to in the preceding paragraph, it is important to see here that John is not speaking about church members in general, but he is writing about a very specific group of people - the antichrists of vs. 18. What John says about these gnostic teachers may or may not apply to the church in general: nowhere in these verses does John make a general statement saying that anyone who leaves a church was never born again. John was writing about specific circumstances, not stating a universal principle.
Gnosticism didn't exist until late or after the second century, so they couldn't be Gnostic. They were the forerunners of Gnostic thought. John is saying that fellowship with God is manifested by loyalty to the truth. These false teachers were part of the congregation of the readers but left to teach false doctrines about salvation.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#12
Gnosticism didn't exist until late or after the second century, so they couldn't be Gnostic. They were the forerunners of Gnostic thought. John is saying that fellowship with God is manifested by loyalty to the truth. These false teachers were part of the congregation of the readers but left to teach false doctrines about salvation.
I suggest that you recheck your sources. The earliest Gnostic writings are from mid 2nd century Alexandria. However, Both Paul and John confront Gnostic heresy in their epistles. Earliest writings DO NOT define earliest appearance. Earliest appearance is best defined by first confrontation.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
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#13
I suggest that you recheck your sources. The earliest Gnostic writings are from mid 2nd century Alexandria. However, Both Paul and John confront Gnostic heresy in their epistles. Earliest writings DO NOT define earliest appearance. Earliest appearance is best defined by first confrontation.
Full blown Gnosticism didn't exist in the first century.
 
Dec 4, 2017
906
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#14
I find your last paragraph quite interesting. So today in some churches the "antichrists" have stayed in the churches and forced the true believers out. In John's day what he was writing about was a situation where the "antichrists" left, thus exposing that they were not true believers.

So it would seem today that just because someone leaves a church, that alone is not evidence that they are not a believer.
Each congregation is a part of the whole that is the Body of the Holy One.
If someone were to leave one body and family.
Then the question arises. What happened?

Now there may be circumstances of that may have caused them to leave.
Each circumstance should be approached in a Loving manner.
Especially with the new believers the Spirit of gentleness is needed greatly to help them grow.
As for so called ministries creeping in to the many congregations with false pretenses to offend and cause a stumbling with false teaching.

The responsibility resides in the leaders to vett out these false teachers with the Lord's guidence.
Counseling the people who have been greatly injured need more than mere words of encouragement.
They need to be assured that there is compassion and a genuine consideration for each idividuals needs.

Blessings Always
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#16
I find your last paragraph quite interesting. So today in some churches the "antichrists" have stayed in the churches and forced the true believers out. In John's day what he was writing about was a situation where the "antichrists" left, thus exposing that they were not true believers.

So it would seem today that just because someone leaves a church, that alone is not evidence that they are not a believer.
Satan is very much in the religion business. We just know that as soon as the real Christian Church started, he would come up with a counterfeit church. He just had to do it, how else would he retain control of this present world. Antichrist, the son of perdition and the false prophet are all active agents in the spirit world subverting all the real truths of God's word. :cool:
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
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#17
Yeah, I typed 23 instead of 24.......goodness.......hang me from the tallest tree.....however, your interpretation is YOUR interpretation, and that does not make it Gospel Truth, just your interpretation.

Same with Thessalonians.....your interpretation....and, you are entitled to understand it as you understand it, but that DOES NOT make it Biblical Truth.

Nor does mine........however, I will hold to my understanding as I receive it from the Holy Spirit, and you can hold to yours.

:)


Well you are citing Mat 24 not Mat 23. The correct understanding of this passage is that those who survive the tribulation will see Messiah come in the clouds and will receive Him and be saved. It has nothing to do with believers holding on to their salvation.

Tares and wheat will never mix but always separate out in the end.

2 Thess 2:1 is not teaching that believers will fall away from Christ. It is speaking about the man of sin, the son of perdition being revealed. This will not happen until the church is gone so those who are deceived are of Israel in the tribulation period.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#18
Yeah, I typed 23 instead of 24.......goodness.......hang me from the tallest tree.....however, your interpretation is YOUR interpretation, and that does not make it Gospel Truth, just your interpretation.

Same with Thessalonians.....your interpretation....and, you are entitled to understand it as you understand it, but that DOES NOT make it Biblical Truth.

Nor does mine........however, I will hold to my understanding as I receive it from the Holy Spirit, and you can hold to yours.

:)
We all make typos. You could have simply acknowledged such but you went all dramatic. Whatever.

You can deflect sound doctrine with the old that's your interpretation dodge but it does not introduce any credibility to your faulty doctrine.

Blaming the Holy Spirit for the hardness of your heart is not going to prove beneficial.

Seek knowledge get understanding and attain to wisdom.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 7, 2017
1,605
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#19
What is the interpretation of these verses? What is John saying about this group of "antichrists"?
Everyone that wants to follow to Christ aiming things of this world is a antichrist:


  • "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." (Matthew 16.23).
  • "They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." (1John 4.5,6).
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
#20
I suggest that you recheck your sources. The earliest Gnostic writings are from mid 2nd century Alexandria. However, Both Paul and John confront Gnostic heresy in their epistles. Earliest writings DO NOT define earliest appearance. Earliest appearance is best defined by first confrontation.

A careful reading of I John clearly indicates he was dealing with a gnostic way of thinking. Whether or not full-blown Gnosticism existed yet is not really the point. Maybe I should have said John was dealing with a group of "gnostic-leaning" teachers.
 
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