Is the church universal or a called out local assembly?

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C

cornerstone

Guest
#1
Most people believe that the church is made up of all the saved but how does a universal body discipline, how does it ever come into the unity of faith the Bible talks about when there is so much doctrinal differences out there. All the churches in the Bible (plural) were local churches. How can you add 5000 to the church if the church is already made up of all the saved? Paul told the Corinthian church to withdraw themselves from the man who was committing adultery in their congregation. How can the church remove or withdraw themselves for anyone if all the saved make up the church. And his bride is going to be presented to Christ unblemished, if all are Christians are in the church and the church is the bride of Christ, who are the guests at the wedding? I have too many questions to come to the conclusion that all are in the church. Any comments?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#2
Well on a bigger level, whole churches have withdrawn from denominations when the denomination has grown corrupt. That could happen.
Most local church bodies don't discipline today anyway, and there is a big vareity of beliefs within each member of a local congregation, even a small group of 5 people. I've personally always taken the church to mean the body of believers everywhere in a spiritual sense (whoever has the Holy Spirit). The church exists and is based on relationship to Christ and with each other through Christ like one big family. But relationship does not always mean fellowship.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#3
Wow.. another person who thinks the universal church notion is maybe unscriptural!

You got another person here who believes teh body of Christ is a local assembly!

You wouldn't by any chance happen to be independent baptist? Independent Missionary Baptist?

I have done a thread on this one before..

body of Christ.. not the literal body of Christ.. but body as in group.. gathering.. meeting.. assembly.. congregation.. and this is singular standing for plural.. like..

'the dog'

this means all indivdual dogs.. not a universal dog :)

'the post office'

all individual post offices.. not a universal post office :)

'the bar'

this means--- the tavern/bar down the road :)

singular standing for plural

every believer living and dead-- is in the Family and Kingdom of God.. but is not the body of Christ

body of Christ-- a local assembly of saved, baptised individuals coventanted together to carry out the great commission and great commandment, with Jesus as the Head.

God bless
 
C

collective

Guest
#4
The church? to me it you and me talking in Jesus name,It may be in a street it may be at home, it may be over the internet as we are doing, praise God, people dont have to be in your church to be part of the body of christ as a universal Its born again believers getting together talking about Him, I think church in a local assembly has a good role, but when they go off about other born again religion baseis that when I go towards them because there is more to God than what is found in one church if their custom of teaching is the only way they see it the common bond in born again christians is faith in christ, nothing else,

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me
 
C

collective

Guest
#5
Wattie sad confession I used to be an independent baptist in thinking but what im thankful for is the knowledge of the word that was taught
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#6
What is with independent baptists, don't like being identified with the rest of Christianity or something?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#7
I think this website agrees with your views

but it clarifies better the dual use of the words:

http://theoslog.com/definitionofassembly.html


The New Testament uses the word ekklhsia in a number of ways:
1. A general assembly of people. - Israel in the wilderness was called “the ekklhsia in the wilderness” (Acts 7:38). The confused and angry mob (ekklhsia) that was rioting against Paul in Ephesus was encouraged to take their case to a lawful assembly (ekklhsia) (Acts 19:32, 39, 41). A religious gathering (Heb. 2:12; cf. Ps. 22:22).
2. A gathering of Christians. Frequently the New Testament speaks of the ekklhsia which was in some particular location: “the ekklhsia which was at Jerusalem” (Acts 8:1); “the ekklhsia which was at Antioch” (Acts 13:1); “the ekklhsia of God which is at Corinth” (I Cor. 1:2). Ekklhsia is also used in the plural for a group of local churches (I Cor. 16:19; Gal. 1:2).
3. All professing Believers. In this sense ekklhsia takes on a meaning almost synonymous all with Christians. Paul said to the Romans, “the ekklhsiai (plural) of Christ salute you” (Rom. 16:16). To the Galatians Paul wrote that he had “persecuted the ekklhsia of God” (Gal. 13:13). In these statements no particular local assembly is in view. Paul is speaking of Christians everywhere.
4. The Universal body of Christ. The word ekklhsia can refer, not only to a local gathering of Christians, but also to the general body of Christ. This includes all Believers who have placed their faith in Christ whether they are living or dead. Paul identified the ekklhsia as Christ’s body in his letters to the Ephesians and to the Colossians (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18). All Believers in this dispensation are united with each other and with Christ. Christ is head of the body and Lord of the ekklhsia.
Lightner writes regarding the Universal Ekklhsia:
There are a number of usages of ekklhsia that do not seem to refer to a local assembly of believers. Instead, they speak of that company of believers formed on the day of Pentecost into the body of Christ, which has been growing ever since as sinners trust Christ alone as Savior and are added to it. This company of the redeemed is called the church without consideration of whether or not those who are part of it are members of local churches.9
 
J

Jezreel

Guest
#8
Jesus Christ did not die and shed his blood and end the system of corrupt religeon just to have another corrupt system raised and put in it's place. He did not ordain organized religeon. He did not ordain clergy with paychecks and staff with the excuse "doesn't God want order?". Most gatherings on Sundays are not the true assemblying of the saints but are rather, gatherings programed by man. He did not ordain that one man stand up and lead and be the "head" of the church either. What we have today is a mixture of Judism and Roman Catholocism, idolaty. There are children of God throughout all denominations and Revelation says, "come out of her my people so you will not receive of her plagues". I am not suggesting that you physically leave your place of worship and follow me. You are to follow Christ and HIM alone and be where he has put you to be. If he calls you out totally, "outside the camp" then do so. Only Jesus can make you a member of his body, signing a piece of paper does not make us a member of his church, besides that, when you sign a piece of paper and agreeing to its laws and bylaws, you are actually making a covenant with that denomination.
God is currently using all the negative things that are happening in the world and our government, especially the failing economy to remove hirelings (those who preach for a paycheck) taking into account that those who leave or start pressuring their congregations to tithe and give more are most likely ordained by man and not ordained by God. Those men who are truly ordained, do not do the work of the Lord for a paycheck. Things will return and be restored as in the first church with Christ being the head and a removal of a false spiritual hierarchy. Judgement start first at the house of God and at us. He will anoint and raise up men and women of God that are his true servants because the greatest among us is to be the servant. Sadly, all too often, it is turned around today and those leaders who are ordained by man and not by God love their titles (pride of life) and do not lay their lives down. They have become untouchable, far from we "common people" where you even need to have an appointment and for the most part, if you do not "tithe" then, you are not as important as those who tithe and support the so called "storehouse". The book of Malichi is horrible twisted to put condemnation upon those to give. When Jesus sent out his disiples he told them, "when you go to a house, let your peace remain upon that house and heal all who are sick in that house. Eat and drink what is set before you because the laborer is worthy of his hire". That was their payment! Food and drink and a place to stay.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,324
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#9
Wattie sad confession I used to be an independent baptist in thinking but what im thankful for is the knowledge of the word that was taught
Sad confession?

I have been going to different churches since I was zero... and..

The independent missionary baptist church I go to is the only one that EVER told me what they believe and why they believe it, and showed me sound scripture backing it up!

I was a methodist.. never knew what they believed.. and then found out later what they believed and realised alot of it was off beam with the particular church I went to..

I was a charismatic.. never really knew what they believed.. people just did stuff.. then found out later after finding alot of the practices in teh charistmatic church I went to were strange.. that maybe they weren't scripturally sound either.

I was a New Ager.. and that was just all subjective experience.. make your own beliefs..


Independent baptist church I go to now.. is the only one that I can dig into our doctrines comparing it with the Word and find alot of strong harmony..

So this is no sad confession with me.. being part of the church I go to has been a deliverance and rich source of spiritual food from the Word.

I know you get independent baptists that are quite legalistic.. and that is what turns alot of people off them.. but in among these churches you get others that are warm, friendly, contemporary in worship.. but still completely biblically sound.

But ya I don have to justify myself..


In regards to this thread.. just study out the word church and the context surrounding it in the verses it is in.. and see what you find..
 
C

collective

Guest
#10
I like church to be strong in the bible where it is practiced and everybody uses it to encourage each other, no other book morally and spiritually that gives describtion about the relationship between jesus and the father, than in the bible,where the truth of it is rightly divided and can flick through their bibles when preaching Ive appreciated independants baptists that they excersise their bibles worn and weared but I have a problem about the legalism that brings fear and self exertion of trying to prove yourself if you are a good enough christian in the sight of God that drowns out the freedom in christ and true peace that you are right with God and the love of God.and being judgemental and spiritually proud, huge trap. and the problem that control to put everyone in every service to just sit and just listen always with no room for lengthy contolled discussions within the flock of the conversation but yet again not to be timewasters either and just talk about the weather either, but im glad that churchs of such have embrassed their bible and not fit in the mold of we read to you, dont bother bringing your bibles to church as catholisism did before the bibles were printed out,
 
S

Slepsog4

Guest
#11
There is a United States Postal Service which is national even though most of us only deal with it directly at the Local Post Office.

The church IS all the saved everywhere. But functionally it operates at the local level. We fellowship, worship, and serve in local settings. Discipline is exercised at the local level.

The two are not mutually exclusive. What is absent is the middle element of denominational divisions, conferences, etc.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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#12
I remember scripture where Jesus said docturine will divide his church. I wish I could recall where. Maby one of you can find it. Anyway I believe that this said alot about how Jesus viewed his church. God bless, pickles
 

Gabriel777

Senior Member
Sep 15, 2009
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#13
Matthew 10:34-36 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

Is it that one?
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
148
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#14
That is a good scripture but the one I read is very spacific to docturin. Ill try to find it again. I think it may have been in cor. but my memory for things like this is weak. I can remember the scripture but the chapter and verse are my stumbling block. God bless, pickles
 
C

cornerstone

Guest
#15
Background MB local, visible assembly, referring to churches, not all saved in the church, all saved in the family of God but not all in His church.
How does a universal church discipline? How is one added to the church, if all are in the church already? Who are the guests at the wedding supper as opposed to the Bride, if all are in the bride? The seven churches of Asia, not one church. It is not universal in nature and locally manifested!! If all the saved are in the church, then how does anyone reach the unity of the faith, if one believes salvation by grace and another salvation by works, one believes in sprinkling for baptism, another for emersion. No unity, certainly not one mind. When did Jesus ever refer to the church as universa?l. Some say, One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism but in context that is speaking to a church. Too many questions and inconsistencies in presenting a spotless Bride in the end with so many varied doctrines out there.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#16
The guests at the wedding are those who are part of the visible church.

The word church applies on many levels, local and universal are two.

You need to read each useage of the word church in context of the passage you are reading.

Each individual local church does not have its own lord and saviour and Spirit. There is only one that each local church shares in. Therefore each local church is part of a greater wider universal church on earth.
 
J

Jezreel

Guest
#17
I remember scripture where Jesus said docturine will divide his church. I wish I could recall where. Maby one of you can find it. Anyway I believe that this said alot about how Jesus viewed his church. God bless, pickles
Christ told a parable about the son of man sowing good seed but when he slept, an enemy came and sowed tares amongst the wheat. Matthew 13:43. It goes on to say that at the end of the world God will send his angels to gather out of his kingdom, all those who offend and commit iniquity and shall throw them into a furnace of fire.
It says that the field where the tares and good seed are sown, the field is the world. Other ones say that he will gather out of his kingdom.
 

MaggieMye

Senior Member
May 19, 2009
2,379
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#18
The MATURE universal body of Christ, the church, the Bride, understands that there are doctrinal issues that are not salvation issues and therefore irrelevant when it comes to taking a stand for God's word. They can agree to disagree on issues that are not relevent and agree to agree on issues that are, such as salvation and the importance of character, obedience, repentance.
Maggie
 
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