Is it faith not obedience, obedience not faith, or faith and obedience

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#1
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#2
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul uses the term "justified" in the judicial sense in which God accounts the believer as righteous. James uses the term "justified" to describe those who would show or prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony* :)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#3
James is speaking to an audience and destroying a belief one can merely believe and then live however they want.

He is stating a fact. If your faith is real (true saving faith) you will not only be born again, but have the works Paul said in Eph 2: 10 which God created you to do.

Belief is good. Even demons believe, It will not save you. Only true faith saved, and faith WILL (not might) Produce works.

Paul was fighting legalism, the thought works were required. Thats why he over and over said grace through faith alone. Not of work. We are saved. But those who are saved, will produce work.

James is fighting a belief I can believe and thats enough. And showing, If you have true faith, You will work, like I do, Like abraham did, and like all Gods children do. But if you claim to have faith, but have no works. Your decieved, yoru faith is dead. You were never saved to begin with, Because if you were. You would show some sign your faith was real.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,910
723
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#4
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
There are 2 provisions for salvation.
( now watch the doctrinally confused attack that no brainer)

1) is TOTAL OBEDIENCE.
2) Is faith in Jesus and repentance.

If you bring in the concept of "provision" you can see the Faith/obedience components more clearly.
Now add in grace.( a gift not earned)
It actually is reverse of what most believe.
OT righteousness was through faith,in that somehow INNOCENT BLOOD did something.
But it looked way into the future to Jesus's innocent blood.
IOW. FAITH IN A MYSTERY.
They didn't understand it. They just set their hearts/eyes of faith to heaven in raw faith and walked forward.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,185
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#5
As far as our Salvation is concerned it is belief and faith...

Believe in the Word of Jesus
Have Faith ( trust) that the Atonement that Jesus secured by His death on the cross secures for us our eternal salvation..
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,026
2,879
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#6
As far as our Salvation is concerned it is belief and faith...

Believe in the Word of Jesus
Have Faith ( trust) that the Atonement that Jesus secured by His death on the cross secures for us our eternal salvation..
just so all will know- the o.p. thinks that one has to keep the Law / Sabbath to be saved.

so, when he speaks of obedience , this is what he means.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,185
1,965
113
#7
just so all will know- the o.p. thinks that one has to keep the Law / Sabbath to be saved.

so, when he speaks of obedience , this is what he means.
Well if someone believes they need to do the law then if they have broken the law just once they are doomed to be cast into the eternal lake of fire by their own preaching..

No one keeps the Law successfully.. therefore anyone who believes and preaches that doing the Law is needed to be saved has rejected the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ to Redeem and justify them and thus they will not have salvation..
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,910
723
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#8
Its interesting that Jesus purposefully BROKE their Sabbath. That was their main deal,that he broke the sabbath.
....and yes that he declared himself the Son of God.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,026
2,879
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#9
Well if someone believes they need to do the law then if they have broken the law just once they are doomed to be cast into the eternal lake of fire by their own preaching..

No one keeps the Law successfully.. therefore anyone who believes and preaches that doing the Law is needed to be saved has rejected the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ to Redeem and justify them and thus they will not have salvation..
yep, all true.

I just think it is very important to try to see why someone is saying something.

people will use words like " obedience " as code for " Sabbath ". I just try to point it out, if I have interacted with someone and have a grasp on their beliefs,

as I have done with the o.p.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
11,016
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#10
yep, all true.

I just think it is very important to try to see why someone is saying something.

people will use words like " obedience " as code for " Sabbath ". I just try to point it out, if I have interacted with someone and have a grasp on their beliefs,

as I have done with the o.p.
All of you need to lighten up. There is not a Sabbath keeper here that claims obedience to the law is what justifies them. We claim we are saved by grace just like everyone else. You want to attack us because we do something that you do not. If you are happy with your walk with Christ, good for you. We are happy with our walk with Christ also. Why does our faith offend you so much. :cool:
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#11
All of you need to lighten up. There is not a Sabbath keeper here that claims obedience to the law is what justifies them. We claim we are saved by grace just like everyone else. You want to attack us because we do something that you do not. If you are happy with your walk with Christ, good for you. We are happy with our walk with Christ also. Why does our faith offend you so much. :cool:
Sorry my friend, this is just plain and simply not true.

You may not, I do not remember, but there are some here who do.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,662
668
113
#12
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
Obedience is a requirement of faith. Faith without works is dead, being alone. Praise God we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ through His complete obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. The evidence of Christ's faith is the cross. Once saved, we live according to our faith.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,710
495
83
#13
just so all will know- the o.p. thinks that one has to keep the Law / Sabbath to be saved.

so, when he speaks of obedience , this is what he means.
So you all will know the OP believes in scripture and scripture tells us in Romans 3:24" By God's grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by Jesus."

The OP also believes in the 119th psalm, perhaps gb9 does not know there are other reasons to love the law than to gain salvation for themselves.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,710
495
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#14
Sorry my friend, this is just plain and simply not true.

You may not, I do not remember, but there are some here who do.
This post was in response to a post saying it was not true that Sabbath keepers posted it was required for salvation. This post is to say it is true some SKs made this statement.

I really don't want to be rude and this saying is rude, but it is so apt I can't resist.

Put up or shut up.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,911
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#15
I've often considered writing "Put up or shut up" in response to unsupported accusations. I agree: it is generally considered rude, but probably because we tend to think that "direct" is rude. Being direct is assertive, and most people don't like being called out. Anything which offends our tender feelings is considered "rude". That has led to political correctness, which is a load of d**g.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,377
3,079
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#16
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
SAVING FAITH = OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL

OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL RESULTS IN OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST
 

plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
445
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#17
faith is perfected or completed by obedience motivated by love.
God bless
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,935
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#18
This post was in response to a post saying it was not true that Sabbath keepers posted it was required for salvation. This post is to say it is true some SKs made this statement.

I really don't want to be rude and this saying is rude, but it is so apt I can't resist.

Put up or shut up.
Lol, Is this supposed to scare me?

All you have to do is look at all the sabbath preachers who claim salvation can be LOST if we are not obedient to the law. There are more than enough here that teach this..Do you?
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,933
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#19
Is it faith not obedience, obedience not faith, or faith and obedience? (That is the question the OP asks)

None of the above! A true faith exercises and shows itself through works -- but salvation is by faith, not by works.

Salvation, however is not by "faith alone" - for a true saving faith will manifest itself to some level of works.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,910
723
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#20
I know a while back i pointed out in a thread " in the christian walk your level of victory depends on your level of comitment" or something like that.
The attacks were incredible.
The "problem" with me is that i read my bible.
That is where i get stuff from,plus walking with God for 40 years.
One person in particular needed to be put on ignore.