Is Communion (the Eucharist) just a symbol?

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Jan 8, 2009
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#21
Truly, the Spirit gives life and there is no life without Him and life is a supernatural gift, but Jesus just said,
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:53-54).



Catholics or anyone who interprets these verses as to cannibalise Christ, don't understand the spiritual nature of what Jesus was saying just like those who left Christ in disgust. It is ironic, that the same interpretation of Christ's words which caused Jews and his disciples to be disgusted with what Christ said (particularly with the strict dietry laws) and leave Him, is the very same reason which is used to support this false notion that Christ's literal flesh and literal blood is to be consumed!

We need to understand the purpose of Jesus's humorous shock and awe tactics, which was to get the people who only had their minds set on their stomachs to get lost!

Christ would never say that people actually had to eat his flesh and blood and mean it because it contradicts the food laws about consuming blood and cannibalism !, going right back to Genesis. If Christ said he had to be cannibalised (in a literal sense) , then it means Christ was a sinner as He violated God's laws!


Cannibalising Christ is a fleshly understanding of what Jesus said, and is in fact worse than those who left Christ in disgust. A spiritual understanding is that we receive His body and blood, His life, into us by faith! That is by trusting in His literal and fleshly sacrifice, and remembering it, by literally consuming actual bread and wine which is NOT Christ's flesh in any sense but does represent it in a figurature sense!
 
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Jan 8, 2009
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#22
The whole purpose of the communion is exactly that - to COMMUNE, with others, and more importantly, with Christ who is present with us by His Spirit.

To engage is a repulsive cannabilistic blood-cult orgy of Christ's body and blood resembles nothing like the original instructions or observance of what is taught in Scripture - which is why the catholic church must resort to mis-quoted writings from the early church fathers in order to support their erroneous ways.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#23
To anyone (catholic or otherwise) who does believe it literally becomes flesh and blood , if it did in fact turn into real human flesh and real human blood before your eyes would you still consume it!? I find that most of the arguments about the bread and wine turning into anything other than bread and wine, imaginatively vain!
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
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#24
To anyone (catholic or otherwise) who does believe it literally becomes flesh and blood , if it did in fact turn into real human flesh and real human blood before your eyes would you still consume it!? I find that most of the arguments about the bread and wine turning into anything other than bread and wine, imaginatively vain!

Well, it's done it in the past. And besides, the life is in the blood. How much more so when it's the precious blood of Our Lord.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#25
Well, it's done it in the past. And besides, the life is in the blood. How much more so when it's the precious blood of Our Lord.
Past when? I'm curious.

Jesus also said whatever goes into the stomach doesn't make a person clean or unclean, but what comes out of the heart. That's another point where the idea of consuming food in order to get spiritual life is flawed.
 
Sep 27, 2009
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#26
Past when? I'm curious.

Jesus also said whatever goes into the stomach doesn't make a person clean or unclean, but what comes out of the heart. That's another point where the idea of consuming food in order to get spiritual life is flawed.
That was talking about the ritualized hand washing that the teachers of man-made doctrines in His day were substituting for the Word of G-d.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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#27
Why do we take something so simple and great and make it so confusing. Jesus said: this is my body, this is my blood. Do this in memory of me.: That is simply what he said and asked. So this is what we should do. God bless, pickles
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
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#28
There's many recorded instances of Eucharistic miracles. A simple google search will lead to many accounts. The Catholics have officially recognized just a few instances, but they tend to be cautious in calling things a miracle. I'm not sure about how often it's occurred for the Eastern Orthodox.
 
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motojojo

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#29
Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist.
During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.
The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.
The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.
Various ecclesiastical investigation ("Recognitions") were conducted since 1574.
In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.
The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

  • The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.
  • The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
  • The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.
  • In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
  • The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.
  • The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).
  • In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.
  • In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.
  • The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.
 
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motojojo

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#30
I know this is hard for many to have child like faith and believe that the Creator of the Universe could do such a thing. I will let this die down and could we move on to the next debate. I would like to see more unity between Christians and this subject is not doing the body of Christ any good. We have such divisions and it saddens my heart. I'm sorry for any ill fillings about this. Please lets move on, what do we all believe in?
 
Sep 19, 2009
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#31
This is where I stand on the matter. I believe it is truly the body and blood of our Lord. This is partly because of how many times the Lord repeated this. He said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood to enter heaven. Someone may say, "well he was just being symbolic, if it was really his body and blood he should have been more clear." But Jesus clarifies even further, "My body is food indeed, my blood is drink indeed." The way I see it, if it were in fact his body and blood, what more could he have possibly said to clarify. And the fact that virtually all Christians for the next 1600 years believed exactly that is also important, because God is not the God of confusion, as it is written, and he would not have been so adamant in this teaching if he knew it would lead to his followers practicing idolatry for the next 1600 years. To compare with something that the Lord said which was symbolic, we can look at his born-again statement. He said a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. When asked, "Can a man enter his mothers womb a second time," Jesus clarifies its symbolic meaning, "do not marvel that I said 'you must be born again,' that which is of the flesh is flesh, and that which is of the spirit is spirit." In comparison, after he said "you must eat my flesh and drink my blood to enter the kingdom of heaven," and some of his followers said, "this is a hard saying," he did not respond by clarifying that its symbolic by saying something like "do not marvel that I said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood," but rather, he turns to his other followers and says, "will you leave me also?" This is the kind of thing that lead to all the quotes ryan posted, and 1600 years of uniform belief among Christendom. Skimming through some of the responses, I noticed some people bringing up the Old Testament and how it forbids drinking blood and such. For me, it is simple as a Christian, because the New Testament replaces the Old Testament. It is also written that anyone who hangs upon a tree is cursed, but Paul in the New Testament says that Christ became accursed for us. So while it may have been forbidden in the old Testament to drink blood, Christ commands it now. Besides, his blood is not like any other blood of any creature found in Old Testament times, it is the perfect blood of God. In addition, if you use the argument that drinking blood is forbidden in the Old Testament, wouldn't it be wrong to use such imagery for something meant to be symbolic anyways? I also noticed some people making practical arguments about how the notion is so ridiculous that it is obviously symbolic, to which I would wonder, how much more logical is it to believe that the God who is master of the universe, creator of the heavens and the earth, which the very heavens cannot contain, can be born into this world as a man living amongst us? So, I say his body is food indeed and his blood is drink indeed.
 
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Harley_Angel

Guest
#32
Why do we take something so simple and great and make it so confusing. Jesus said: this is my body, this is my blood. Do this in memory of me.: That is simply what he said and asked. So this is what we should do. God bless, pickles
Thank you Pickles! Why do we do it, is it a symbol, is it real, is it blood, is it wine? Who cares? Jesus TOLD US to do it, he told us to do it in the memory of HIM. When I take Eucharist, I'm there, with the Apostles, and Jesus is breaking the bread and pouring the wine and giving it to me. I do it because he told me to, because it brings me closer to Him, it makes a part of the living Body of our Lord, it brings me in communion with the rest of my Christians. Acts and rituals really do bring unity to a group of people. If your husband/wife bf/gf always say they love you, but never hug you, or kiss you, or smile at you, or do an act that shows they love you, how close would you truly be? When I share one cup, one bread with the rest of my congregation, we are all together, sharing the gifts God gave us, as one, as a group. It's beautiful.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#33
People who cannibalise the body and blood of Christ simply approach the matter with an unspiritual and fleshly understanding, not understanding the intent and purpose in Jesus's words.
 
J

Jezreel

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#34
The apostle Paul also warned to have us that he and drinks unworthily eats and drinks to his damantion. He corrected them about discerning the Lord's body and the richer people were gluttoning and and the ones who were poor where going without. That is why he said, "dont you have houses to eat and drink in"? Because they were not acting out of the love of the Lord and were not discerning those who were in need, there were others who were sickly and weak and dying because of it! If any man hunger, let him eat and home that you come not together unto condemnation.
That right there teaches that the Lord's supper was an entire meal, not a silly wafer and a thimble of grape juice. 1 Corinthians 11:21-34.
That is also why he warned that he that eats and drinks without discerning the Lord's body is eating and drinking ****ation to himself. The ones who were well off were not sharing with those who had not!! That is how fleshly and carnal and self centered the Corinthian church was. They were filled with the gifts of the Holy Spirit but lacking in the care of those who went without.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#35
The apostle Paul also warned to have us that he and drinks unworthily eats and drinks to his damantion. He corrected them about discerning the Lord's body and the richer people were gluttoning and and the ones who were poor where going without. That is why he said, "dont you have houses to eat and drink in"? Because they were not acting out of the love of the Lord and were not discerning those who were in need, there were others who were sickly and weak and dying because of it! If any man hunger, let him eat and home that you come not together unto condemnation.
That right there teaches that the Lord's supper was an entire meal, not a silly wafer and a thimble of grape juice. 1 Corinthians 11:21-34.
That is also why he warned that he that eats and drinks without discerning the Lord's body is eating and drinking ****ation to himself. The ones who were well off were not sharing with those who had not!! That is how fleshly and carnal and self centered the Corinthian church was. They were filled with the gifts of the Holy Spirit but lacking in the care of those who went without.

That was in reference to the Agape Meal. When you ignore the roots all your left with are the leaves and they can change depending upon the season and the weather.

That last verse is in regards to the Eucharist. The Agape meal took place first and then, after the liturgical service, they partook of the Eucharist.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#36
People who cannibalise the body and blood of Christ simply approach the matter with an unspiritual and fleshly understanding, not understanding the intent and purpose in Jesus's words.
Zwingli, Zwingli, Zwingli, what have you done?


From a Catholic blogger: Crossed the Tiber

I understand what you are saying- that His presence is really what matters! It's just that Catholics believe that receiving his body in blood in the Eucharist is the most direct way to experience his presence and avail ourselves of His grace. This is a doctrine that is very near and dear to me because once my eyes were opened to His presence in the breaking of the bread(the way the early Christians referred to the Mass) I knew I had to return to this Church because it had always been my desire to experience him as fully as possible. I still remember the feeling I had once I realized the early Christians actually believed that Jesus was still with them by way of the Eucharistic celebration/sacrifice of the altar. It was one of those "I could of had a V8" moments multiplied exponentially. I have blogged on this extensively but because of my non-existent system of archiving posts, I am going to answer Anette's question here once again using my thoughts and readings from the past 5 years.

The bread and wine becoming Christ's body and blood is very important because it is the normative way that the Christian world for 2000 has experienced the presence of Christ. It does not preclude us from experiencing Him in other ways but it is indeed the source and summit of a Catholic's faith. It is the ultimate sacrament above all other sacraments.(God's use of physical means to convey His grace) Why do we need a sacrament to fully experience God? I suspect it has something to do with the incarnation, God coming to earth as a man. He chose to use flesh and the stuff of earth to redeem us. Blood, water, bread and wine. Tertullian said that the flesh is the hinge of salvation.

The concept of receiving Christ in the Eucharist is pre-figured in the Old Testament. In the NT, John calls Jesus the Lamb of God and hinges the past with the future for the Jewish disciples. When the followers of John looked down the river and heard John say "Behold the Lamb of God" the picture that came to their mind was the Passover and the sacrificed lamb and the sure knowledge that they must eat the Lamb in in order to escape certain death. Only with a Jewish mind do I suspect we could really gather the import of those words spoken by John about his cousin.(Check this post here) Later, we hear Jesus tell us that He is the bread come down from heaven and we must eat his body and blood. Still later, the night he was betrayed, he took the bread and broke it and said: "Take and eat this is my body" Still later, as the early church started to grow, Paul had to speak to the Corinthians about their lack of discernment of the Lord's body and blood and how some were even getting sick and dying because of their abuse of the sacrament.

Please take a look at what the earliest Christians did with these words and the teachings that the disciples handed down to them. These early Christians believed that Christ would become physically and spiritually present to them in the breaking of the bread. They wrote about it extensively and defended this belief to their deaths and continued to celebrate the Mass for the next 1600 years with almost no dissent in this belief. Here's just a brief story example: Ignatius was a disciple of John, Jesus beloved disciple. He wrote about the Eucharist describing it as the body and blood of our Lord and admonished those who refused to accept it. That was just a mere 70 years after Jesus ascended to heaven. It is unlikely they could have twisted this doctrine wrong so soon. Especially being handed to them from one of the twelve original disciples.

There are pages and pages of writings of the early Church fathers that show that the early Church believed in the real presence which you can access, but my point is that this has been a constant teaching of the Church for 2000 years. There was one or two occasions in history(pre-reformation) when the doctrine of the Eucharist was challenged. Most notably was a priest named Berengar of Tours in the 11th century who argued that it was not necessary for the elements to be changed into his real body and blood, but he was the exception and almost universally this belief has been held. Even when the great schism of 1054 occurred, the Orthodox continued to carry with them this apostolic teaching and to this day we believe Christ is present in the Eucharist confected in an Orthodox Church because they can trace the succession of their priests and bishops to the original apostles.

So the early disciples believed it, the early Church believed it and it was a doctrine rarely challenged in the history of the Church. Even Luther*, at least initially, held to this belief and fought vehemently with the other reformers(Zwingli) who wished to state that the Lord's Supper was symbolic.

When you think about it, why would anyone rail against this doctrine? To believe that Jesus can still come to us in the appearance of bread and wine and give us himself, body soul and divinity? To me, it is one of the most wonderful aspects of this incarnate faith we share. Martin Luther said this in his defense of the Real Presence:

Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.


Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”


Regarding the Eucharist he also said: "For it is dangerous and dreadful to hear or believe anything against the unanimous testimony, faith, and doctrine of the entire holy Christian Church, as it has been held unanimously in all the world up to this year 1500."


So in conclusion, it is important because the Eucharist is the means in which Christ promised to abide with us, nourish us and ultimately bring us to salvation.


St Ignatius said in the 2nd Century: "Every time this mystery is celebrated, 'the work of our redemption is carried on' and we 'break the one bread that provides the medicine of immortality, the antidote for death, and the food that makes us live forever in Jesus Christ'"





*What is the sacrament of the altar?
It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under bread and wine for us Christians to eat and to drink, established by Christ Himself. ( cf Luther's little Instruction Book.)
 
J

Jezreel

Guest
#37
That was in reference to the Agape Meal. When you ignore the roots all your left with are the leaves and they can change depending upon the season and the weather.

That last verse is in regards to the Eucharist. The Agape meal took place first and then, after the liturgical service, they partook of the Eucharist.
We believe what the apostles taught, not what the who doo voo doo Roman Catholic carnals and the Poop teaches to be the actually flesh and blood of Christ.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#38
We believe what the apostles taught, not what the who doo voo doo Roman Catholic carnals and the Poop teaches to be the actually flesh and blood of Christ.
The Eucharist is the center of the liturgy just as it always has been for 2000 years. St. Ignatius was bishop of Antioch, a successor of St. Paul and was instructed by St. John, the beloved. I'm sure St. John didn't skip over instructions on the Eucharist. I'm sure the fact that the entire first century Saints who were ordained by the Apostles didn't just all randomly, across the Mesopotamia and entire globe, just come up with "presence" in the Eucharist.

In other words, it's much more probable that they believed as did the Apostles taught. Why? Because they were taught by the Apostles. Whereas you've only your interpretation which has already (not being able to distinguish between the Agape Meal and the Eucharist) been revealed as faulty. It seems you are taking your personal conditions; such as culture, history (modernity) and personal attitudes and juxtaposing them onto the scripture to render an "interpretation". The interpretation you come up with is what you seem to be Lording over the scriptures, despite the scriptures and the historical context from which God used to speak. The context in regards to the Eucharist, both within the scriptures and also in history has been unchanged for 2,000 years whereas the denial of His presence is a modern invention and has the integrity of man's ability to reason for himself despite God's reality.

I apologize if I played any part in inciting you to act toward the Roman Catholics as you have.

God bless.
 
Jul 29, 2009
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#39
We believe what the apostles taught, not what the who doo voo doo Roman Catholic carnals and the Poop teaches to be the actually flesh and blood of Christ.
What an outstanding display of intelligence and maturity you have there.

Typical evangelical response, no less.

Remember kids, there is no need for understanding or tolerance of religious beliefs that even slightly differ from your own! If you beat them up enough, those Godless heathens will convert! CONVERTCONVERTCONVERTCONVERTCONVERT!

Or...the Catholics will just look at you as a reason to never accept your religion, for fear of becoming just like you.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#40
It's fine to recognise His spiritual presence with us, but we have to realise that Christ's complete and whole human body is in heaven , not on earth. Any sort of notion that the bread and wine are anything other than bread and wine, eg Christ's flesh, is basically cannabilism. The Catholic ideas of actually eating Christ's body and drinking his blood come from pagan cannabilistic rites not the bible. That's why Ryan cannot give any bible verses to support a literal consumption of Jesus's flesh - it's all figurative. And even the words of the early church fathers are misquoted by Catholics to prove the cannabilistic ideas.
 
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