Is predestination that different that relativity in application?

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mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
211
63
#1
Is predestination that different that relativity in application?
Relativity is the the absence of absolute and predestination is absolute so either way are we not dissolved of the accountability we would have with free will?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,366
3,073
113
#2
Is predestination that different that relativity in application?
Relativity is the the absence of absolute and predestination is absolute so either way are we not dissolved of the accountability we would have with free will?
Are you trying to make a mishmash of physics, moral relativity, predestination, election, accountability and annihilationism into some kind of spiritual soup?

It ain't goin' to fly.

So what is your question precisely and clearly?

Is predestination for salvation or damnation biblical? NO

Do human beings have free will? YES

Must all humans eventually give account to God? ABSOLUTELY
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
211
63
#3
Are you trying to make a mishmash of physics, moral relativity, predestination, election, accountability and annihilationism into some kind of spiritual soup?

It ain't goin' to fly.

So what is your question precisely and clearly?

Is predestination for salvation or damnation biblical? NO

Do human beings have free will? YES

Must all humans eventually give account to God? ABSOLUTELY
Looks like your not as dumb as you pretended to be....
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
211
63
#6
And how is that relevant to your OP?
What that your not dumb? Honestly I think the majority of most people on here are quite intelligent and can understand a simple question and do not need simple sentences to get.... You figured it out....
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#7
Are you trying to make a mishmash of physics, moral relativity, predestination, election, accountability and annihilationism into some kind of spiritual soup?

It ain't goin' to fly.

So what is your question precisely and clearly?

Is predestination for salvation or damnation biblical? NO

Do human beings have free will? YES

Must all humans eventually give account to God? ABSOLUTELY
How would you explain the book of life and when Jesus said He would lose none that the Father gave Him, if it's not predestination
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,366
3,073
113
#8
How would you explain the book of life
When we go through the references to the book of life (also called the Lamb's Book of Life) we notice that those who fail to obey the Gospel and put their entire faith in God and Christ for salvation are "blotted out" or removed from the book of life.

IOW God desires the salvation of all humanity (hence everyone is originally in the book of life), but only those who respond to the Gospel with repentance and faith are saved, and therefore remain in the book of life (which would be the record of those with eternal life).

...and when Jesus said He would lose none that the Father gave Him, if it's not predestination
That is not predestination but eternal security. Children of God are eternally secure in Christ, therefore no one can pluck them out of the hands of God and Christ.

Predestination is for those who are already believers (justified ones). They are predestined to be perfected and glorified (Rom 8:29,30).
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
673
184
43
#9
Romans 9. 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h]21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Is this not predestination regarding Israel?
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#10
Sorry but I'm confused between those who have eternal security and those who fail to obey the gospel. Is it their choice to chose to believe or not not to believe. Or does God grant faith to one and causes the other not to believe. You can use the scriptures to support both views.
 
W

whatev

Guest
#11
What that your not dumb? Honestly I think the majority of most people on here are quite intelligent and can understand a simple question and do not need simple sentences to get.... You figured it out....
Ut-oh! I may have just lowered the standard on intelligence level for this community. I didn't understand the question. I'm reading this thread to see if anyone did, so maybe I could figure it out. By now, I'm losing hope, and feeling dumber in the effort. :confused:
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,064
323
83
#12
Is predestination that different that relativity in application?
Relativity is the the absence of absolute and predestination is absolute so either way are we not dissolved of the accountability we would have with free will?
If predestination is true and God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, there are some things to consider.

That means that God's kingdom is not true love, for the people that believe in the God of Israel, and confess Christ, do not truly love God but they have no choice but to obey the truth seeing no other alternative.

God is not evil that He would condemn people that have no choice in their salvation, for it would go against the nature of God.

Those that God chose would mean that their faith, their love, their hope, their confession of Christ, is not real for it did not come from them but from God.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and there is none that does good, no, not one, and if you offend in the least of the law then you offend in all, and what makes you to differ from another, and God is no respecter of persons, so why would God choose some and not others when all are sinners, and in the same boat.

The Bible says many are called but few are chosen, so if God chooses without the person having a choice, then why is God calling people that cannot be chosen, for He would only work in the lives of those He chose, for it would serve no purpose to work in the lives He did not choose.

God is the Savior of all men, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Lord is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance and be saved.

Jesus lights every person born in this world, so all people have the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

The Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody that wants salvation can have that salvation.

God commands everyone to repent, so why is He commanding all people to repent if it does not matter to the ones He did not choose.

All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So God wants all people to be saved, so God did not choose who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, so they should understand the Bible.

We did not choose God, but He chose us, and many are called, but few are chosen.

When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to open it for we have a choice, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth unless God was working in their life, so He chose us, but He does the calling and choosing on earth according to our response to truth.

The Bible says that the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, that everyone that name the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Which if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, they can abstain from sin by the Spirit.

And only a Spirit led life is sealed, and saved, but if they are led of the Spirit they would not sin.

And there is no excuse for sin because when they sin they enjoy it, for if they did not enjoy it they would not do the sin, so if they enjoy the sin they are doing it on purpose, so there is no excuse.

Also we have a choice between good and evil, so if they sin they could of chose the good, and nobody forced them to sin.

A lot of people are not trying to beat some sins but doing them on purpose thinking they are right with God.

The Bible says if a person holds unto sin the blood of Christ cannot wash that sin away.

And if it is true that we cannot abstain from sin, and we sin daily, then how can the blood of Christ wash away all our sins if we can never cease from sinning, for we would always have sin on our record.

Which the Bible says that some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, for they think that they are right with God even if they hold unto sin and will not let it go.

That is why many are called but few are chosen, for not everybody that confesses Christ wanted to give up some sins, but wanted to hold unto some sins and think they are right with God, and said they could not stop it even though the Bible says by the Spirit they can stop the sin.

The saints are predestined to salvation means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world, and this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation.

For God is love, and His kingdom love, and He is not evil, and He could not judge the wicked for their sins if He chose them in the beginning to not be saved, for they did not have the choice to obey the truth.

All that predestination is about people wanting to believe things according to the flesh that produces many hypocrites, which causes the world to say those hypocrites, and the Bible says give no offense in anything that the ministry be not blamed.
 
W

whatev

Guest
#13
If predestination is true and God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, there are some things to consider.

That means that God's kingdom is not true love, for the people that believe in the God of Israel, and confess Christ, do not truly love God but they have no choice but to obey the truth seeing no other alternative.

God is not evil that He would condemn people that have no choice in their salvation, for it would go against the nature of God.

Those that God chose would mean that their faith, their love, their hope, their confession of Christ, is not real for it did not come from them but from God.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and there is none that does good, no, not one, and if you offend in the least of the law then you offend in all, and what makes you to differ from another, and God is no respecter of persons, so why would God choose some and not others when all are sinners, and in the same boat.

The Bible says many are called but few are chosen, so if God chooses without the person having a choice, then why is God calling people that cannot be chosen, for He would only work in the lives of those He chose, for it would serve no purpose to work in the lives He did not choose.

God is the Savior of all men, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Lord is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance and be saved.

Jesus lights every person born in this world, so all people have the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

The Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody that wants salvation can have that salvation.

God commands everyone to repent, so why is He commanding all people to repent if it does not matter to the ones He did not choose.

All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So God wants all people to be saved, so God did not choose who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice, so they should understand the Bible.

We did not choose God, but He chose us, and many are called, but few are chosen.

When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to open it for we have a choice, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth unless God was working in their life, so He chose us, but He does the calling and choosing on earth according to our response to truth.

The Bible says that the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, that everyone that name the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Which if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, they can abstain from sin by the Spirit.

And only a Spirit led life is sealed, and saved, but if they are led of the Spirit they would not sin.

And there is no excuse for sin because when they sin they enjoy it, for if they did not enjoy it they would not do the sin, so if they enjoy the sin they are doing it on purpose, so there is no excuse.

Also we have a choice between good and evil, so if they sin they could of chose the good, and nobody forced them to sin.

A lot of people are not trying to beat some sins but doing them on purpose thinking they are right with God.

The Bible says if a person holds unto sin the blood of Christ cannot wash that sin away.

And if it is true that we cannot abstain from sin, and we sin daily, then how can the blood of Christ wash away all our sins if we can never cease from sinning, for we would always have sin on our record.

Which the Bible says that some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, for they think that they are right with God even if they hold unto sin and will not let it go.

That is why many are called but few are chosen, for not everybody that confesses Christ wanted to give up some sins, but wanted to hold unto some sins and think they are right with God, and said they could not stop it even though the Bible says by the Spirit they can stop the sin.

The saints are predestined to salvation means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world, and this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation.

For God is love, and His kingdom love, and He is not evil, and He could not judge the wicked for their sins if He chose them in the beginning to not be saved, for they did not have the choice to obey the truth.

All that predestination is about people wanting to believe things according to the flesh that produces many hypocrites, which causes the world to say those hypocrites, and the Bible says give no offense in anything that the ministry be not blamed.
If I take care of my children by giving them a place to live, giving them food in their bellies, clothes to wear, I encourage them in their good choices and discourage them in their bad choices, and work at raising them up to be good people in the world, does that mean I hate all children?

And where was the choice for my children? I don't know any parent who asked the newborns if they'd like to come home with them and be part of the family. Should we give a child the right to choose if they will be members of our home? How scary would that be to grow up thinking I get to choose if I will love my parents on any given day, because they're choosing to love me based on how I act that day? I was a snotty, bad-legs, peeing, pooping, crying baby. I can see where most parents would easily give up their children if love were purely a momentary choice. Especially on Monday morning, having to go to work in a couple hours after woken up again that night to feed the little dirty-diapered, crying, mucus-spewing baby.

Because that is what it sounds like your saying about God. I love God because he first loved me.
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
211
63
#14
If I take care of my children by giving them a place to live, giving them food in their bellies, clothes to wear, I encourage them in their good choices and discourage them in their bad choices, and work at raising them up to be good people in the world, does that mean I hate all children?

And where was the choice for my children? I don't know any parent who asked the newborns if they'd like to come home with them and be part of the family. Should we give a child the right to choose if they will be members of our home? How scary would that be to grow up thinking I get to choose if I will love my parents on any given day, because they're choosing to love me based on how I act that day? I was a snotty, bad-legs, peeing, pooping, crying baby. I can see where most parents would easily give up their children if love were purely a momentary choice. Especially on Monday morning, having to go to work in a couple hours after woken up again that night to feed the little dirty-diapered, crying, mucus-spewing baby.

Because that is what it sounds like your saying about God. I love God because he first loved me.
No, what I'm saying is the exact opposite. A father molest his daughter as a 1-3 and when she is ten rapes her. Relativity says I answer to no one; my actions are relative. Predestination says that father was not predestined to answer to anyone because he was not predestined to be saved. Choice says at any time he can/ could have repented became a new creature in Messiah and be saved.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,408
584
113
29
#15
No, what I'm saying is the exact opposite. A father molest his daughter as a 1-3 and when she is ten rapes her. Relativity says I answer to no one; my actions are relative. Predestination says that father was not predestined to answer to anyone because he was not predestined to be saved. Choice says at any time he can/ could have repented became a new creature in Messiah and be saved.
God doesn't create monsters, they become monsters. How this happens can be explained through many facets of reality, circumstance, and experiences (such as suffering, pain, etc). God's foreknowledge of the future doesn't make people predestined to evil, He just witnesses the birth of them. It would be no different than you watching a recording of an event, and when you hit play it is not like you're guilty of the content of the video. All actions were done individually, within their free will.

Does God divinely intervene in certain circumstances? Yes. He may know that danger is ahead and warn you, and if you obey, you will avoid the danger. His foreknowledge is a blessing to us, as He cares for us and is our provider. Our protector.

Went off on a tangent there, but anyways, to summarize God knows the future, but is not the causal factor of individual actions, thereby accrediting fault to Him. No, He observes their actions, that they themselves are committing irrespective of God. Scripture says "let no man say that God tempts me" for example. He tempts no man. God knowing you will be tempted doesn't make Him the one tempting you just as God knowing a person will sin doesn't mean He made them sin.
 
W

whatev

Guest
#16
No, what I'm saying is the exact opposite. A father molest his daughter as a 1-3 and when she is ten rapes her. Relativity says I answer to no one; my actions are relative. Predestination says that father was not predestined to answer to anyone because he was not predestined to be saved. Choice says at any time he can/ could have repented became a new creature in Messiah and be saved.
Considering Saul was on the road to kill Jesus followers when the Lord came and changed him to Paul, I don't understand why you give predestined or choice as two separate, always divided, choices.

Since predestination and choice do not say what you say they say, and relativity seems like a post-modern philosophical device, I still don't get your argument.