Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

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cv5

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You don't get it. We don't do it as a public affirmation. We do it in submission to the Lord; we die with Him and are raised with Him. It could be done with no "public" at all present, just you and the one baptizing you. You insist on making it nothing more than a "public affirmation"; by doing so you drain it of its spiritual power and majesty.
Bro....I DO get it. Yes, it IS an act of submission to His Lordship. Among many other things as well.

But generally, it is a public act. But not necessarily or exclusively. Such as the case of the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts 8. Even in this case there was likely an entourage to witness the act.

Act 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

True saving faith comes BEFORE baptism. Already saved. Then the ritual.
 

Wansvic

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You don't get it. We don't do it as a public affirmation. We do it in submission to the Lord; we die with Him and are raised with Him. It could be done with no "public" at all present, just you and the one baptizing you. You insist on making it nothing more than a "public affirmation"; by doing so you drain it of its spiritual power and majesty.
I'm somewhat confused. You see that in obedience to baptism a spiritual reality takes place where individual's are buried with Jesus into His death. But don't see it as being a necessary part of one's salvation. How can those who have not been buried with Jesus in order for their sins to be remitted be saved? Could you please explain how you come to this conclusion. Thank you!
 

Wansvic

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Paul said that the Jews required Christians to get circumcised so they could
"boast about your flesh" (Gal 6:12-15) I suspect that some Christians insist upon
ritual water baptism for the same reason. (And boast about their own too)
_
The point being made by Paul was OT circumcision had no bearing on those living in the NT. Jews were trying to convince people that the old ways were still in effect because they themselves refused to accept the truth concerning Jesus. The boasting spoken of pertained to the Jews. If they convinced a person to be circumcised they could boast that it was proof that people actually believed, as they did, that Jesus' crucifixion had changed nothing.
 

Wansvic

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@cv5 Any thoughts regarding post#1079? "Actually Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:15-16) And Peter and Ananias spoke of sins being remitted in obedience to water baptism. (Acts 2:38, 22:16) This speaks to baptism being more than just a public affirmation. Yet many refuse to believe Jesus, and those whom He used to carry the life saving message. Also many refuse to accept that water baptism is to be administered in the name of the very person who was crucified to save humanity; Jesus. Relevant? According to Jesus it is. Because everyone is going to be judged by what the word actually says, not according to personal opinions. (John 12:48)"
 

Webers.Home

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You see that in obedience to baptism a spiritual reality takes place where
individual's are buried with Jesus into His death. But don't see it as being a
necessary part of one's salvation. How can those who have not been buried
with Jesus in order for their sins to be remitted be saved?

(What I have to say has likely been posted at least once already.)

If ritual water baptism were an effective means of joining with Christ in his
crucifixion and resurrection, then even Jehovah's Witnesses would be on
their way to glory.

No; in order for folks to join with Christ they have to undergo the Spirit's
baptism.

1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body

The "one body" is course Jesus' crucified body; not the one he has now.
_
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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I'm somewhat confused. You see that in obedience to baptism a spiritual reality takes place where individual's are buried with Jesus into His death. But don't see it as being a necessary part of one's salvation. How can those who have not been buried with Jesus in order for their sins to be remitted be saved? Could you please explain how you come to this conclusion. Thank you!
I don't think I care to explain myself to you. If history has taught me anything it's not that you want me to "unconfuse" you, but you want to find something to seize upon and draw me into an all day debate.
 

Webers.Home

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And Peter and Ananias spoke of sins being remitted in obedience to water
baptism. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

I strongly suspect that Hell is populated with large numbers of folks whose
sins were remitted by means of ritual water baptism but somehow failed
to join with Jesus in his crucifixion and resurrection by means of the
Spirit's baptism.
_
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Bro....I DO get it. Yes, it IS an act of submission to His Lordship. Among many other things as well.

But generally, it is a public act. But not necessarily or exclusively. Such as the case of the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts 8. Even in this case there was likely an entourage to witness the act.

Act 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

True saving faith comes BEFORE baptism. Already saved. Then the ritual.
Acts of submission to the Lord are many as you say. However, do you not see obedience to water baptism as corresponding specifically to the NT rebirth? Many scriptures reveal this; such as, Acts 2:36-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16. These scriptures make it easy to see that obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus parallels one of the requirements Jesus said is required in order for people to become born again in John 3:5.
 

Wansvic

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I don't think I care to explain myself to you. If history has taught me anything it's not that you want me to "unconfuse" you, but you want to find something to seize upon and draw me into an all day debate.
That was not my intention at all. I sincerely wanted to understand what you meant. No biggie. I accept your decision not to share.
 

Webers.Home

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John 3:5 . . I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

The water spoken of in that verse is commonly believed to be ordinary H2O,
but Jesus spoke of it again in John 4:10 as living water; which isn't for
bathing, rather, it's specifically for drinking.

John 4:11-14 . . Sir-- the woman said --you have nothing to draw with and
the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Jesus answered:
Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the
water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become
in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

In other words: the the water Jesus spoke of in John 3:5 is a supernatural
beverage rather than ritual Christian baptism.
_
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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(What I have to say has likely been posted at least once already.)

If ritual water baptism were an effective means of joining with Christ in his
crucifixion and resurrection, then even Jehovah's Witnesses would be on
their way to glory.


No; in order for folks to join with Christ they have to undergo the Spirit's
baptism.


1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body

The "one body" is course Jesus' crucified body; not the one he has now.
_
Obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus results in the reality of one's sins being remitted. However, the spiritual reality is dependent upon belief in the entire gospel message. The word says those who believe and obey the command can expect to have their sins washed away. (Acts 2:36-42) God watches over His word to perform it. (Jeremiah 1:1-12) Since Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ their being baptized would result in nothing more than getting wet.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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I strongly suspect that Hell is populated with large numbers of folks whose
sins were remitted by means of ritual water baptism but somehow failed
to join with Jesus in his crucifixion and resurrection by means of the
Spirit's baptism.
_
Surely you are not accusing Peter and Ananias of lying about sins being forgiven in obedience to water baptism. The rebirth experience involves obedience to it along with receiving the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. Being reborn requires both. (John 3:5)
 
P

Polar

Guest
If baptism is for public display of some kind, who was the public present at the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8? Just the eunuch and Philip were there. That's nonsense abd no where do the scriptures say or suggest that's the reason for baptism.
no one said baptism was for public display

that is your choice in words to try and make it seem I am making light of baptism and it is a cheap shot

What I actually said:

True baptism is a public act illustrating that we have accepted Christ and we now are alive in Him. Only the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin. Water is symbolic and not the actual method of cleansing from sin. It works pretty good on dirt but is useless with a spiritual problem. Sin, is a spiritual problem which is why God Himself provided a way out of that problem.

You have been here since Oct. 20 and yet you choose a post I made July 28th of this year and fabricate what was said in that post to try and make it seem I am making light of baptism

Water is symbolic. Only the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin....ALL sin in fact
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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John 3:5 . . I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


The water spoken of in that verse is commonly believed to be ordinary H2O,
but Jesus spoke of it again in John 4:10 as living water; which isn't for
bathing, rather, it's specifically for drinking.


John 4:11-14 . . Sir-- the woman said --you have nothing to draw with and
the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Jesus answered:
Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the
water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become
in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.


In other words: the the water Jesus spoke of in John 3:5 is a supernatural
beverage rather than ritual Christian baptism.
_
See the truth of Jesus statement in action:

Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


Acts 10:43-48 (Gentiles)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who were baptized by John the Baptist did not realize they had to water baptized in Jesus name. After being told they were re-baptized in water and afterward received the Holy Ghost.

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Acts 9:17-18 (Apostle Paul) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Acts 22:14-16 (Paul's water baptism)
And he (Ananias) said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.




Paul filled with Holy Ghost
 

Webers.Home

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Surely you are not accusing Peter and Ananias of lying about sins being
forgiven in obedience to water baptism.

Have you considered the possibility that your understanding of complicated
spiritual matters might be somewhat lacking? Beware thinking of yourself as
infallible and speaking for God ex cathedra.
_
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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no one said baptism was for public display

that is your choice in words to try and make it seem I am making light of baptism and it is a cheap shot

What I actually said:




You have been here since Oct. 20 and yet you choose a post I made July 28th of this year and fabricate what was said in that post to try and make it seem I am making light of baptism

Water is symbolic. Only the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin....ALL sin in fact
I believe the point being made by DJT_47 is that your explanation indicates that you do not believe a spiritual reality takes place at the moment a person obeys the command to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord. As such reducing the action to a ritual for public display. Whereas others do believe that obedience to water baptism is what brings about the reality of one's personal sin being remitted in accordance with Jesus' sacrifice.
 
P

Polar

Guest
I believe the point being made by DJT_47 is that your explanation indicates that you do not believe a spiritual reality takes place at the moment a person obeys the command to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord. As such reducing the action to a ritual for public display. Whereas others do believe that obedience to water baptism is what brings about the reality of one's personal sin being remitted in accordance with Jesus' sacrifice.
wansvic, I have been around the globe several times on this subject ... with you...and I'm not getting into it again

I think you have some good insightful things to say and I believe that you believe what you believe

I don't

thanks
 

Webers.Home

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John 3:3 . . I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless
he is born again.

Some years ago I challenged a know-it-all Sunday school teacher with this
question:

Was Joseph born again?

The teacher was utterly baffled and asked me to explain. I responded, in so
many words; that Jesus said "no one" can see the kingdom of God unless he
is born again. I assume he meant no exceptions.

* If perchance Jesus meant no exceptions, then how were the Old
Testament guys born of the water Jesus spoke of?

John 3:5 . . I tell you the truth; no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless he is born of water . . .
_
 
P

Polar

Guest
I believe the point being made by DJT_47 is that your explanation indicates that you do not believe a spiritual reality takes place at the moment a person obeys the command to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord. As such reducing the action to a ritual for public display. Whereas others do believe that obedience to water baptism is what brings about the reality of one's personal sin being remitted in accordance with Jesus' sacrifice.
now I will address this

I think DJT can speak for himself.

the spiritual reality? with water? as I said, we have engaged each other many times in times past and we are not going to ever agree unless you change your mind (little joke there)

if things were as you say, then from the age of 5 to 13 or 14 (when I was baptized in water), then I would have gone to hell since I was not baptized in water. nice.

listen, you are also Oneness Pentecostal and believe in Jesus only and using the name of Jesus ONLY when baptized

I betcha plenty of folks won't agree with that even though they will agree baptism is part of salvation

call me old fashioned. I just believe what scripture says:

The Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30). Paul and Silas responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).

not to mention many many others scriptures that bear witness to the fact that the blood of Christ ALONE cleanses us from sin

so yeah, covered all the bases with you and you with me (according to your version of salvation) and the Holy Spirit makes it plain it is Christ and He alone that saves....but people should be water baptized AFTER to illustrate their desire to follow Him

seriously? please don't 'ring' my doorbell about this again ;)
 

hornetguy

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Jan 18, 2016
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John 3:3 . . I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless
he is born again.


Some years ago I challenged a know-it-all Sunday school teacher with this
question:


Was Joseph born again?

The teacher was utterly baffled and asked me to explain. I responded, in so
many words; that Jesus said "no one" can see the kingdom of God unless he
is born again. I assume he meant no exceptions.


* If perchance Jesus meant no exceptions, then how were the Old
Testament guys born of the water Jesus spoke of?


John 3:5 . . I tell you the truth; no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless he is born of water . . .
_
The kingdom Jesus spoke of was his church... and obviously the "OT guys" as you put it were not around to see it. They were covered under the old law.... you know... the one Jesus came to fulfil and do away with?