Is the Angel of the Lord the preincarnate Christ?

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Mark_L

New member
Jan 30, 2021
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#1
So, I was reading Zechariah 1 and I came across the vision of the Angel of the Lord. He shows up many times in scripture, and seems to speak for(or as) God at times. In the particular passage I mentioned, it also called the Angel a man. Plus, he was the leader of the masses behind them. He proceeded to intercede for Israel and then speak for God. So, here is my question, is the Angel of the Lord the preincarnate Christ? We know that Christ is both God and man, he is the revelation of the Father, and that he intercedes for his people. Perhaps I am drawing lines where there are none, but it would make sense to me. Thanks!
 

Suna

New member
May 21, 2021
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#2
So, I was reading Zechariah 1 and I came across the vision of the Angel of the Lord. He shows up many times in scripture, and seems to speak for(or as) God at times. In the particular passage I mentioned, it also called the Angel a man. Plus, he was the leader of the masses behind them. He proceeded to intercede for Israel and then speak for God. So, here is my question, is the Angel of the Lord the preincarnate Christ? We know that Christ is both God and man, he is the revelation of the Father, and that he intercedes for his people. Perhaps I am drawing lines where there are none, but it would make sense to me. Thanks!
Shalom.

The Angel of the Lord is not the preincarnate Christ.
The Angel of the Lord is an angel who expressed God to Israel in the name of Jehovah in the Old Testament.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#3
Welcome to the forums Suna. On what basis do you know that the angel of the Lord is not the preincarnate Christ? Did you do any Biblical research that would support your opinion?

In Him,
bluto
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,881
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#4
Most of what one will find by doing a "search" on the Angel of the Lord will show various peoples presenting the argument that this Angel is Jesus in a temporary manifestation.....

IDK if I agree with them or not.... There are Scriptures they use to justify their position, and, on the surface, they appear to be well grounded........HOWEVER......

I get the uncomfortable feeling (when reading their arguments) that they are speaking against the Holy Trinity. As if they are arguing that Jesus was "created" by God, and NOT the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. Not saying this is their position, just saying that is the feeling I get when reading their arguments......

I've seen people here say that Melchizedek is Jesus as well, and I DO NOT believe that....so, I'll just wait until I can ask Jesus Himself if this "Angle of the Lord" spoken of in the Old Testament was Him...... :)

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT MELCHIZEDEK
 

DeanM

Well-known member
May 4, 2021
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#5
Some angel of the lord appearances say he had the face of God. I believe it could be the preincarnate Christ. Many people were a type of Christ as well. Joseph comes to mind.
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
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#6
The Angel of the Lord in the Burning Bush told Moses He was Moses' father, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob Elohim and His Name was I Am.

Verse 2 claims Angel of the Lord:
2 An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed.
בוַיֵּרָ֠א מַלְאַ֨ךְ יְהֹוָ֥ה אֵלָ֛יו בְּלַבַּת־אֵ֖שׁ מִתּ֣וֹךְ הַסְּנֶ֑ה וַיַּ֗רְא וְהִנֵּ֤ה הַסְּנֶה֙ בֹּעֵ֣ר בָּאֵ֔שׁ וְהַסְּנֶ֖ה אֵינֶ֥נּוּ אֻכָּֽל:


Verse 4 claims it is the Lord:
4 The Lord saw that he had turned to see, and Elohim called to him from within the thorn bush, and He said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am!"
דוַיַּ֥רְא יְהֹוָ֖ה כִּ֣י סָ֣ר לִרְא֑וֹת וַיִּקְרָא֩ אֵלָ֨יו אֱלֹהִ֜ים מִתּ֣וֹךְ הַסְּנֶ֗ה וַיֹּ֛אמֶר משֶׁ֥ה משֶׁ֖ה וַיֹּ֥אמֶר הִנֵּֽנִי:


Verse 6 the Angel of the Lord, now Lord, claims to be Elohim:
6 And He said, "I am the Elohim of your father, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward Elohim.
ווַיֹּ֗אמֶר אָֽנֹכִי֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י אָבִ֔יךָ אֱלֹהֵ֧י אַבְרָהָ֛ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֖ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֣י יַֽעֲקֹ֑ב וַיַּסְתֵּ֤ר משֶׁה֙ פָּנָ֔יו כִּ֣י יָרֵ֔א מֵֽהַבִּ֖יט אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִֽים:


Verse 14 the Angel of the Lord, now Lord, now Elohim, claims to be I AM THAT I AM:
14 Elohim said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


In 3 chapters later this same Angel of the Lord, now Lord, now Elohim named I AM THAT I AM reveals His other name:
2 Elohim spoke to Moses, and He said to him, "I am the Lord.
בוַיְדַבֵּ֥ר אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶל־משֶׁ֑ה וַיֹּ֥אמֶר אֵלָ֖יו אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָֽה:

3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob with [the name] Almighty Elohim, but [with] My name YHWH, I did not become known to them.
גוָֽאֵרָ֗א אֶל־אַבְרָהָ֛ם אֶל־יִצְחָ֥ק וְאֶל־יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב בְּאֵ֣ל שַׁדָּ֑י וּשְׁמִ֣י יְהֹוָ֔ה לֹ֥א נוֹדַ֖עְתִּי לָהֶֽם:


So from these 6 Verses, the Pre-Incarnate Christ in the Book of Exodus is known as:
1. Angel of the Lord
2. Lord
3. Elohim
4. I AM THAT I AM
5. YHWH
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#7
So, I was reading Zechariah 1 and I came across the vision of the Angel of the Lord. He shows up many times in scripture, and seems to speak for(or as) God at times. In the particular passage I mentioned, it also called the Angel a man. Plus, he was the leader of the masses behind them. He proceeded to intercede for Israel and then speak for God. So, here is my question, is the Angel of the Lord the preincarnate Christ? We know that Christ is both God and man, he is the revelation of the Father, and that he intercedes for his people. Perhaps I am drawing lines where there are none, but it would make sense to me. Thanks!
remember the Spirit of Christ is an Eternal part of the Godhead. The Angel of the Lord, who we see in scripture that 1. received worship 2. spoke as God 3. was Called Lord.

The limited understanding of God by man and the move of God through the " Angel of the Lord", show us this angel was not just a messenger. WE see this because in each case they called this Angel Lord and worshiped HIM..

In the Book of Revelation John fell down and the angel there told him do not to do that. In the case of Josuha, Jacob, and Abraham and Moses none of them were told to stop BUT take off your shoes for you are on Holy Ground.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,756
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#8
Shalom.

The Angel of the Lord is not the pre-incarnate Christ.
The Angel of the Lord is an angel who expressed God to Israel in the name of Jehovah in the Old Testament.
I decided to withdraw my downvote because your a new member here and I acted in haste without my morning coffee. The first thing you should know is that the angel of the Lord is "NOT" an actual angel like Michael or Gabriel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and the word simply means messenger. The context determines how the word is to be understood.

For example at Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord or hosts."

The first angel in this verse is John the Baptist. Of course John is not an angel but a messenger. This is confirmed at Mark 1:-4. So who is the second "angle" who is identified as the "messenger" of the covenant? And lastly, who is it that we will delight in, the one coming? I will get to the messenger of the covenant shortly. Btw, as a side note the prophet "Malachi's" name is taken from the Hebrew word "malak." And one more thing should be said. The angel of the Lord is NOT Michael the arc angel as the JW's teach. The angel of the Lord is not Melchizedek nor is Jesus Melchizedek as some teach.

The following is an article I wrote on this subject.

The angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7 and appears (physically) to Hagar, Sarai's maid. (vs8). At vs9 he says to Hagar to return to Sarai and submit to her authority. At vs10 the angel of the Lord says, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count." He also tells her that she is with child and he will be named Ishmael.

At vs13 she says, "Thou art a God who sees, for she said, "Have I even remained alive after seeing Him." At Genesis 17:1-2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, (This is a physical appearance by the Lord), I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will greatly multiply you exceedingly."

So here's the question? Is the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16 who multiplied Hagar's descendants the same "being" who multiplied Abram descendants at Genesis 17:1-2? When we get to Genesis 18 it says at vs1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abram by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." When Abram looked up he saw three men, vs2. One of the men was the angel of the Lord and the other two were actual angels in the form of men.

To make a long story short Abram learns that the Lord God is going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because their sin is great, vs20. The Lord and Abram go back and forth about will God destroy the righteous with the wicked, vs25. At vs33, "And as soon as He/the Lord had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed; and Abraham returned to his place. At Genesis 19:1, "Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot say them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground."

Righteous Lot was warned about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and he left. Like at Genesis 18:25, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?" He sure did. At this point is should be said that the angel of the Lord is "NOT" Michael the arc angel as some teach, like the Jehovah Witnesses. This can be proven by going to Genesis 22, the best part about the angel of the Lord.

At Genesis 22:1, God test Abraham by him offering his son Isaac. Genesis 22:10-11, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. vs11, But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Vs12, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me." (Btw, Abraham did have other sons).

Jumping to vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore, and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

Some observations? Why does the angel of the Lord call out from heaven two times when the Lord God Himself calls out from heaven at other places in the Bible? And here's the bigger observation. If the angel of the Lord is an actual angel or Michael the arc angel, it should be noted that angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. In fact, you or I cannot swear an oath on behalf of somebody else. For example, if you saw a crime and were ask to testify in a court of law you cannot send your uncle harry in your place to testify what you personally saw.

But here's the kicker? Look at Hebrews 6:13-14, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF." vs14, "saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." No one, including angels can swear an oath on behalf of God because no one is greater than God Himself.

It is vitally important that God the Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is known of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father (John 1:1,18; John 10:30; John 12:45; Colossians 1:5; Hebrews 1:3). Oops, I almost forgot about Luke 1:72-73, "To show mercy toward our fathers, And to REMEMBER His holy covenant, vs73, "The oath which He swore to Abraham our father." PS: This post is also for Mark L who started this thread. I will be happy to address any questions or concerns you might have.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

DeanM

Well-known member
May 4, 2021
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#9
The second chapter of Luke says an angel of the Lord came to the shepards with the news of Christs birth. Granted thats from the NT but may help some.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,756
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#10
Thanks for your question DeanM? "THE" angel of the Lord, i.e Jesus Christ NEVER appears in the New Testament as the angel of the Lord. The reason is because according to Hebrews 1:1-2, specifically vs2, "in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." In other words, His appearances in the Old Testament were temporary and He functioned mainly as a "mediator" for Israel.

Secondly, and more interesting (since you mentioned Luke 2:9) where it says, "And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them etc." There is a difference between the actual word "a" or "an" and the word "the." The chief grammatical function of "a' or"an" is to connote a thing not previously noted or recognized, while "the" connoates a thing previously noted or recognized.

If you go through the verses in the Old Testament where "the" angel of the Lord is mentioned he does things that only God can do. He multiplies Hagar's descendants at Genesis 16:10. Hagar at Genesis 16:13 says she saw God and lived to tell about it. Notice at Genesis 17:1-2 where it says God appeared to Abram claiming to be God Almighty and at vs2 says, "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." Remember I quoted Malachi 3:1 and said who is the angel/messenger of the covenant?

Now, the angel of the Lord is mentioned in the New Testament by Stephen at Acts 7. He uses the word "an" at vs 30 but he explains to the Jews who he was at Acts 7:38. Also someone rightly quoted Exodus 3 and the angel of the Lord appearing in the burning bush claiming to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at Exodus 3:6. Anything else you want to know Dean?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#11
So, I was reading Zechariah 1 and I came across the vision of the Angel of the Lord. He shows up many times in scripture, and seems to speak for(or as) God at times. In the particular passage I mentioned, it also called the Angel a man. Plus, he was the leader of the masses behind them. He proceeded to intercede for Israel and then speak for God. So, here is my question, is the Angel of the Lord the preincarnate Christ? We know that Christ is both God and man, he is the revelation of the Father, and that he intercedes for his people. Perhaps I am drawing lines where there are none, but it would make sense to me. Thanks!
Angels are created beings..

Jesus is not a created being..

Jesus is not and never was an Angel..
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#12
The second chapter of Luke says an angel of the Lord came to the shepards with the news of Christs birth. Granted thats from the NT but may help some.
the word angel is angolos = messager Angel of the lord in Hebrew??? is much the same until you place the word LORD after it and worship
 

DeanM

Well-known member
May 4, 2021
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#13
the word angel is angolos = messager Angel of the lord in Hebrew??? is much the same until you place the word LORD after it and worship
Thats my point a the of the Lord in Luke couldnt have been Christ as he was at the time born.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
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#14
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." - Philippians 2:5-8 KJV

Phil 2:5-8 depicts a true form of Jesus Christ that was then "made in the likeness of man"

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." - Romans 8:2-4 KJV

Rom 8:2-4 also has a depiction of Christ being "sent in the likeness of flesh"

"And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light." - Matthew 7:1-2 KJV


Mat 7:2 depicts Christ in a transfigured form. We see something similar to this in Revelation. The depiction of Christ in Revelation is consistent with a being that an OT individual talked to. The KJV also translates a passage in the OT as "Son of God" in capitals.

It's not far-fetched to contend that the OT references Christ in a form prior to being made into human likeness.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,881
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#17
and the angel of the Lord appearing in the burning bush claiming to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at Exodus 3:6
?
Was not the question in the OP concerning Jesus and not God? Applying this thought, the Angle of the Lord is God Himself, and not Jesus (2nd Person of the Trinity), right?
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#18
Here are his words. "We know that Christ is both God and man, he is the revelation of the Father, and that he intercedes for his people." Like he said, "We know that Christ is both God and man," The Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the ONLY manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is known of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father. Please read John 1:1, 18; 10:30; 12;45; Colossians 1:15; and Hebrews 1:3.

And according to John 4:24, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth." This means that God is a spiritual being. Not only that but Jesus Himself said at 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." Also John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hast seen/declared the Father.

Now, getting back to my presentation, (my two post), can you please show me where I am wrong on anything I stated as it concerns the angel of the Lord?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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Oregon
#19
.
Christ is an eternal, but was his human form created?
It's very easy to prove that Jesus was biologically related to Adam;
beginning with Gen 3:15 which says:

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring
and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Most everyone, on both sides of the aisle, agrees that verse predicts Jesus.

And then there's Rom 1:3 which says:

"Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to
the flesh"

The Greek word for "seed" in that passage is sperma (sper' mah) which is a
bit ambiguous because it can refer to biological reproduction and/or spiritual
reproduction.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that the passage below is speaking of
spiritual reproduction.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according
to the promise." (Gal 3:29)

But Rom 1:3 is definitely speaking of biological reproduction because the
seed is according to the flesh, i.e. David's body.

Seeing as how David got his body from Adam via Eve (Gen 3:20), then
Jesus is Adam's biological progeny because Eve's body was constructed
from material taken from Adam's body (Gen 3:21-23) hence any and all of
Eve's biological posterity, whether natural-born or virgin-born, is Adam's
biological posterity.

So then; was the Old Testament's angel of The Lord actually a so-called
pre incarnate Jesus? No; if anything, the angel of The Lord was a pre
incarnate voice of God, i.e. the Word. (John 1:1-3 and John 1:14)

NOTE: Most Christians will readily attest that Jesus is fully God and fully
Man; but in reality, they only believe he's fully God because in order to be
fully Man, Jesus would have to be one of Adam's biological descendants.
Well; Adam was a created being, ergo: his biological descendants are all
created beings too.

How can someone exist as a created being and as an eternal being
simultaneously? Well; that is one of Christianity's mysteries too complex for
me to even understand, let alone explain.
_
 

DeanM

Well-known member
May 4, 2021
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#20
The book of Luke also traces Christs genealogy back to Adam.