Irresistible Grace ?

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#1
The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
2,103
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64
#2
Hello @throughfaith, we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.

Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").

As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,

Acts 13
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary
(take note of v11).

Romans 3
9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
2,385
1,966
113
#3
The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
113
#4
Hello @throughfaith, we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.

Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").

As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,

Acts 13
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary
(take note of v11).

Romans 3
9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.
Yes the word as many as denotes a fixed number. Those appointed or elected refers to the work of faith or labor of Love Christ working in us to both will and perform that which is appointed/elected to the person he ids drawing.

No drawing a persons heart remains hard . Some that are drawn murmur like Jonas .

Acts 13 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life "believed."

No drawing, no appointment. No voting not a democracy .

Job 23:13-16 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

No self appointed salvation .He must do the first creative work of His faith and soften our new born again hearts.


.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,472
6,134
113
#5
5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .
1. We do not need to have a truth repeated more than once to make it valid. It is enough that Jesus said that "unless the Father draw one" he cannot come to Christ. But the Father draws ALL MEN to Christ as we see in Isaiah 45:22: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

2. Revelation 22:17 tells us that the Spirit draws all men to Christ: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

3. And finally Christ draws all men to Himself (John 12:32): And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- being one God -- draw all men to Christ through the Gospel. That is why it is for all the world and for every creature. So all are meant to be drawn, and all are meant to be saved. But all will not obey the Gospel.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
1,212
113
#6
Hello @throughfaith, we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.

Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").

As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,

Acts 13
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary
(take note of v11).

Romans 3
9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.
I believe that because of the T in TULIP of course we need some verses to suggest ' corpse like deadness ' ( Lazuraus) The whole system ( because of Augustine) hangs on the T , everything has to logically follow .
Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
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#7
1. We do not need to have a truth repeated more than once to make it valid. It is enough that Jesus said that "unless the Father draw one" he cannot come to Christ. But the Father draws ALL MEN to Christ as we see in Isaiah 45:22: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

2. Revelation 22:17 tells us that the Spirit draws all men to Christ: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

3. And finally Christ draws all men to Himself (John 12:32): And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- being one God -- draw all men to Christ through the Gospel. That is why it is for all the world and for every creature. So all are meant to be drawn, and all are meant to be saved. But all will not obey the Gospel.
For something so critical to how one is saved , as Calvinism tells us ,we see no mention in the Epistles. This is quite remarkable. As I said its before the cross also . The verses you give have no mention of ' drawing ' . Yes they can come .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
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#8
Yes the word as many as denotes a fixed number. Those appointed or elected refers to the work of faith or labor of Love Christ working in us to both will and perform that which is appointed/elected to the person he ids drawing.

No drawing a persons heart remains hard . Some that are drawn murmur like Jonas .

Acts 13 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life "believed."

No drawing, no appointment. No voting not a democracy .

Job 23:13-16 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

No self appointed salvation .He must do the first creative work of His faith and soften our new born again hearts.


.
If we look at certain verses with a certain set of glasses we could make Acts 13 fit the system as Augustine did in debating Pelagius. Acts 13 is simply saying they disposed themselves to believe after hearing the message . The context proves this . look at the build up ""42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44¶And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and JUDGE YOURSELF unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
 
May 31, 2020
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#9
IMO some folks see the word “drawn” meaning God takes an active role in pulling some people to Him and they have no choice in the matter. I see “drawn” this way:

A person is lost in the wilderness and literally dying of thirst. At one point the person sees water off in the distance and bee lines it in order to take a drink. That person was drawn to the water because of a desire from within to have a drink.

Same thing with Jesus. People who recognize that He is God are drawn to Him from a desire within to be with God. He is our Living Water and we are drawn to Him so that we may drink.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
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#10
Yes the word as many as denotes a fixed number. Those appointed or elected refers to the work of faith or labor of Love Christ working in us to both will and perform that which is appointed/elected to the person he ids drawing.

No drawing a persons heart remains hard . Some that are drawn murmur like Jonas .

Acts 13 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life "believed."

No drawing, no appointment. No voting not a democracy .

Job 23:13-16 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

No self appointed salvation .He must do the first creative work of His faith and soften our new born again hearts.


.
What has happened is the System rests on ' Total inability ' . Once this is established, everything else has to cascade from this downward , logically . The system now dictates . " We are all dead literally because of the Fall ( step 1 ) " How are we saved ? " well ' regeneration has to precede faith , we need ' awakening first . " but not all believe " erm " limited atonement , Jesus only died to save those arbitrary elected to be saved for no reasons given before we were born.
" oh i see , but what if they don't want..." irresistible Grace " i see , and what if they don't make it to the end ? " Perseverance of the Saints " .
And round and round we go ..The system was born . Thanks to Augustine s Gnosticism.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
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#11
1. We do not need to have a truth repeated more than once to make it valid. It is enough that Jesus said that "unless the Father draw one" he cannot come to Christ. But the Father draws ALL MEN to Christ as we see in Isaiah 45:22: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

2. Revelation 22:17 tells us that the Spirit draws all men to Christ: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

3. And finally Christ draws all men to Himself (John 12:32): And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- being one God -- draw all men to Christ through the Gospel. That is why it is for all the world and for every creature. So all are meant to be drawn, and all are meant to be saved. But all will not obey the Gospel.
///0)]The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- being one God -- draw all men to Christ through the Gospel. That is why it is for all the world and for every creature. So all are meant to be drawn, and all are meant to be saved. But all will not obey the Gospel.// Agree with this .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
1,212
113
#12
Hello @throughfaith, we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.

Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").

As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,

Acts 13
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary
(take note of v11).

Romans 3
9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.
No problem . I have three children under 5 so I have my hands full at times lol . God bless .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
1,212
113
#13
Hello @throughfaith, we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.

Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").

As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,

Acts 13
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary
(take note of v11).

Romans 3
9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.
My response to Acts 13 . The gentiles Chose themselves to hear the word and believe. If you look at verses before leading up .
//42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.( They want to hear )
43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44¶And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselfs unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles
47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48¶And when the Gentiles HEARD THIS they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Ok then a great deal is made of ' ordained ' and the context is over looked . There are some key buzz words where this happens in other places ,again where the context is completely missed . : ordained , chosen , elect , called, dead , ect .
 
May 19, 2020
3,050
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#14
///0)]The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- being one God -- draw all men to Christ through the Gospel. That is why it is for all the world and for every creature. So all are meant to be drawn, and all are meant to be saved. But all will not obey the Gospel.// Agree with this .

I find a lot of what you post..is of your own human understanding ....you don't seem to understand when the Holy Spirit speaks through a few believers on here....

How do you know that the Holy Spirit resides in your heart?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
1,212
113
#15
Hello @throughfaith, we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.

Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").

As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,

Acts 13
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary
(take note of v11).

Romans 3
9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.
I think the preceding verses explain ( rom 3 )
19¶Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21¶But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
1,212
113
#16
I find a lot of what you post..is of your own human understanding ....you don't seem to understand when the Holy Spirit speaks through a few believers on here....

How do you know that the Holy Spirit resides in your heart?
Because I lean not on my understanding I trust the word of God that I'm saved .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
1,212
113
#17
I think the preceding verses explain ( rom 3 )
19¶Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21¶But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
' therefore by the deeds of the law , no flesh shall be justified ' is the point.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,740
1,212
113
#18
I find a lot of what you post..is of your own human understanding ....you don't seem to understand when the Holy Spirit speaks through a few believers on here....

How do you know that the Holy Spirit resides in your heart?
The Holy Spirit is speaking through me on this post , and everyone who disagrees is ignoring the Holy Spirit. Do you see the issue in what your saying ?
 
May 19, 2020
3,050
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#20
The Holy Spirit is speaking through me on this post , and everyone who disagrees is ignoring the Holy Spirit. Do you see the issue in what your saying ?

I don't see the Holy Spirit speaking through you at all....scripture you post,you twist and turn it to mean what you want it to mean......you speak your own thoughts.your own words.