IS MARY THE WOMAN IN REVELATION CHAPTER 12?

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Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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Exactly Jameen! Jesus was not caught up to God. The word "harpazo" translated as "caught up" is defined as "force suddenly exercised, a snatching up." In regards to this, Jesus was killed, crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to God's right hand. Therefore, Jesus does not fit the criteria...,.
Thank you Ahwatukee. I had never looked at it from this angle, I have one less "candidate" for this position now.

One thing we know now is that it is NOT Jesus. Its someone else. I still object to you making 1 individual symbolic of 144,000. That is a leap I would say?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Thank you Ahwatukee. I had never looked at it from this angle, I have one less "candidate" for this position now.

One thing we know now is that it is NOT Jesus. Its someone else. I still object to you making 1 individual symbolic of 144,000. That is a leap I would say?
Hello Hevosmies and thank you for your response. Regarding "I still object to you making 1 individual symbolic of 144,000," why do you have an issue with the Male Child being a collective name representing the 144,000? It is this group of 144,000 which scripture says "have not defiled themselves with women," which would make them all males, ergo, Male Child.

In addition, when Jesus asked the man of the Gadarenes what his name was, he said "Legion" for many demons had entered into him. Therefore the name "Legion" is an example of a singular name used to represent a collective number. It is the same here with the male child, which is a collective name used to represent the 144,000.

I hope this is beneficial.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Thank you Ahwatukee. I had never looked at it from this angle, I have one less "candidate" for this position now.

One thing we know now is that it is NOT Jesus. Its someone else. I still object to you making 1 individual symbolic of 144,000. That is a leap I would say?
In addition, I would also point out that "the bride" is also a collective name representing all believers within the church. Therefore, it should not be great leap to understand the "Male Child" as collectively representing the 144,000 who come out of (gives birth to) Israel.
 
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In addition, I would also point out that "the bride" is also a collective name representing all believers within the church. Therefore, it should not be great leap to understand the "Male Child" as collectively representing the 144,000 who come out of (gives birth to) Israel.
Its the leap that is required. The chaste virgin bride of Christ is in respect to the new creature. What we are is not that in which we will be when we receive our new bodies. They are described as neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile. But like the angels no procreation.

The scripture uses "two woman" in comparison. The strange woman, as the queen of heaven as those who chase after the god of this world like that of divorced Israel compared to the many lively stones that make up the spiritual house His bride as redeemed mankind.

Mankind one creation, unlike the other beast of the field he made them separately male and female

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27

The women represent the gods of this world .It not about men not being fruitful and not multiplying.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

The woman as a new creature pictured in Revelation 12 is the chaste virgin bride of Christ. She is shown with the Sun and the moon the two time keep under her feet. According to the context the previous chapter 11. It is the end of time. The saints have been called upward .Both those asleep in the bosom of Abraham (the invisible presence of God) and those that did remain on earth reigning with Christ )Its the final resurrection the last day. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.Revelation 11:12-15
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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No! The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is not the church. The last time the church is mentioned is at the very end of chapter 3, where Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up and which is supported by the fact that the word "church" is never used again after this.

The woman is representing Israel and her Male Child that she gives birth to are the 144,000 who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. This is the meaning of her figuratively giving birth, i.e., unbelieving Israel giving birth to 144,000 believing Israelites.
So real Israel Will not married with Jesus?

Seem to me Israel is the wife of God

Isaiah 54:5-17 King James Version (KJV)

5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.
 

Jackson123

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No, Jesus was not "caught up" to heaven by the description of the word "harpazo!" Below is the definition of the word translated "caught up."

"harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force"

Now based on the definition of the word, was Jesus snatched up to God's throne? And keep in mind, the Male Child was caught up before the dragon/Satan could kill him. Is that what happened to Jesus? No! Jesus was killed/crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to the right hand of God. Use your head!
Satan want to kill Jesus to kill the plan of salvation. But It is wrong, salvation is a product of the death If Jesus. So satan helping the plan of salvation, and Jesus only die in physical sense, the spirit of salvation still a life. So satan fail to kill the spirit of man child.
 

luigi

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Dec 6, 2015
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So real Israel Will not married with Jesus?

Seem to me Israel is the wife of God
You are correct, Israel is the wife of God, but is real Israel a bloodline, or a spiritual line?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Look what happens in Isaiah 65:11-15 to the unbelieving bloodline to whom the Lord is currently all day long pleading with to behold Him, and what happens to the Lords true spiritual servants.

Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name (Christian).
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;


Isaiah 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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So real Israel Will not married with Jesus?

Seem to me Israel is the wife of God

Isaiah 54:5-17 King James Version (KJV)

5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.
Hello Jackson123,

You are correct in that, Israel is the wife of God the Father. Notice that I said "wife." The bride is not yet a wife, but is betrothed to be married, a bride, which is figurative of the church. The wedding of the Lamb will take place in heaven some time after the church has been caught up. Understand then that a wife means that she is already married, where a bride is a betrothed to be married, a fiancé and is yet to be married. Observing the details is very important.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Satan want to kill Jesus to kill the plan of salvation. But It is wrong, salvation is a product of the death If Jesus. So satan helping the plan of salvation, and Jesus only die in physical sense, the spirit of salvation still a life. So satan fail to kill the spirit of man child.
The man child is caught up to God and His throne before the dragon/Satan can devour/kill it. When the dragon fails at killing the male child, he goes after the woman who will have given birth to the male child, but God also protects the woman by opening the earth and swallowing the river of water/army that the dragon/Satan sends after her. Jesus was not caught up, not did He escape, for he was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to God's right hand. Jesus does not fit the criteria of being the male child.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Hello Jackson123,

You are correct in that, Israel is the wife of God the Father. Notice that I said "wife." The bride is not yet a wife, but is betrothed to be married, a bride, which is figurative of the church. The wedding of the Lamb will take place in heaven some time after the church has been caught up. Understand then that a wife means that she is already married, where a bride is a betrothed to be married, a fiancé and is yet to be married. Observing the details is very important.
No! The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is not the church. The last time the church is mentioned is at the very end of chapter 3, where Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up and which is supported by the fact that the word "church" is never used again after this.

The woman is representing Israel and her Male Child that she gives birth to are the 144,000 who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. This is the meaning of her figuratively giving birth, i.e., unbelieving Israel giving birth to 144,000 believing Israelites.
If Israel wife, 144000 jews believer must be wife. And wife is woman, not man
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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The man child is caught up to God and His throne before the dragon/Satan can devour/kill it. When the dragon fails at killing the male child, he goes after the woman who will have given birth to the male child, but God also protects the woman by opening the earth and swallowing the river of water/army that the dragon/Satan sends after her. Jesus was not caught up, not did He escape, for he was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to God's right hand. Jesus does not fit the criteria of being the male child.
I think It is only language style. Because male is not fit as a wife nor bride.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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If Israel wife, 144000 jews believer must be wife. And wife is woman, not man
Jackson, it's just another figurative meaning. Israel is God's wife. The designation of Male Child is given for the 144,000 because they are all males. The church is made up of both men and women, yet one it is referred to as Christ's bride.

Don't get hung up on figurative meanings.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I think It is only language style. Because male is not fit as a wife nor bride.
Here is an example my friend: Jesus has many different designations, the Lamb, the sheep gate, eternal life, the Amen, Eternal Life, The Bread from Heaven, the Rock, etc., etc. Each of these designations are true descriptive characteristics of the Lord. Jesus because He is called by one it does not do away with the other. Now apply that to Israel, who is God's wife, yet Israel is made up of both male and female. Same with the church which is figuratively called the bride, yet it is made up of both men and women. The Male child is a figurative name for the 144,000 who in this case all males, because of them it is said "these are those who have not defiled themselves with women," which would make them all males. The 144,000 believing Israelites coming out of the woman who is unbelieving Israel is used figuratively as "giving birth," i.e. unbelieving Israel giving birth to believing Israel.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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You are correct, Israel is the wife of God, but is real Israel a bloodline, or a spiritual line?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Look what happens in Isaiah 65:11-15 to the unbelieving bloodline to whom the Lord is currently all day long pleading with to behold Him, and what happens to the Lords true spiritual servants.

Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name (Christian).
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;


Isaiah 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
More like spiritual line. Jew that not believe in God are not the wife of God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Jackson, it's just another figurative meaning. Israel is God's wife. The designation of Male Child is given for the 144,000 because they are all males. The church is made up of both men and women, yet one it is referred to as Christ's bride.

Don't get hung up on figurative meanings.
How do you know all 144000 are men?

Even If they are men, they are wife of God. Israel is wife of God, not all jews are woman.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,820
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Here is an example my friend: Jesus has many different designations, the Lamb, the sheep gate, eternal life, the Amen, Eternal Life, The Bread from Heaven, the Rock, etc., etc. Each of these designations are true descriptive characteristics of the Lord. Jesus because He is called by one it does not do away with the other. Now apply that to Israel, who is God's wife, yet Israel is made up of both male and female. Same with the church which is figuratively called the bride, yet it is made up of both men and women. The Male child is a figurative name for the 144,000 who in this case all males, because of them it is said "these are those who have not defiled themselves with women," which would make them all males. The 144,000 believing Israelites coming out of the woman who is unbelieving Israel is used figuratively as "giving birth," i.e. unbelieving Israel giving birth to believing Israel.
We are talking about figurative here, brother. Not defiled with woman not always man. Lesbian may woman defiled with woman, or If one worship idol or beast, bible call It adultery.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,147
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How do you know all 144000 are men?

Even If they are men, they are wife of God. Israel is wife of God, not all jews are woman.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps.

3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The "these" in the scripture above represent the 144,000 and it states that they have not been defied with women, which would infer that they are all males, ergo, the male child. The woman, Israel, gives birth to these 144,000 as believers in Christ. As I said in previous post, the woman giving birth is not speaking about literal child bearing but is figurative of these 144,000 coming out of unbelieving Israel. And when I say "unbelieving" I mean the unbelief of Jesus being their Messiah.

Therefore, the woman (unbelieving Israel) will give birth to a male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will believe in Christ as their Messiah and who will come out of the woman, Israel.

The idea of a woman giving birth is figurative for the 144,000 coming out of unbelieving Israel. The figurative meaning regarding a woman having birth pains figuratively represents distress or tribulation and is found in several places in scripture:

"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

"Ask and see: Can a male give birth? Why then do I see every man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor and every face turned pale?"

"Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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We are talking about figurative here, brother. Not defiled with woman not always man. Lesbian may woman defiled with woman, or If one worship idol or beast, bible call It adultery.
What makes you think that the 144,000 "not being defiled by woman" is figurative? If that was figurative then "no lie being in their mouths" would also have to be figurative, which it is not. This is based on a normal relationship between men and woman, not same-sex.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps.

3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The "these" in the scripture above represent the 144,000 and it states that they have not been defied with women, which would infer that they are all males, ergo, the male child. The woman, Israel, gives birth to these 144,000 as believers in Christ. As I said in previous post, the woman giving birth is not speaking about literal child bearing but is figurative of these 144,000 coming out of unbelieving Israel. And when I say "unbelieving" I mean the unbelief of Jesus being their Messiah.

Therefore, the woman (unbelieving Israel) will give birth to a male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will believe in Christ as their Messiah and who will come out of the woman, Israel.

The idea of a woman giving birth is figurative for the 144,000 coming out of unbelieving Israel. The figurative meaning regarding a woman having birth pains figuratively represents distress or tribulation and is found in several places in scripture:

"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

"Ask and see: Can a male give birth? Why then do I see every man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor and every face turned pale?"

"Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.
Like I say woman may defiled with woman, now lgbt is oN the rise.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Like I say woman may defiled with woman, now lgbt is oN the rise.
Do you actually think that God is going to put that in His word as a possibility? The reason that the verse is there as a clue that the 144,000 are all males. It has nothing to do with women being defiled by women. You're grasping at straws now!

However, I am done sharing the truth with you on this subject. I have told you who the woman is and who the male child is which is the truth. You are free to continue believing as you wish, but I'm not going to respond to you on this subject any more.