Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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Anacortes, WA
You're making the same mistake Catholics make: calling into question that which God has made plain. Solomon is as clear about what happens when we die as is the nose on your face.
God has made it plain that Solomon was searching things out:

“And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven” (Ecc 1:13)

“I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly,
until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives.” (Ecc 2:3)

“I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things,
and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:” (Ecc7:25)
This is how Solomon describes his purpose for writing this book.

"without regard for eternal consequences"??? Is that why he concludes his book by saying we must fear and obey God and prepare for the eternal consequences of the Judgment?
By the end of the book, Solomon discovered that to live for things "under the sun" alone is vanity. Therefore he concluded that God ought to be feared. Solomon explored many things...some true and some untrue. His wisdom guided him through his journey of exploration, reminding him of reality outside the paradigm he was exploring (Ecc 2:3, 2:9, 3:17), which he found to be meaningless...because it is a false paradigm.
Why do you characterize as "rejectable" that which Solomon himself says he sought out as "acceptable words" in his book?
As a KJV onlyist, you would probably be unwilling to discuss that. But to keep the peace, I will say this: the Hebrew says Solomon "sought" certain things. It does not say he found them.

Why lump that in with self evident truths such as there's nothing in Sheol, life apart from God is meaningless, animals and humans live by the same "Breath of Life" power of God, there's nothing new under the sun, and the meek shall inherit the Earth?
I didn't lump all of these together. However, the things I did list share a common denominator: they are the logical outworking of someone who doesn't consider the afterlife. For example, "the earth abides forever". It's simply untrue. God will destroy the earth and make a new one, untainted by sin (2 Pet 3:10, 13, Rev 21:27).
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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They don't have cable, radios, or telephones. Why would they be aware of current events?
Why do you believe that believers in heaven would be burdened by all the evil that is going on down here? In heaven, they are at peace. I take that quite literally.
How can you sit there and reason that although every single one of God's creatures in His entire universe has been watching with keen interest the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan which first erupted in heaven and is now being fought down here and is about to reach it's long awaited climax with the eradication of sin and sinners.....IS SOMEHOW OF NO CONCERN TO THE "DEAD RIGHTEOUS IN HEAVEN" WHO ARE SUPPOSED BY YOU TO BE PREOCCUPIED WITH, I DON'T KNOW, PLAYING BINGO OR SITTING ON A CLOUD PLAYING A HARP?

Face it, if the dead righteous have died and gone straight to heaven, they are most certainly sitting alongside the angels watching with intense vigor the events happening down here now. Therefore, "the dead know not anything" doesn't mean they are ignorant up there of what's going on down here....it means they are non-existent at the moment awaiting the resurrection to eternal life, just as the dead wicked are non-existent at the moment awaiting the resurrection and sentence of the second death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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How can you sit there and reason that although every single one of God's creatures in His entire universe has been watching with keen interest the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan which first erupted in heaven and is now being fought down here and is about to reach it's long awaited climax with the eradication of sin and sinners.....IS SOMEHOW OF NO CONCERN TO THE "DEAD RIGHTEOUS IN HEAVEN" WHO ARE SUPPOSED BY YOU TO BE PREOCCUPIED WITH, I DON'T KNOW, PLAYING BINGO OR SITTING ON A CLOUD PLAYING A HARP?

Face it, if the dead righteous have died and gone straight to heaven, they are most certainly sitting alongside the angels watching with intense vigor the events happening down here now. Therefore, "the dead know not anything" doesn't mean they are ignorant up there of what's going on down here....it means they are non-existent at the moment awaiting the resurrection to eternal life, just as the dead wicked are non-existent at the moment awaiting the resurrection and sentence of the second death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.
“they are most certainly sitting alongside the angels watching”

This is exactly how the religious Jews turned 10 commandments into 613, making assumptions.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
Ahemmm... Why did Jesus say "let the dead bury their own dead"?

I can't believe this thread is still active :rolleyes:
 

JeffA

Minstrel
Mar 31, 2022
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I'll have to side with @Phoneman-777 on this one.
The dead, all of them, are neither in Heaven nor do they walk the earth.
They are "asleep" and awaiting His return and judgement.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
They don't have cable, radios, or telephones. Why would they be aware of current events?
Why do you believe that believers in heaven would be burdened by all the evil that is going on down here? In heaven, they are at peace. I take that quite literally.
How can you sit there and reason that although every single one of God's creatures in His entire universe has been watching with keen interest the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan which first erupted in heaven and is now being fought down here and is about to reach it's long awaited climax with the eradication of sin and sinners
How can you even come up with this stuff from what I posted?? My point was simple and clear. Souls in heaven aren't ON earth to view current events. That's all. I never said anything about "keep interest". Remember where this discussion began; a verse that the "dead know not anything". Simple statement. Simple answer.

Why would anyone assume that souls in heaven or Hades WOULD know what's going on today?
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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I'll have to side with @Phoneman-777 on this one.
The dead, all of them, are neither in Heaven nor do they walk the earth.
They are "asleep" and awaiting His return and judgement.
No such thing as soul sleep. The use of "sleep" is a euphemism for the body being physically dead. Nothing more.

Paul clarified all this in 2 Cor 5-
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
7 For we live by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Paul gave 2 scenarios: either physically alive and "away from the Lord", OR physically dead and "at home with the Lord".
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
No such thing as soul sleep. The use of "sleep" is a euphemism for the body being physically dead. Nothing more.
Not so sure about that... If you haven't been "reborn" when you die, then what would be the point of resurrecting you just to send you back to Hell?
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
2 resurrections, 2 judgments...
First resurrection; The pre-trib rapture.
First judgment; Those not saved during the tribulation.
Second resurrection; Those who died during the 1000yr reign and final war, and all else.
Second judgment; The judgment that every soul who ever lived must face.

Since there hasn't yet been a judgment, Hell is empty.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
No such thing as soul sleep. The use of "sleep" is a euphemism for the body being physically dead. Nothing more.
Not so sure about that... If you haven't been "reborn" when you die, then what would be the point of resurrecting you just to send you back to Hell?
Sorry I missed this. It seems on this forum, if a poster doesn't post for a while, they no longer get alerts about new posts.

I am very sure about that. Jesus' account of a rich man and a poor man named Lazarus (which is NOT a parable) shows that in Hades, where all the dead souls went after death, are very conscious and capable of feelings, such as being tormented and hot.

Your question is a good one. The point of resurrecting unbelievers is so they can attend the GWT judgment and then be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 21:11-15. Revelation calls the lake of fire the "second death" two times.

I used to think it was just noting that unbelievers are spiritually dead, but people are ALWAYS spiritually dead, until faith in Christ when they become spiritually alive. Eph 2:5.

Then I realized that unbelievers will be in a resurrection of their own:
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

iow, one for each. However, the unsaved only get their old physical body back, only to die AGAIN when cast into the lake of fire.

So, unbelievers are born once, but die twice.
Believers, otoh, are born twice, and only die once. Heb 9:27
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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2 resurrections, 2 judgments...
Correct. One for all believers, and one for all unbelievers. Acts 24:15

First resurrection; The pre-trib rapture.
Not correct. The singular resurrection of all believers will be at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

When the NT mentioned "when He comes" or "the coming of Christ", it is always related to the prophecy in the OT. There, we find prophecies about TWO comings or advents of the Messiah. The first one was His birth and ministry as the suffering servant. The second one will be the Second Advent when Christ returns to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

So 1 Cor 15:23 specifically identifies the singular resurrection of all believers (those who belong to Him) at the end of the Tribulation.

First judgment; Those not saved during the tribulation.
Not really a judgment. It is God's wrath poured on the earth.

Second resurrection; Those who died during the 1000yr reign and final war, and all else.
No, the second resurrection follows the first resurrection of all the saved by 1,000 years. Rev 20:5

Second judgment; The judgment that every soul who ever lived must face.
All believers will be evaluated or judged, according to what they have done, whether good or bad, at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Pretribbers think this will occur in heaven, during the tribulation. Howver, since there will be no resurrection until "He comes" back, the Bema will occur at the beginning of His earthly Millennial reign. 2 Cor 5:10

All unbelievers will be judged 1,000 years later at the GWT judgment, and then be cast into the lake of fire.

Since there hasn't yet been a judgment, Hell is empty.
No, Hades still holds all the souls of unbelievers. At the GWT judgment, death and hell (Hades) will be cast into the lake of fire.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
When saved, we are reborn in Spirit and joined with Christ, so the dead in Christ are with Christ in Spirit. Resurrection is also transfiguration.

If not saved, you are dead already. The dead sleep until judgment.

2 resurrections, 2 judgments...
First resurrection; The pre-trib rapture. The "reborn" do not suffer with the dead.
First judgment; Those not saved during the tribulation DIE physically and sleep.
Second resurrection; Those who died during the 1000yr reign, the final war, and all else.
Second judgment; The judgment that every soul who ever lived must face.

Since there hasn't yet been a judgment, Hell is empty.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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When saved, we are reborn in Spirit and joined with Christ, so the dead in Christ are with Christ in Spirit. Resurrection is also transfiguration.

If not saved, you are dead already. The dead sleep until judgment.
Jesus said otherwise. He told of a rich man and a poor man called Lazarus who both died and went to Hades, the place of all dead. Lazarus was in Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom, and the rich man was in torments. Both were obviously conscious, and the rich man had a conversation with Abraham. He wanted Abe to send Lazarus over to "cool his tongue" with a drop of water, proving that both were conscious.

Since there hasn't yet been a judgment, Hell is empty.
Again, no. It is full of dead unbelievers, awaiting their resurrection for the GWT and then being cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
Jesus said otherwise. He told of a rich man and a poor man called Lazarus who both died and went to Hades, the place of all dead. Lazarus was in Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom, and the rich man was in torments. Both were obviously conscious, and the rich man had a conversation with Abraham. He wanted Abe to send Lazarus over to "cool his tongue" with a drop of water, proving that both were conscious.


Again, no. It is full of dead unbelievers, awaiting their resurrection for the GWT and then being cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20.
Luke 16;
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.f The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

This is a parable describing the difference between the self serving wicked, and the suffering righteous. It describes the permanence of God's judgment because the wicked will not accept the truth of Christ's resurrection. Hell is the outer darkness and complete separation from God that those who deny God and Christ deserve. Hell is the antithesis of life and all that is holy. Hell is detestable to God and cannot even be seen. Hell is death. There is no one speaking from hell. There is only Satan and his fallen who currently govern this Earth, and they are all liars. Even they have not yet seen Hell. If you honestly believe it's possible to converse with the abominations in Hell, then I truly fear for you...
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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Luke 16;
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.f The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Real clear here: dead people talking to each other.

This is a parable describing the difference between the self serving wicked, and the suffering righteous.
What a fantasy. It's about real people. Or do you consider Abraham to be a myth?

It describes the permanence of God's judgment because the wicked will not accept the truth of Christ's resurrection.
Nope. Jesus was showing us the afterlife in the OT times. After Jesus' resurrection, He went to Hades and took all the believers out of Paradise and took them to heaven.

If you honestly believe it's possible to converse with the abominations in Hell, then I truly fear for you...
Then include Jesus in your fear, because He told us about the after life, and He certainly believes that souls of both the saved and unsaved are CONSCIOUS in the afterlife.

btw, if all that Jesus recounted in Luke 16 was simply a parable, why would He make up something that can't be true?

Aren't you aware that His parables were about real things that people could relate to?

It would be kinda like Him also telling us about Martians, or vampires, or ghosts. Get real.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
Real clear here: dead people talking to each other.


What a fantasy. It's about real people. Or do you consider Abraham to be a myth?


Nope. Jesus was showing us the afterlife in the OT times. After Jesus' resurrection, He went to Hades and took all the believers out of Paradise and took them to heaven.


Then include Jesus in your fear, because He told us about the after life, and He certainly believes that souls of both the saved and unsaved are CONSCIOUS in the afterlife.

btw, if all that Jesus recounted in Luke 16 was simply a parable, why would He make up something that can't be true?

Aren't you aware that His parables were about real things that people could relate to?

It would be kinda like Him also telling us about Martians, or vampires, or ghosts. Get real.
So, in God's kingdom, we're going to be able to hear all the complaints from Hell?
YOU get real...
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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So, in God's kingdom, we're going to be able to hear all the complaints from Hell?
Why would anyone think that? I already explained to you that Jesus went to Hades after His crucifixion and took all the saved people from Paradise and took them to heaven. So, all dead believers aren't even close to hell.

Your conclusion doesn't make sense.

YOU get real...
Right.