Iron sharpens iron

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Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#41
Paul's referencing his arrival with a rod is not to be taken seriously. Paul would never beat anyone with a rod.
yes lol I’m sure he wouldn’t have . Paul’s talking about the manner in which he would come to them because of the subject he’s talking about there in Corinth

the church he had planted and cultivated the Corinthians church was his pride and joy in the kingdom his crown jewel. And what was going on was someone had openly fornicated with thier fathers wife and the others all were approving of it .


Paul was addressing thier sin and approval of sin . He told them this about the man

“For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the church was proud of what he had done Paul is telling them if they don’t repent and get right he would come with the same rod he decided against the man in reference who did this

“It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s warning was meant to be stern so they would repent as you say often in Paul’s writings as well as the gospel it’s about the message and not about a literal taking of a term like “ come with a rod “ he’s talking about coming in a stern nature and rebuking them for their sin of approving of what the man did among them

sin spreads when Christians approve of it , just like the camp of Israel and even the first generations in Noah’s day one man winning among the rest it woll
Spread like a wild fire or terrible cancer among believers

it is important also to show that this rebuke of that man hadn’t lasted forever

Paul wrote a second letter and addressed this matter which really shows the gospel

“But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice;

having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.

But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭2:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬

just as Paul had written to them for them to exclude the man he had written back again and instructed them to now forgive him who knows exactly how long but I’m imagining his first letter caused a lot of repentance in the church at Corinth and Paul had them forgiven them and the man who transgressed

the sorrow Paul’s letter caused them brought repentance

“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

but the sorrow of the world worketh death.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:9-

if we’re sorry for our sins we are sorry on a godly manner , and this sorrow leads to repentance Paul’s letter sighed heavily on them so much that they had become overwhelmingly sorry and Paul’s second letter shows the “ rod” being layed aside in this matter and he is overwhelming then with love in the second letter even the man who has drawn Paul’s anger before
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#43
...and, in the very same epistle, he told Timothy:

II Timothy chapter 4

[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Look, I'm honestly NOT trying to give anybody here "a license to kill", so to speak.

Instead, I'm merely saying, in light of my original post, that "iron", and not cotton balls or some soft fluffy message, sharpens iron.

Are you a piece of "iron", figuratively/spiritually speaking?

Well, if you are, then you should expect other pieces of "iron" to grate against you, for your own good, in your "sharpening" process.

That's simply not what we see most of time today.

Rather than allowing themselves to be "sharpened", most people get terribly bent out of shape at the slightest form of correction.

THIS is what I'm trying to actually address here.
yes I understand , do you think that verse you quoted should be considered in the same manner as the other ?

he said to rebuke also in the first but gently , patiently , looking to free them from thier captor .

what I’m saying is should a rebuke be in this manner

“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;

if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬ ‭


Often I think we look at others as if “they just don’t get it they just won’t repent like me “ but that’s not how we look at someone we actually love who does something wrong . We tend to be much more patient and gentle with those we love

I guess what I’m asking you is the word rebuke does that need to be wounding ? Or can one rebuke or correct another with gentleness ? Or should we seperate the two ?

again , I find a lot of good thinking in your words , I do think you should consider both side by side and maybe then rebuke might not part from the other instruction about the importance of being “ gentle to all men , patient with those who oppose our own ideas .

when we start figuring what’s best for each other and landing blows for their good , it doesn’t bring people together or draw them into the church , it creates conflict and they find the same thing they found in the world

I liked your post I just again felt like the rest should be left in the thread. I apologize if you feel I’m attacking you or something not at all what I intended , I think the reason I left the scripture about being gentle and patient was more to season what you were saying so as to like your saying there not let anyone misunderstand about how we should treat others in the church
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,311
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Tennessee
#44
I thought it was rock, paper, scissors.

I'm paper so hope your not scissors cause I sure don't want to get cut....lol

No wait forget that I'll be the hammer....It can't lose...lol
Yeah, slight typo with the hammer. :)
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,437
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#46
For real or are you being sarcastic?

I honestly don't know...lol.
No matey! I'm 100% serious, which is that the Corinthians were to take Paul's threat seriously, but not literally. I thought that was rather insightful. :)
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#47
yes I understand , do you think that verse you quoted should be considered in the same manner as the other ?

he said to rebuke also in the first but gently , patiently , looking to free them from thier captor .

what I’m saying is should a rebuke be in this manner

“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;

if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬ ‭


Often I think we look at others as if “they just don’t get it they just won’t repent like me “ but that’s not how we look at someone we actually love who does something wrong . We tend to be much more patient and gentle with those we love

I guess what I’m asking you is the word rebuke does that need to be wounding ? Or can one rebuke or correct another with gentleness ? Or should we seperate the two ?

again , I find a lot of good thinking in your words , I do think you should consider both side by side and maybe then rebuke might not part from the other instruction about the importance of being “ gentle to all men , patient with those who oppose our own ideas .

when we start figuring what’s best for each other and landing blows for their good , it doesn’t bring people together or draw them into the church , it creates conflict and they find the same thing they found in the world

I liked your post I just again felt like the rest should be left in the thread. I apologize if you feel I’m attacking you or something not at all what I intended , I think the reason I left the scripture about being gentle and patient was more to season what you were saying so as to like your saying there not let anyone misunderstand about how we should treat others in the church
First of all, I honestly don't feel the least bit attacked by you, and I actually appreciate all of the feedback that I'm receiving here.

As far as rebuking is concerned, your question reminded me of something that I heard someone say many years ago.

Before I tell you what he said, let me quickly mention this...

The sword of the Spirit is the word of God, and that is what ultimately cuts people to the heart that they might repent.

With that being the case, and with this imagery of a "sword" in our minds, this is what the man that I referred to said (of course, I'm paraphrasing)...

"If I want to stick somebody in the heart with a sword, then I don't have to charge at them while screaming like a maniac to do it. Instead, I can just gently walk up to them and do it."

In other words, the rebuke itself can be softly spoken, BUT the rebuke itself is what also oftentimes causes the "friction" that I've been talking about, and it usually doesn't matter in which manner it comes to a person (softly or somewhat assertively).

Does that answer your question?

The reason why I've been talking about "smashing", or "hammering", or "friction" is because of the opening text in this thread.

Again, IRON sharpens iron.

When IRON is sharpening iron, there is "smashing", or "hammering", or "friction" depending on what stage of the "sharpening" we're talking about.

I'm NOT suggesting that we LITERALLY "smash" or "hammer" anybody, but, figuratively speaking, we may have to "smash" their currently-held beliefs or "hammer" the same, so I'm certainly NOT advocating any sort of real brute force.

Hopefully, this makes sense.

Just please consider my comments in the light of the actual scripture that I started this thread with. That's all that I ask.

I chose that scripture deliberately because of all of the infighting I've seen on this forum so far, and I've been involved in a lot of it myself.

In my estimation, there are two different groups of combatants (if I can use that word) here:

1. Those who are seeking to smash their opponents.
2. Those who are seeking to smash their opponents faulty doctrine.

I certainly don't advocate the first, but there is a place for the second.

Of course, everyone believes that their doctrine is the correct doctrine, and that's where rightly-dividing the word comes into play.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#48
No matey! I'm 100% serious, which is that the Corinthians were to take Paul's threat seriously, but not literally. I thought that was rather insightful. :)
You mean I got something right?

I must have stepped in something (looks down to check the bottom of his shoe)...lol.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,114
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#51
First of all, I honestly don't feel the least bit attacked by you, and I actually appreciate all of the feedback that I'm receiving here.

As far as rebuking is concerned, your question reminded me of something that I heard someone say many years ago.

Before I tell you what he said, let me quickly mention this...

The sword of the Spirit is the word of God, and that is what ultimately cuts people to the heart that they might repent.

With that being the case, and with this imagery of a "sword" in our minds, this is what the man that I referred to said (of course, I'm paraphrasing)...

"If I want to stick somebody in the heart with a sword, then I don't have to charge at them while screaming like a maniac to do it. Instead, I can just gently walk up to them and do it."

In other words, the rebuke itself can be softly spoken, BUT the rebuke itself is what also oftentimes causes the "friction" that I've been talking about, and it usually doesn't matter in which manner it comes to a person (softly or somewhat assertively).

Does that answer your question?

The reason why I've been talking about "smashing", or "hammering", or "friction" is because of the opening text in this thread.

Again, IRON sharpens iron.

When IRON is sharpening iron, there is "smashing", or "hammering", or "friction" depending on what stage of the "sharpening" we're talking about.

I'm NOT suggesting that we LITERALLY "smash" or "hammer" anybody, but, figuratively speaking, we may have to "smash" their currently-held beliefs or "hammer" the same, so I'm certainly NOT advocating any sort of real brute force.

Hopefully, this makes sense.

Just please consider my comments in the light of the actual scripture that I started this thread with. That's all that I ask.

I chose that scripture deliberately because of all of the infighting I've seen on this forum so far, and I've been involved in a lot of it myself.

In my estimation, there are two different groups of combatants (if I can use that word) here:

1. Those who are seeking to smash their opponents.
2. Those who are seeking to smash their opponents faulty doctrine.

I certainly don't advocate the first, but there is a place for the second.

Of course, everyone believes that their doctrine is the correct doctrine, and that's where rightly-dividing the word comes into play.
yes yes it does make very good sense and I appreciate the good spirit you have exhibited in your posts all of them
also your patience with me is appreciated

it could also be that I’m not qualified or don’t have any authority to feel as if I am able to rebuke or correct anyone else. That’s just where I’m personally at and others maybe are somewhere a bit further along. And I do mean that intonation sarcasm Or anything . I’m a novice just someone who wondered why every one I personally heard preaching always had different ideas to tell
Me and different explaianarions of the same verses and how they apply

so in that confusion o simply began to seek for myself what’s there and pray so I’m possibly just not well educated in the matter . I’m definitely working on a better understanding so I know there’s a lot I don’t understand and it could be that this subject is one of those things

brother again I really enjoyed the post , my point in replying was to offer some seasoning to take the meal with, if that makes sense

often a really good message can exist but if there is another point that applies a fuller understanding comes forth , I really really enjoyed this particular post here and you don’t have to convince me of what you were getting at in the op , I understood I just felt the presence of the gentleness scripture would offer that seasoning so no one ran with the hammer

was in no way attempting to correct you or any such thing but meaning to add to your post a thought that applies. This again is not me saying you don’t get it or anything , just for the forum I thought that set of verses for well and added that seasoning

So as to speak this a bit

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:22-23‬ ‭

“Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭18:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭10:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a gentleness about our savior that is amazing grace
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,437
1,856
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#52
yes yes it does make very good sense and I appreciate the good spirit you have exhibited in your posts all of them
also your patience with me is appreciated

it could also be that I’m not qualified or don’t have any authority to feel as if I am able to rebuke or correct anyone else. That’s just where I’m personally at and others maybe are somewhere a bit further along. And I do mean that intonation sarcasm Or anything . I’m a novice just someone who wondered why every one I personally heard preaching always had different ideas to tell
Me and different explaianarions of the same verses and how they apply

so in that confusion o simply began to seek for myself what’s there and pray so I’m possibly just not well educated in the matter . I’m definitely working on a better understanding so I know there’s a lot I don’t understand and it could be that this subject is one of those things

brother again I really enjoyed the post , my point in replying was to offer some seasoning to take the meal with, if that makes sense

often a really good message can exist but if there is another point that applies a fuller understanding comes forth , I really really enjoyed this particular post here and you don’t have to convince me of what you were getting at in the op , I understood I just felt the presence of the gentleness scripture would offer that seasoning so no one ran with the hammer

was in no way attempting to correct you or any such thing but meaning to add to your post a thought that applies. This again is not me saying you don’t get it or anything , just for the forum I thought that set of verses for well and added that seasoning

So as to speak this a bit

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:22-23‬ ‭

“Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭18:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭10:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a gentleness about our savior that is amazing grace
Great post . . . a nice example for others to follow and imitate.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#53
Even in the secular world true friends are not those who agree with each other in everything, they are those who are so free with each other that they can speak of their differences without any worry that it damages their friendship.

How boring and superficial life would be if it was only filled with "yes" men.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,114
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#54
Great post . . . a nice example for others to follow and imitate.
Oof lol I’m definitely not an example for anyone to follow , I am someone who would go out of my way to help a brother in Christ stand up if he fell in the mud , but most likely I’d be following them and thier example I really would love to find a leader in Christ to follow, until then I’m going to stumble my way after Jesus and I guess that’s not too bad of a place to be in my mind because every time I fall or fail , he stands me up and dusts me off and tells me I’m forgiven

I find someone worth following in him
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,114
4,914
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#55
Even in the secular world true friends are not those who agree with each other in everything, they are those who are so free with each other that they can speak of their differences without any worry that it damages their friendship.

How boring and superficial life would be if it was only filled with "yes" men.
I think the idea of that verse is good solid friends make each other better . I don’t think iron has anything to do with it I think it’s saying solid company sharpens you up as you also do to them

I honestly see some iron sharpening iron in this thread
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#56
yes yes it does make very good sense and I appreciate the good spirit you have exhibited in your posts all of them
also your patience with me is appreciated

it could also be that I’m not qualified or don’t have any authority to feel as if I am able to rebuke or correct anyone else. That’s just where I’m personally at and others maybe are somewhere a bit further along. And I do mean that intonation sarcasm Or anything . I’m a novice just someone who wondered why every one I personally heard preaching always had different ideas to tell
Me and different explaianarions of the same verses and how they apply

so in that confusion o simply began to seek for myself what’s there and pray so I’m possibly just not well educated in the matter . I’m definitely working on a better understanding so I know there’s a lot I don’t understand and it could be that this subject is one of those things

brother again I really enjoyed the post , my point in replying was to offer some seasoning to take the meal with, if that makes sense

often a really good message can exist but if there is another point that applies a fuller understanding comes forth , I really really enjoyed this particular post here and you don’t have to convince me of what you were getting at in the op , I understood I just felt the presence of the gentleness scripture would offer that seasoning so no one ran with the hammer

was in no way attempting to correct you or any such thing but meaning to add to your post a thought that applies. This again is not me saying you don’t get it or anything , just for the forum I thought that set of verses for well and added that seasoning

So as to speak this a bit

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:22-23‬ ‭

“Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭18:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭10:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a gentleness about our savior that is amazing grace
When it comes to rebuking or correcting anyone else, I always try (notice that I didn't say that I always succeed...lol) to keep these two portions of scripture in mind:

II Corinthians chapter 10

[3] For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
[4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
[6] And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

We're really not supposed to be seeking to "revenge all disobedience" or rebuke others until our own "obedience is fulfilled" or until we've first repented ourselves.

Along these same lines, we read:

Matthew chapter 7

[1] Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

It's the same principle.

Basically, repent first yourself, and then you're qualified to tell others to repent of the very same things which you've previously repented of yourself.

For me, there are two outcomes that we should expect if we follow this Biblical principle.

1. We'll be more patient and merciful with the person we're rebuking or reproving because we will have realized how much of God's mercy we needed ourselves and how patient or long-suffering he had been with us while waiting for us to repent.

This seems to be more along the lines of what you've been adding here, and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

When we get to what I believe the second outcome should be however, then this is where I might lose a lot of people.

2. We'll realize that if we didn't ultimately repent, then there could/would have been major consequences that followed, and this should place a sense of urgency and/or fear of God in us to admonish others to repent of the very same things that we've previously repented of.

I know that it seems like I just contradicted myself by saying we should be patient while also having a sense of urgency (in that our lives are but a vapor and we don't really have a promise of tomorrow), but that's what I believe.

It's pretty much having the love of God and the fear of God simultaneously.

I hope that this makes some sort of sense.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#57
Even in the secular world true friends are not those who agree with each other in everything, they are those who are so free with each other that they can speak of their differences without any worry that it damages their friendship.

How boring and superficial life would be if it was only filled with "yes" men.
Believe it or not (BELIEVE IT), I used to be the biggest "yes" man ever (as a professing Christian), and God himself REBUKED the heck out of me, multiple times over a period of time, until I finally repented.

EVERYBODY AND THEIR GRANDMOTHER used to love me.

Once I started telling people the things that God was telling me to tell them...well, let's just say that I don't get invited to too many parties...lol.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,850
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#58
Believe it or not (BELIEVE IT), I used to be the biggest "yes" man ever (as a professing Christian), and God himself REBUKED the heck out of me, multiple times over a period of time, until I finally repented.

EVERYBODY AND THEIR GRANDMOTHER used to love me.

Once I started telling people the things that God was telling me to tell them...well, let's just say that I don't get invited to too many parties...lol.

I'm an old man and noticed something about Paul several years ago watching people argue about eschatology,,,(I hope it's helpful and in the spirit of your thread)... What I noticed was that almost every time 2 Thess.2 is mentioned in threads it is usually about the rapture or timing of things ect. and so the other things Paul said and did are missed.

In 2 Thessalonians Paul is writing to them and says in 2 Thess. 2:1-4 that he beseeches them that they be not shaken in mind or troubled ect. in that the coming of the Lord or our gathering is "at hand" https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Thessalonians 2&version=KJV

Anyway though it occurred to me that the Thessalonians seemingly were "troubled and shaken" in the way they were seeing the coming of the Lord and our being gathered ect...(eschatology) but unlike the way we treat each other I noticed that Paul saw the Thessalonians as "bretheren"(verse 15) and he even though he knew that they misunderstood it he treated them as loved and precious. I realized then after seeing how Paul reacted to the Thessalonians not understanding something about the events unfolding that we should really follow his example when it comes to others not understanding things.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#59
I'm an old man and noticed something about Paul several years ago watching people argue about eschatology,,,(I hope it's helpful and in the spirit of your thread)... What I noticed was that almost every time 2 Thess.2 is mentioned in threads it is usually about the rapture or timing of things ect. and so the other things Paul said and did are missed.

In 2 Thessalonians Paul is writing to them and says in 2 Thess. 2:1-4 that he beseeches them that they be not shaken in mind or troubled ect. in that the coming of the Lord or our gathering is "at hand" https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Thessalonians 2&version=KJV

Anyway though it occurred to me that the Thessalonians seemingly were "troubled and shaken" in the way they were seeing the coming of the Lord and our being gathered ect...(eschatology) but unlike the way we treat each other I noticed that Paul saw the Thessalonians as "bretheren"(verse 15) and he even though he knew that they misunderstood it he treated them as loved and precious. I realized then after seeing how Paul reacted to the Thessalonians not understanding something about the events unfolding that we should really follow his example when it comes to others not understanding things.
Thanks for sharing your own insights.

Your post reminded me of something else that Paul regularly did:

PRAY FOR THOSE HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO MINISTER TO.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
13,124
113
#60
iron sharpens iron?
But I thought when you sharpen something you dont smash it up, you just go back and forth like a saw.
At least, thats how I sharpen my gardening tools and secateurs with the sharpening stone.

If I smashed them theyd just break up and fall apart.