Is the creation of man a finished thing or is our creation still in process?

[Babylonisfalling]

I know the "work" of God in creating us is finished. The work of God in creating the universe is also finished but the universe is still expanding. More universe today than yesterday so in that sense, I'd say the universe is still being created, even though God's not "working" on it anymore.

Is man still being created also? Not in a physically evolutionary sense but in a growing Spiritual and moral sense? I think slowly but surely, in a two steps forward and one step backward kind of way, we are an improving species. We try to be more moral and screw it up a lot but over thousands of years, we make progress, which makes us different than a thousand years ago. I also think the moral/Spiritual side of man is the side that counts more than the physical side. Being different than we were a thousand years ago could mean our creation wasn't finished back then and still isn't finished now.

 

[crossnote]

Evolution has no part in any change. If anything man is devolving.

Regenerate man is growing in the knowledge of God and will one Day see Him and know Him as He is.

There will be a new heavens and a new earth.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Evolution has no part in any change. If anything man is devolving.<--Wasn't talking about physical evolution.

Regenerate man is growing in the knowledge of God and will one Day see Him and know Him as He is. <--This is what I meant.

There will be a new heavens and a new earth.

I think regenerate man may be a part of the creation process, and that creation of man may not be done until we know Him as he is, to use your own words

 

[mpaper345]

As time goes by the world gets more arrogant,and self exalting,which is how the beast kingdom comes about,which is a kingdom that honors no personal God,but honors the God of forces,an impersonal God.

The Bible says when the transgressors are come to the full,then a king will stand up that will deceive them to follow the beast kingdom.

The Bible says perilous times will come,and then describes their terrible behavior.

Proverbs 30:11-14,describes the last generation before Jesus puts them down,that will be the worse generation of mankind's history.

Jesus said since iniquity shall abound at the end time,that the love of many shall wax cold,and evil men shall wax worse,and worse,deceiving,and being deceived.

As time goes by the world gets more arrogant,and self exalting,and that is because that is the direction they are going.

Do not be deceived by the world that says we can come together,and solve our problems,and do good for the world,because the man of sin,by peace,shall destroy many,and when they shall say,peace and safety,then sudden destruction comes upon them.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

As time goes by the world gets more arrogant,and self exalting,which is how the beast kingdom comes about,which is a kingdom that honors no personal God,but honors the God of forces,an impersonal God.

The Bible says when the transgressors are come to the full,then a king will stand up that will deceive them to follow the beast kingdom.

The Bible says perilous times will come,and then describes their terrible behavior.

Proverbs 30:11-14,describes the last generation before Jesus puts them down,that will be the worse generation of mankind's history.

Jesus said since iniquity shall abound at the end time,that the love of many shall wax cold,and evil men shall wax worse,and worse,deceiving,and being deceived.

As time goes by the world gets more arrogant,and self exalting,and that is because that is the direction they are going.

Do not be deceived by the world that says we can come together,and solve our problems,and do good for the world,because the man of sin,by peace,shall destroy many,and when they shall say,peace and safety,then sudden destruction comes upon them.

Do you think that as a species we are less moral now than thousands of years ago?

 

[crossnote]

I think regenerate man may be a part of the creation process, and that creation of man may not be done until we know Him as he is, to use your own words

Do you think all men are born again?
Those of the old creation not born anew will perish eternally.

 

[DP]

Do you think that as a species we are less moral now than thousands of years ago?

As a species, mankind in general is a lot... less moral than even 50 years ago. But at the same time, those of the nations that have believed on Christ Jesus have become more moral than they were without Him.

Only a century ago, it was still fairly easy to see how foreign peoples outside the West began to prosper when accepting Jesus on a large scale in their nation. Then Satan's workers on earth instituted the concept of Communism, removing even Christian kings and queens off thrones, and subjecting a Christian majority to their atheistic death policies of Communism, and even empowering the radicals of Islam to start another world attack upon believers on Christ Jesus.

Yet all this was prophesied in God's Word for the last days, so we should not be shocked at what's happening in the world today with the declining morals.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

I think people in general are more moral.
Communists fell because of their evil nature and the Islamists (despite their evil inents) do not pose anything near the threat that Communists did. And even communism itself, (as evil as it was) was less evil than in it's beginnings under Lenin and Stalin. The sheer numbers of people persecuted for no reason at all was way down and Communists themselves recognized the evil of Stalin, if not Lenin. It was still evil I know, but not the same. Maybe in the case of the commies we could say they were "less evil" in their last days rather than "more moral" but the trend would still be on the same track.

 

[Stonemason]

The only things so far in this thread with which I agree are scriptural references, but not the meaning of their intent. The rest is... something. I can't even begin where this conversation went wrong.

edit: on morality we're the same as thousands of years ago. Some are more moral (it's subjective, you know), some are less, thus evil (again, subjective), and , well, I tried to contribute.

 

[DP]

I think people in general are more moral.
Communists fell because of their evil nature and the Islamists (despite their evil inents) do not pose anything near the threat that Communists did. And even communism itself, (as evil as it was) was less evil than in it's beginnings under Lenin and Stalin. The sheer numbers of people persecuted for no reason at all was way down and Communists themselves recognized the evil of Stalin, if not Lenin. It was still evil I know, but not the same. Maybe in the case of the commies we could say they were "less evil" in their last days rather than "more moral" but the trend would still be on the same track.

Communism has fallen? You're joking, right? And even in its beginnings it was less evil? Again you're joking, right?

World Communism has been responsible for more atrocities and murders of innocent peoples than any other political movement in history. I feel safe in saying that.

Even though Western leaders were fooled by the tearing down of the Berlin Wall, thinking Communism failed, all the Communist leaders did was drop the word communist and applied 'social democracy' to the same concept of world takeover they had in the beginning via Marx and Lenin. They still... are at work on that plan today. The only change is that Western leaders have been deceived.

As for the problem of Islamic radicals, who do you think has been funding and supporting them with military training and equipment, Santa Claus??? It's been the Communist nations.

You're just a little younger than me, but still old enough to remember these things about world communism and its workings, and should still be able to recognize their continuance today.

 

[Stonemason]

That's like saying "food is responsible for almost all food-related choking deaths", that "there is evidence for statistically less corruption in my flavor of government", and "western ideology didn't contribute to considerations averse to western ideology". The best part was Santa Claus.

 

[DP]

That's like saying "food is responsible for almost all food-related choking deaths", that "there is evidence for statistically less corruption in my flavor of government", and "western ideology didn't contribute to considerations averse to western ideology". The best part was Santa Claus.

Your analogy just doesn't... work at all.

But I will share something with you regarding some... Western leaders. One of their own admitted that they often work with the Communists and have no problem doing so. That's what Georgetown professor Carrol Quigley said in his book Tragedy And Hope written in the 1960's. He was Bill Clinton's history professor at Georgetown University, and Clinton endorsed him in his inaugural speech as U.S. President.

That reveals a link of some Western Socialist leaders allied with world Communism, specifically the Cecil Rhodes followers, which Quigley out layed in his book, saying he had been close to those "insiders" most of his life, had been allowed to preview their secret records for two years, and that he had no problem with their goals, only that he disagreed that their movement remain secret.

So there's actually TWO main political factions in the world today working towards the plan of one-world socialism and one-world government, the Communist International and the Western followers of Cecil Rhodes. And I haven't even begun to mention the secret societies like Masonry yet.

 

[slave]

I know the "work" of God in creating us is finished. The work of God in creating the universe is also finished but the universe is still expanding. More universe today than yesterday so in that sense, I'd say the universe is still being created, even though God's not "working" on it anymore.

Is man still being created also? Not in a physically evolutionary sense but in a growing Spiritual and moral sense? I think slowly but surely, in a two steps forward and one step backward kind of way, we are an improving species. We try to be more moral and screw it up a lot but over thousands of years, we make progress, which makes us different than a thousand years ago. I also think the moral/Spiritual side of man is the side that counts more than the physical side. Being different than we were a thousand years ago could mean our creation wasn't finished back then and still isn't finished now.

Why are you asking this question? Are you giving a way out of the necessity for death to self and our resurrection in Christ, by allowing the all forgiving time factor to smooth over the growth of mans morality to be our enlightenment? What does not being finished with mans morality and spirituality mean to you?How is this any different than Salvation by works if it is anything outside of the Holy Spirit indwelling in us? And when did morality become a means to an end to God?

Let's look at your point on morality. Morality can't exist without God. Without God what does the criteria of Morality have to compare to? But God does exist so there is Morality. There is right and wrong. If, God does not exist, then it is plausible to think that there are no objective moral values, that we have no moral duties, and that there is no moral accountability for how we live and act. The horror of such a morally neutral world is obvious.

If, on the other hand, we hold, as it seems rational to do, that objective moral values and duties do exist, then we have good grounds for believing in God. In addition, we have powerful practical reasons for embracing theism in view of the morally bracing effects which belief in moral accountability produces. We then cannot be truly good without God; but if we can in some measure be good, then it follows that God exists. So, now the real question can be asked: "Are you right with God, not later but right now?!!" Men aren't getting better, or worse, they are only getting closer to judgment by which way they chose in their life with Jesus Christ. God doesn't have any side interests in making us a bit better over time what would that do in helping us conquer Original sin? And if it does nothing what's the point? Things are always changing within a life cycle, but the issue isn't time -relation vs. sin- potency equations. There is nothing new under the sun, and this is the whole duty of man: to fear God and obey His commandments. [Ecclesiastes].

 

[DP]

Why are you asking this question? Are you giving a way out of the necessity for death to self and our resurrection in Christ, by allowing the all forgiving time factor to smooth over the growth of mans morality to be our enlightenment? What does not being finished with mans morality and spirituality mean to you?How is this any different than Salvation by works if it is anything outside of the Holy Spirit indwelling in us? And when did morality become a means to an end to God?

Let's look at your point on morality. Morality can't exist without God. Without God what does the criteria of Morality have to compare to? But God does exist so there is Morality. There is right and wrong. If, God does not exist, then it is plausible to think that there are no objective moral values, that we have no moral duties, and that there is no moral accountability for how we live and act. The horror of such a morally neutral world is obvious.

If, on the other hand, we hold, as it seems rational to do, that objective moral values and duties do exist, then we have good grounds for believing in God. In addition, we have powerful practical reasons for embracing theism in view of the morally bracing effects which belief in moral accountability produces. We then cannot be truly good without God; but if we can in some measure be good, then it follows that God exists. So, now the real question can be asked: "Are you right with God, not later but right now?!!" Men aren't getting better, or worse, they are only getting closer to judgment by which way they chose in their life with Jesus Christ. God doesn't have any side interests in making us a bit better over time what would that do in helping us conquer Original sin? And if it does nothing what's the point? Things are always changing within a life cycle, but the issue isn't time -relation vs. sin- potency equations. There is nothing new under the sun, and this is the whole duty of man: to fear God and obey His commandments. [Ecclesiastes].

He's probably just a evolutionist plant come here to try and toy with us.

 

[Stonemason]

Do you think communism "caused more deaths of innocents" than german national socialism? Are we talking about political structures over a period of recorded history and all deaths "under them", like, oh, I don't know, monarchy? Do you think communism is a scary thing which physically manifests as a rampaging murderer? I don't understand.

Communism is just an idea, and on paper it looks ok. There's no bogeyman walking down the street, inhuman, covered in red flags with hammers, scythes and stars killing and torturing people. The practice of communism, the corruption by the participants, is the issue. What's a democratic republic but a lesser of many evils?

The issue of moralistic relativity starts in the individual. The real war starts in the hearts, minds and souls of every individual, and many (most?) don't, can't choose to which national policy to which they belong. Pointing to one and saying, "you're bad! you kill people!", is somehow being dismissive of the fact they all do, and it's not going to "fix" the "moral issue" this or any conversation might address.

 

[James47]

if evolution is consantly changing why are there still monekys? just saying lol

 

[Miri]

Just a few verses for thought.

Genesis 6:5-7 AMP
[5] The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every
imagination and intention of all human thinking was only evil continually. [6] And
the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved at
heart. [7] So the Lord said, I will destroy, blot out, and wipe away mankind, whom
I have created from the face of the ground--not only man, but the beasts and
the creeping things and the birds of the air--for it grieves Me and makes Me
regretful that I have made them.

Matthew 24:37-39 AMP
[37] As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [38] For
just as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, men marrying
and women being given in marriage, until the very day when Noah went into the ark,
[39] And they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all
away--so will be the coming of the Son of Man.




In my opinion something happened to the world during the life time of Noah which
very quickly increased the evil upon the earth, so much so that God wiped out
all of mankind apart from Noah and his family. Then we have the "as it was in the
days of Noah" verses in Matthew. I actually think mankind in Genesis must have been
depraved beyond anything we can imagine, but it will get that way again before the
Lord comes. Maybe it was due to everyone speaking the same language before the
Tower of Babel story, so mankind cooperated in its evil imaginings with each other?

I think I know what the OP means about us still being created spiritually. On an individual
basis as Christians we never stop learning and growing in faith and our relationship with Him.
On a planetary scale less and less people believe in God and morally and spiritually mankind
is going to the dogs.

We might think of ourselves as being better educated, with more advances in science,
medicine etc than ever before, yet we cannot stop wars, we cannot stop terriosts,
we cannot prevent toddlers being homeless or dying for lack of food.
We kill our young and allow our old to die, we spend billions in
space exploration yet destroy our own planet. We drive animals to the edge of extinction etc.
We find new ways to cause maximum harm to each other as weapons develop.

It it doesn't sound to me as if we are improving morally or spiritually.

 

[Porter]

Is man still being created also? Not in a physically evolutionary sense but in a growing Spiritual and moral sense? .

I believe God is still creating man into His image. We are not there yet obviously, but give Him some time

The King James Version does not do a good job of getting the aorist tense correctly from Genesis 1:26, so I will quote it from the Concordant Literal Version.

Gen 1:27
And CREATING is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.

As you can see from the CLV we are still a work in progress as it captures the aorist tense correctly taken from the Hebrew manuscripts.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Why are you asking this question? Are you giving a way out of the necessity for death to self and our resurrection in Christ, <---No, why do you ask, are you looking for a way out? by allowing the all forgiving time factor to smooth over the growth of mans morality to be our enlightenment? <--You think the "time factor" would actually do that?! I thought it would come from God over time. You seem to be coming up with your own extrapolations thus far, and applying them to me. What does not being finished with mans morality and spirituality mean to you? <--It basically means our creation is still an ongoing thing. How is this any different than Salvation by works if it is anything outside of the Holy Spirit indwelling in us <--Because the post doesn't claim salvation by works. And when did morality become a means to an end to God <---I didn't know it did
You presume a LOT.

Let's look at your point on morality. Morality can't exist without God. <---People know that Without God what does the criteria of Morality have to compare to? But God does exist so there is Morality. There is right and wrong. If, God does not exist, then it is plausible to think that there are no objective moral values, that we have no moral duties, and that there is no moral accountability for how we live and act. The horror of such a morally neutral world is obvious.

If, on the other hand, we hold, as it seems rational to do, that objective moral values and duties do exist, then we have good grounds for believing in God. In addition, we have powerful practical reasons for embracing theism in view of the morally bracing effects which belief in moral accountability produces. We then cannot be truly good without God; but if we can in some measure be good, then it follows that God exists. So, now the real question can be asked: "Are you right with God, not later but right now?!!" <---We are forgiven by God, so in that sense you could say we're right with God. God still want's us to be less sinful in our behavior though, which is possible with God's help. Men aren't getting better, or worse, <--We are improving as a species. The fact that slavery is not the norm anymore is one example. The fact that human sacrifice is almost gone is another. We can go on with ways in which we're become more moral. It IS because of God that these things occur. If you think I believe this is all human driven...I definitely don't. they are only getting closer to judgment by which way they chose in their life with Jesus Christ. God doesn't have any side interests in making us a bit better over time what would that do in helping us conquer Original sin? And if it does nothing what's the point? Things are always changing within a life cycle, but the issue isn't time -relation vs. sin- potency equations. There is nothing new under the sun, and this is the whole duty of man: to fear God and obey His commandments. [Ecclesiastes].

I don't know that God is making us better over time in the sense of tinkering with us as we go through history. I think we were created in a way that naturally draws us back to He that created us, even if we aren't aware of it all the time. Gods laws on our hearts gives us a sense of right and wrong. We instinctively try to follow those laws and over time but even our desire to follow those laws comes from God. The ongoing attempt at following theses laws causes change over time, and this is why I suggest that our creation is still a work in progress. We were created this way by God which makes it kind of inexorable.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

if evolution is consantly changing why are there still monekys? just saying lol

Ev

This wasn't supposed to be thread about evolution.

God could have use a process of physical evolution if He had wanted but it's too big a leap of faith to believe He did it that way. Evolutionists need a LOT LOT more evidence.

Social and moral evolution is a different matter though. The problem is that as soon as you use the word "evolution" in ANY context, people want to argue about the monkeys.