Is the New Covenant for Israel only?

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1still_waters

Guest
#21
Could be an example of Bible author, God inspired, double fulfillment.

The text in Jeremiah talks of their return from the second exile.

So it was initially fulfilled on their return to the land after the exile.

Then it was also fulfilled in the NT on a broader context to all people.
Hebrews 10:11-18
Hebrews 8:10
Romans 8

Anyone who knows me, knows I only believe in double fulfillment if it's done by a inspired Bible author, and not imposed upon the text by a non Bible author, trying to make the text fit their theiry.

Hebrews and Romans are written by inspired NT authors, so there is room for double fulilment in my view, seeing the NT authors use parts of Jeremiah 31 to establish NT truth.
 
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A

Abiding

Guest
#22
Sitting here waiting for the rep power change to 11 and maybe another green thingy
nope well maybe next time :)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#23
Time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

(Romans 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

All Israel is saved.

(Galatians 3:29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [ISRAEL], and heirs according to the promise.
Paul was not talking present tense. He did not consider it fulfilled. why should I?


Romans 11

Israel’s Rejection Not Total

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]


9 And David says:


Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.[e]Israel’s Rejection Not Final


11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:


The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.[h]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”[i]
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Sorry I can see no other way to translate this but Paul is saying Israel is blind. and through their blindness has come salvation to the gentiles. But there will be a day when Isreal will return. and all will come to him.

The time of the gentile is now. It has not been complete when it is. God has promised Israel will be grafted back in because of their repentance. As as Jeremiah said. The all will be saved. From the least to the greatest. And neighbor will not need to teach their neighbor about God. for they all will believe the same thing.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#24
Friend....WHO is Israel?

You are surely not talking about people who decide to call themselves "Jews" or (even worse) be referring to the terrorist apartheid state of RothschildsVille that is a total abomination to God?

Got Dispy?

I call Israel what scripture calls isreal. Of the 12 tribes of the sons who came from Jacob, who was renames Israel By God.

The church is not jew or gentile. it is the body of Christ. But God has not stopped his promises he made with the jewish fathers. He will fulfill them when Isreal repents. Which scripture says they will.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#25
what does this mean..................until the fullness of the gentiles come in..............the understanding of that forces the interpretation
of the whole thing.
 
Mar 2, 2010
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#26
Could be an example of Bible author, God inspired, double fulfillment.

The text in Jeremiah talks of their return from the second exile.

So it was initially fulfilled on their return to the land after the exile.

Then it was also fulfilled in the NT on a broader context to all people.
Hebrews 10:11-18
Hebrews 8:10
Romans 8

Anyone who knows me, knows I only believe in double fulfillment if it's done by a inspired Bible author, and not imposed upon the text by a non Bible author, trying to make the text fit their theiry.

Hebrews and Romans are written by inspired NT authors, so there is room for double fulilment in my view, seeing the NT authors use parts of Jeremiah 31 to establish NT truth.
With regard to the covenants I am not sure why you cite Romans 8, but as for the Hebrews passages you list- keep in mind that the original audience of Hebrews was composed mostly or exclusively of Jewish followers of Jesus. The case for Gentile inclusion in the New Covenant cannot be made on the basis of Hebrews unless the referenced passages in Hebrews say that they are addressing the issue of Gentiles, which I am sure they do not.
What I am advocating is not that there are two different gospels or two different ways to God or even two different outcomes, but rather that the New Covenant is the basis for God's ongoing relationship with Israel in place of the Mosaic covenant, while the Gentile's relationship with God is based on God's promises to Abraham in Genesis 12, namely, that God will bless all the nations of the earth through Abraham's seed. Unless you are Jewish the New Covenant doesn't have any direct impact on your relationship with God. Jesus and his work on the cross certainly do, but the covenants do not.

I may even go a step further and say that among the NT authors in general and Paul in particular, when the issue of Moses and the Mosaic covenant come up Paul is not even addressing Gentile followers, but Jewish ones. The exception is when Paul addresses Gentile followers who are submitting themselves inappropriately to the Mosaic covenant. Instead of Moses, when Paul addresses himself to the Gentiles he does so with reference to Abraham. And this makes sense. Gentiles had nothing to do with the Mosaic covenant either historically or personally in Paul's time, so any reference to it would hardly be well understood or particularly edifying. While they may have understood things like the Temple or the sacrifices, relating the work of Christ to these images would, for Gentile converts, be poorly contextualized.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#27
Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


Given that Jeremiah states and the author of Hebrews quotes that this covenant is with the houses of Israel and Judah, and that the New Covenant is never applied to Gentiles in any passage of the New Testament (as far as I can think of off the top of my head), is the New Covenant only for Israel? The only passage I can think of right now where Gentiles and the New Covenant have any interaction is 1 Corinthians 11, when Paul instructs Gentiles on the proper observance of the Lord's Supper. Also, Paul is clear in Galatians 3 that Gentiles are reconciled to God on the basis of God's promises to Abraham in Genesis 12 and 22, not through the Mosaic covenant.
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Rom 9:4: They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
5: to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.
6: But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
: Notice in verse 4 that to the Israelites belong the covenants. Paul states that not all who are physically born as Israelites belong to Israel. To put it another way, true Israelites are those who cling to Israel's Messiah by faith.

Also in verse 4: The sonship belongs to Israel. To be a son of God, you must be an Israelite. That is to say, Israel is God's family. Tie this together with verses 24 - 26 in which gentiles are referred to by God (quoted from Hosea) as "my people" and "sons of the living God."]

24: ... not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
25: As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people
I will call `my people,'
and her who was not beloved
I will call `my beloved.'"
26: "And in the very place where it was said to them, `You are not my
people,' they will be called `sons of the living God.'"
27: And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved;
30: What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
31: but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.
32: Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33: as it is written,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble,
a rock that will make them fall;
and he who believes in him will not be put to shame."
 
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#28
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Rom 9:4: They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
5: to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.
6: But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
: Notice in verse 4 that to the Israelites belong the covenants. Paul states that not all who are physically born as Israelites belong to Israel. To put it another way, true Israelites are those who cling to Israel's Messiah by faith.

Also in verse 4: The sonship belongs to Israel. To be a son of God, you must be an Israelite. That is to say, Israel is God's family. Tie this together with verses 24 - 26 in which gentiles are referred to by God (quoted from Hosea) as "my people" and "sons of the living God."]

24: ... not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
25: As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people
I will call `my people,'
and her who was not beloved
I will call `my beloved.'"
26: "And in the very place where it was said to them, `You are not my
people,' they will be called `sons of the living God.'"
27: And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved;
30: What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
31: but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.
32: Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33: as it is written,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble,
a rock that will make them fall;
and he who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Only by severing v4 from v3, where Paul clearly and EXPLICITLY states that he is talking about Israelites who are his kin ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, can we spiritualize "Israel" in the rest of this chapter. Paul says not all who are descended from Israel are Israelites, but he never says people who are NOT descended from Israel ARE Israelites. I know it is common practice in Christian circles to spiritualize Israel and the Law and the covenants, but it is exactly the fact that THE ONLY WAY WE CAN RELATED TO THESE THINGS IS BY SPIRITUALIZING that proves my point: The New Covenant is a real covenant that God has made with fleshly Israel through the blood of Jesus the Messiah.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#29
Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
what promise?
 
Mar 11, 2011
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#30
Only by severing v4 from v3, where Paul clearly and EXPLICITLY states that he is talking about Israelites who are his kin ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, can we spiritualize "Israel" in the rest of this chapter. Paul says not all who are descended from Israel are Israelites, but he never says people who are NOT descended from Israel ARE Israelites. I know it is common practice in Christian circles to spiritualize Israel and the Law and the covenants, but it is exactly the fact that THE ONLY WAY WE CAN RELATED TO THESE THINGS IS BY SPIRITUALIZING that proves my point: The New Covenant is a real covenant that God has made with fleshly Israel through the blood of Jesus the Messiah.
Uggh!

Forever in Christ :)
 
Jul 3, 2011
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#31
what does this mean..................until the fullness of the gentiles come in..............the understanding of that forces the interpretation
of the whole thing.
The time of the Gentiles is from the time that the gentile were given the gospel (Cornelius) to the return of Christ. At which point every Jew that has not bowed to anti christ will receive Jesus as Messiah.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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#32

I call Israel what scripture calls isreal. Of the 12 tribes of the sons who came from Jacob, who was renames Israel By God.

The church is not jew or gentile. it is the body of Christ. But God has not stopped his promises he made with the jewish fathers. He will fulfill them when Isreal repents. Which scripture says they will.
Paul says that the Church is the Israel of God. He also says that the Gentile have been grafted into the good olive tree which is Israel, and furthermore he says that Gentile believers have become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel.... But you cant believe this biblical truth you are a dispensationalist. your doctrine trumps scripture.
 
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#33
Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
what promise?
In Abraham's seed (Jesus) all the nations of the earth will be blessed. We have reconciliation with God on the basis of Christ's finished work, without reference to the New Covenant. The inheritance that belongs to Jew and Gentile alike by faith is God's Holy Spirit.
 
Mar 2, 2010
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#34
Paul says that the Church is the Israel of God. He also says that the Gentile have been grafted into the good olive tree which is Israel, and furthermore he says that Gentile believers have become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel.... But you cant believe this biblical truth you are a dispensationalist. your doctrine trumps scripture.
Not sure he calls the church the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). To whom exactly he is refering is vague, but it seems that it is NOT the Galatians.

Being grafted into the olive tree does not make one and Israelite, it makes one a beneficiary of the root that supports the olive tree.

Paul also does not say that Gentiles have become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, only that they were formerly excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. Citizenship and inclusion are quite different.

PS- I'm not a dispensationalist, so how do you discredit me?
 
Mar 11, 2011
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#36
I would respond, but I don't know exactly what you are thinking since you didn't bother to use real words, just sounds.
Real words just seem NOT to work :confused: However, if one recogognizes that they themselves and everybody else were originalley Begotten from a Much better and Beatutiful place than This, Well then you would KNOW that this ONE has a Clue!

Jesus The Christ IS FOREVER.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#37
I like things simple, so, Jesus is Jewish, it's not I who lives but Christ who lives in me(Jesus) so now I'm Jewish messianic at that lol see simple, new creation born again into His promise, not of this world a better place awaits, sojourners just passing thru. Hidden in Christ
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#38
The time of the Gentiles is from the time that the gentile were given the gospel (Cornelius) to the return of Christ. At which point every Jew that has not bowed to anti christ will receive Jesus as Messiah.
common answer, not the only answer, but the latest one historically.
Oh ya, doesnt say times of the gentiles.
 
Aug 12, 2010
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#39
Paul was not talking present tense. He did not consider it fulfilled. why should I?
Sorry I can see no other way to translate this but Paul is saying Israel is blind. and through their blindness has come salvation to the gentiles. But there will be a day when Isreal will return. and all will come to him.

The time of the gentile is now. It has not been complete when it is. God has promised Israel will be grafted back in because of their repentance. As as Jeremiah said. The all will be saved. From the least to the greatest. And neighbor will not need to teach their neighbor about God. for they all will believe the same thing.
There is no more HOUSE of ancient Israel.

There is only spiritual Israel. All Israel is saved NOW.

If you dont see this then tell me WHO is Israel? The "Jews"? The "state of israel"? WHO?
 
Aug 12, 2010
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#40

I call Israel what scripture calls isreal. Of the 12 tribes of the sons who came from Jacob, who was renames Israel By God.

The church is not jew or gentile. it is the body of Christ. But God has not stopped his promises he made with the jewish fathers. He will fulfill them when Isreal repents. Which scripture says they will.
Do we know who is of the 12 tribes TODAY?

Does NT scripture call Israel only those of the fleshly tribes?