Is sin wrong because God says? or because it in itself is wrong?

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sf11change

Guest
#1
#1
Philosophical question for you all:
Do you think that God is the one that determines good from evil? or that good and evil exist and he encompasses all that is good? I believe Socrates brought this up so it's not a new thing, I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks? Are things good because they in themselves are GOOD? or because God says they are good? and are things sins because they are wrong? or because God says they are wrong?

I am of the mind that there are natural consequences that logically show us that things are good and evil.. For example, when you lie to people, they get hurt, it causes trust issues, it ruins relationships... On top of that, God has a consequence as well.. but I think that you could logically argue with people outside of Christianity by showing how each 'sin' has a natural consequence outside of God's consequences..

Any thoughts on that?
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#2
Feb 12, 2009
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Simply put evil and sin are the polar opposite of God's Holiness. So evil defines itself as setting itself in opposition to God, namely through pride. Sin is to do anything that is against the Holy Standard required by God.

Of course the greatest consequence of sin is God's wrath.

Ask yourself this question: when sin is committed who is the most offended party.. you, someone else or God?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3
#3
sf11change said:
Philosophical question for you all:
Do you think that God is the one that determines good from evil? or that good and evil exist and he encompasses all that is good? I believe Socrates brought this up so it's not a new thing, I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks? Are things good because they in themselves are GOOD? or because God says they are good? and are things sins because they are wrong? or because God says they are wrong?

I am of the mind that there are natural consequences that logically show us that things are good and evil.. For example, when you lie to people, they get hurt, it causes trust issues, it ruins relationships... On top of that, God has a consequence as well.. but I think that you could logically argue with people outside of Christianity by showing how each 'sin' has a natural consequence outside of God's consequences..

Any thoughts on that?
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God created us, He knows how we work, He created our society, He knows how that works. He knows anything which goes outside of his intended design for mankind will cause pain and suffering. He also created us so he could be our God and he could take care of us. When we rebelled and went against him, we chose to ignore him, and become our own God. This is why ALL sin causes death. (if you break even the least of Gods commands, you are guilty of the whole law)

God is also a Holy, Righteous and just God, He demanded a payment for sin, and that payment was death.
 
Thomas60

Thomas60

Banned
#4
Jun 20, 2010
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Euthyphro Dilemma!
Funnily enough, nobody's answered it in the thread yet.

If you could argue that position sf11, you would be talking on my level
 
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sf11change

Guest
#5
#5
Thomas60 said:
Euthyphro Dilemma!
Funnily enough, nobody's answered it in the thread yet.

If you could argue that position sf11, you would be talking on my level
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Yes! thank you .. I couldn't remember where it was from..

"Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"
 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
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Dec 19, 2009
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sf11change said:
Philosophical question for you all:
Do you think that God is the one that determines good from evil? or that good and evil exist and he encompasses all that is good? I believe Socrates brought this up so it's not a new thing, I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks? Are things good because they in themselves are GOOD? or because God says they are good? and are things sins because they are wrong? or because God says they are wrong?

I am of the mind that there are natural consequences that logically show us that things are good and evil.. For example, when you lie to people, they get hurt, it causes trust issues, it ruins relationships... On top of that, God has a consequence as well.. but I think that you could logically argue with people outside of Christianity by showing how each 'sin' has a natural consequence outside of God's consequences..

Any thoughts on that?
Click to expand...
Sin is acts of selfishness. Acts of selfishness cause destruction. The Lord recognized this and created a law warning us not to commit these acts.
 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
#7
Dec 19, 2009
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#7
In other words, the law was meant to help us, not to hurt us.
 
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sf11change

Guest
#8
#8
I'm not sure I'm the best one to be arguing this position but I can give it a shot I suppose...

I lean towards the first part of Socrates' question... Things are good inherently, not just because God says so.. I think that sins are declared by God because he has his own judicial system for good and evil. And from Romans 6:23 we know, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

But even in the beginning, there was only good on earth.. and yet God made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.. So there was knowledge of good and evil that God already had but we didn't.. until Adam and Eve ate from the tree and then they were made aware of evil..

There are a lot of weird and funny laws in the old testament that are really just for that time period.. whether it be for hygiene purposes or certain rituals that are no longer required of us because of Jesus' death on the Cross... so I'm going to ignore those ones to discuss and focus on ones still relevant today..

I'll go through the 10 Commandments and tell you all the natural consequences I can think of for each.
1) You shall have no other gods before me. - when you worship more than one god, which god trumps the other if they have 2 different views on things? It's like with parents, if one says no and you go and ask the other and they say yes, it's dishonest.. and hurts everyone in the situation...

2) Not allowed to have idols - for one thing, when you idolize things or people, it takes up your time and your energy and most of the time idols give nothing back to you.. So you waste your money and your time for nothing..

3) Can't misuse the name of God - when you say things like "oh my God" or "for Christ's sake" it's like swearing, and it changes you with repeated use.. At least in my own experience, if I'm careful with what I say, I don't hurt or offend people, and I'm just a better person..

4) Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy - If you look at America vs. countries that actually VALUE their days off, it is like night and day... In North America we continue to increase our numbers of stress-related illnesses and life-threatening issues (blood pressure, heart attacks, etc.) .. It's important to rest. It's important to have days that you don't work so that you can enjoy life..

5) Honor your father and mother - My parents love this one... I work with kids all the time that have no discipline at home.. and they don't listen to their parents, so why would they ever respect their teachers? or in the future, their bosses? .. Respecting your parents and doing what they say trains you to get through life.. It ALSO protects you from dying or injuries when you're a kid.. "don't use the knife like that, you'll cut your hand off" or "don't touch the stove, it's hot" .. or whatever..

6) You shall not murder - well that's obvious, if murder was okay, life would be chaos.. Murder changes the murderer too... unless they are a sociopath..

7) You shall not commit adultery - Obviously adultery in marriage is devastating to the marriage.. creating trust issues, insecurity, anger, resentment, etc... but even to extend this to all forms of sex outside of marriage... how do you think STDs were created? God designed sex for a man and a woman who were married... if every single person on earth from the beginning of time honoured God's design for sex, we would not have STDs or pregnancies outside of committed relationships.. Not as scary with 2 people.. Unless you're having sextuplets or something :) haha..

8) You shall not steal - It hurts others.. it could be something they really cared about or worked really hard for.. If you get caught, it's embarrassing and could possibly mean you lose your job or your computer, or other things, depending on what you stole.. if you steal money or information you could go to jail...

9) You shall not give false testimony (lie) - another thing you could go to jail for, depending on where you lie.. if you lie to your partner or your family it causes trust issues, and hurt feelings and resentment..
10) You shall not covet your neighbor's possessions - This one I think of more as greed.. or continuing to want what you don't have.. It's just a miserable way to live.. To always strive for something and never be happy with what you have.. if it's family - they feel that, if it's money - you're never going to have enough, etc.. You're just never going to be happy with your life and you will be a miserable person to be around.. like those people that are always complaining about everything.. the other thing is, if you continue to dwell on it, (in extreme cases) it can drive you to do things you shouldn't do... like steal or murder..


So to sum up.. Thinking totally outside of God's plan and how he feels about sin... Sin in itself is bad.. There are consequences outside of God's consequences that prove that..

But then there's the question, is sin the absence of good? and is evil the absence of God? and then my head starts to hurt.... someone else can try that one!
 
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EverlastingChange

Guest
#9
#9
Because God said so; But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" - Romans 9:20
 
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Gentile

Guest
#10
#10
"Sin", a refusal to believe the Word of God.

Sin is unbelief.
 
trust_in_the_name

trust_in_the_name

Banned
#11
Jan 18, 2011
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God is good, righteous, just, and holy. These are attributes that are a part of His eternal, unchanging nature. So, they aren't something that God makes up on the fly, or defines on a whim. Although they are defined by God, according to His nature, something isn't good simply because God did it -- God did it because it was good, and it is good because it accords with His eternal standard of goodness, which is a part of who He is. Something is wrong not because God says it is wrong -- God says it is wrong because it is contrary to His standard, which is a part of His nature and the ultimate source of goodness.

If we define sin as anything that is against the will of God, then we can conclude that God cannot sin -- not because He is unable to do so, but by definition: logically, that which God does is that which is according to His will, not that which is contrary to it, for

3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (Psalm 115:3)

God does whatever He pleases, so He acts according to His will.

We also know that God cannot lie,

2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, (Titus 1:2)

We can therefore conclude that lying is not something that God wants to do; lying would not be doing what He pleases.

There is no darkness in God,

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)

Darkness is a reference to evil: there is no evil in God. So, God does whatever He pleases, but there is no evil in Him, and therefore what He does, that which He pleases, is good, not evil.

7 For the Lord is righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright. (Psalm 11:7)

5 The Lord is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame. (Zephaniah 3:5)

There is a difference between God doing something and a person doing it. God kills, for example, but we are commanded not to kill.

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)

God exists on a level far beyond our comprehension. His ability to make judgments about what is right or wrong is not limited in the way ours is, and therefore His actions are not limited in the way ours are.

30 As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him. (Psalm 18:30)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#12
#12
resurrection33 said:
In other words, the law was meant to help us, not to hurt us.
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YES! For if we listen to the law, it will lead us to Christ. and this will lead to eternal life!
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#13
Dec 19, 2009
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#13
resurrection33 said:
Sin is acts of selfishness. Acts of selfishness cause destruction. The Lord recognized this and created a law warning us not to commit these acts.
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I would say the true sin of the true Christian is in not looking to Christ and trusting him

For if in our hearts we look to Christ and trust him in our lives to change us and make us through the sanctification of the spirit all the Father would have us be we are not looking to satisy the flesh/sin. Therefore sin is not taken into account

It is when we look away from Christ and trusting him and wilfully turn to the flesh we commit true sin that we must then come to God in sincere repentance for what we have done and ask his forgiveness

Christ said

In regard to sin because men do not believe in me
John 16:9

I believe that goes for the Christian too.
 
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