Is the "renewing of the mind " our responcibility?

[Nehemiah6]

If we're born again, we put off the old man and put on the new.

If that were really the case, then every babe in Christ would be automatically perfect and sinless. But both Scripture and empirical evidence shows that what you have stated is incorrect.

1. When a sinner receives the Holy Spirit, he also receives the New Birth, which means that he becomes a child of God.

2. The Holy Spirit "quickens" or brings to life the dead spirit of that person, and indwells that spirit. That is essentially "the new creature in Christ" who desires the things of God and delights to obey God and communicate with God. This is where God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

3. At the same time the flesh -- the old man -- has not been eradicated. Therefore every epistle exhorts the believer to walk in the Spirit and to mortify (or crucify, or deny) the flesh and its lusts.

4. There is always a battle between the flesh and the Spirit, but the Holy Spirit empowers the Christian to become an overcomer by faith and by resisting the Devil and mortifying the flesh. This means that the sin nature cannot dominate the true Christian, but by the same token Christians can and do sin, and must confess their sins, and repent.

5. We are commanded to renew our minds, which must move from the influence of the world and evil spirits to the influence of the Word and the Holy Spirit. This renewal comes by "the washing of the Word", meaning the reading, study, and application of Scripture to every situation and circumstance. Now if we look at this Scripture carefully, the non-conformance to the world and the renewal of our minds is our responsibility, and this is somehow being pushed aside in this discussion: (a) And be not conformed to this world: but (b) be ye transformed by (c) the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

That is how the mind is renewed progressively as the Christian is progressively sanctified. There is no "magic bullet" which suddenly makes sinners into saints. However they are positionally saints because the Holy Spirit dwells within then and seals them for the completion of their salvation.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, "different from that which had been formerly" is the old man.
Yes, the new man is perfect.
Yes, God created (birthed) the new man within the born again believer.

ok. New man is created by God and is perfect. In agreement.

who causes the growth as we continue to feed on the Word of God?

1) We do - it is a command to us - be transformed by the renewing of your mind. If it is something God does upon the new birth - He wouldn't tell us to do it.

Not in agreement here.

I believe God gives the increase. God works within us and as we continue in the new man, the growth / increase is more rapid. If we neglect to put on the new man (remain conformed to this world), the new man within remains in spiritual infancy.

I see the command as be not conformed to this world i.e. put off the old man, but be ye transformed i.e. put on the new man. The renewing of your mind occurs because inherent in the new man is that which is "different from that which had been formerly" --- the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16).

Do we grow ourselves? Or does God grow us, as He brings the increase?

2) The growth happens as we renew our mind - "upgrade" our thinking from the old man to the new man. As we bring what has occurred on the inside to the outside.

We mature in the new man as we continue to walk in the new man, feeding on the Word of God, continuing in prayer, doing those things we are instructed to do.

If we do not put off the old man, the new man remains spiritually under-developed --- still there, but an infant.

Do we conform ourselves to the image of Christ? Or is it God (Who is at work within us) Who conforms us to the image of His Son?

3) As we bring our new man to the forefront within our thoughts and actions, we become more like Christ.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. . . . it is a work in process.
What do you think a "carnal" Christian is? It is one who has been born again but has not renewed his mind to the point to where he is transformed.

We become more like Christ in the new man. And yes, it is a work in process. Looking at the life of the Vine (John 15), Father prunes and cleanses and removes all the fleshly debris which is not beneficial to us. Additionally, the Lord Jesus Christ infuses us with His sap and we become fruit-bearing branches in Him.

I think a "carnal" Christian is the believer who does not put off the old man. The believer who continues to live according to who he or she was in Adam. And the carnal Christian will have the works of the flesh evidenced in his/her life. That is the indicator that he/she has not put off the old man and put on the new man.

The renewed mind is part of the new man. You have already agreed that the "renewed mind" is "that which is different from that which had been formerly". The renewed mind is the mind of Christ. Does the mind of Christ have to be "renewed"? No! The mind of Christ is the renewed mind. I do not think I am communicating this very well and I know it would be easier if we were sitting face to face at a table with our bibles and other reference material in front of us (and some coffee!!!).

Yes, the new man is perfect . . . putting on the new man is "upgrading" my thoughts to be transformed into the image of Christ. We are born dominated by our sinful nature - when we are born again and have the new nature of Christ within us - God commands us to put off the old nature and put on the new.

The reason our thoughts are "upgraded" is because the mind of Christ is now within us. As we continue in the new man, that mind of Christ is with us to direct us.

This does not come naturally - that is why we have to change our character and our actions and live like the children of God we are. The inner man, the new nature, does influence us toward godliness, just as our old man influences us toward selfishness. That is what Paul is speaking of in Galatians - the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit lusts against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would.

We cannot "change our character". The old man cannot be fixed. That is why God gives the new man.

The inner man does more than "influence" us toward godliness. The inner man is that divine nature which allows us to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Pe 1:4).

The old man does more than "influence" us toward selfishness. The old man is "selfish". It is interested in only one thing --- to feed itself through fulfilling all its lusts.

The verse from Galatians (the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would).

To me, this means that when I am walking in the new man, the old man cannot do the things it wants to do (which is a good thing).

On the other hand, when I am walking in the old man, the new man cannot do the things it wants to do (which is not a good thing).

So remain in the new man where the old man cannot do what it wants. Will the old man nudge the new man? You betcha. But we don't have to follow those nudges. We don't have to leave the new man. We can remain steadfast and unmoveable. And we have our Father Who will hold us to Him; we have our Lord Jesus Christ Who will help us with our burdens so that we remain yoked to Him.

We can read the word of God all day long, every day, but if we do not apply it, if we do not renew (upgrade) our thinking to be in alignment, if we do not put off the old man and put on the new man created in righteousness - we will NOT grow.

Again, I see it a little differently than you.

I see it as:

If we do not put off the old man, we can read the word of God all day long, every day, and our thinking will not be in alignment and we will NOT grow.

If we put on the new man, we can read the word of God all day long, every day, and our thinking will be in alignment and we WILL grow.

Our part in the whole equation of growing up/maturing is put off the old man and put on the new man.

That's called renewing our minds . . .

Only because the mind of Christ (the renewed mind) is inherent in the new man.

It's not that the mind of the old man is changed in any way, shape, or form as we put on the new man. We all know that when we slip back into who we were in Adam, the same works of the flesh are exhibited in our life. It's not like those works of the flesh are cleaned up a little. Nope. They're just as filthy. No change to the old man.

Well, now I know I still have work to do!!! I have a prayer journal - I haven't entered a prayer in it in a couple of days. Did my new man remind me? Yep . . . shameful to say but yep. Now, if I automatically have the "mind of Christ", why didn't I automatically obey? Because I allowed my "old man" to overrule that "new man" inside me. Is my desire to do the will of my heavenly Father - sure it is but I don't always do it. And if I am totally honest . . . it happens more than I truly want it to.

Happens to all of us. We will not be rid of this body of flesh in this lifetime. God understands this. In Psalm 103:13-14, He tells us Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

I just love God. He is so gracious and merciful toward us. What a great Father we have!

IOW - My MIND, my way of thinking was NOT changed when I was born again - that is why we are commanded to put off the old and put on the new - put off the old man that still has the "fleshly thinking" and put on the new man which has the mind of Christ.

Exactly!!!

Whew, I was beginning to wonder if you ever had any battles to overcome!!

Yes, I struggle with the same things every believer struggles with. Looking forward to that day when I will see Him face to face because then (and only then) will I no longer struggle.

Yep, we do get those urges to be angry, bitter towards either something that happened in our lives in the past or something that is going on now, to be unhospitable, to be selfish, and a bunch of other things and these habits originate in our thinking, . . . the old man rearing its head and we have to renew our minds to what the word of God says concerning this anger, bitterness - if I didn't know that I was to not think more highly of myself than I ought, that I was to be kindly affectionate to one another, honor one another, not slothful in business, fervent in spirit, rejoicing in hope, continuing in prayer, give to the necessity of the saints, etc. - these things are not my gut, automatic response - I have to renew my mind to these things. I have to keep these things in mind in order to transform my character to be more like Christ.

Again, I see it a little differently ---

Anger, bitterness, unhospitable, selfish – these are all old man tendencies. All inherent in the old man.

So, if/when I see these things in my life, I know I am have not put off the old man and put on the new man.

Rather than trying to "clean up" these old man tendencies, put off the old man and put on the new man.

Then, we will not think more highly than we ought, we will be kindly affectionate and honor one another. We will not be slothful in business. We will be fervent in spirit. We will rejoice in hope, continue in prayer, give to the necessity of the saints. All these things are inherent in the new man.

I believe that this is a life long process. Sometimes when you think you have conquered something in your life . . . oops - there is that irate customer you have to deal with at work, there is that car that cuts you off in traffic, there is that person who comes along and whose personality just grates on your nerves . . . Truthfully, what is your first thought? I bet it ain't "well, bless your heart" . . .
And yet even though that old man may rear its head, your relationship with the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is still more dear than all that that may have happened . . . Thank God he knows we are but dust and his grace carries us as we deal with our weaknesses!

All those things do not have to cause us to turn from who we are in Christ Jesus. We can see them (or hear, or feel, etc.). But we can count our relationship with the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ more crucial to us than the brief satisfaction we would get if we allow our fleshly inclinations to rule over us. In other words, die to self. Let it go.

The irate customer – see that they're irate, try to calm them. They are the ones with the problem, not you. Remain calm and peaceful. Sometimes the irate customer will calm down and sometimes they won't. But that is no reason to leave the shelter.

The car that cuts us off in traffic – I figure they're in a hurry. Also, I pray for the driver --- that they reach their destination on time and without incident.

The person whose personality grates on our nerves – first try to figure out why. Is there a spiritual issue in that person? If it's not spiritual, God can work within us so that person doesn't bother us as much.

We hinder the process by continuing to walk in the flesh . . . how to we get away from that? by being transformed by the renewing of our minds. And again, I believe it is a life long process to become more like Christ. I believe that my "new man", the Spirit within me, has the mind of Christ but I still have the mind of the "old man". I have to renew my thoughts - those immediate thoughts that do not consistently line up with my "new man" - I have to "cast down imaginations (thoughts)and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bring every thought to the obedience of Christ" - that is renewing your mind. . . .

We get away from walking in the flesh by putting off the old man and putting on the new man. Then (and only then) are our minds renewed. Old man cannot be renewed. that's why God gave the new man ... because old man cannot be fixed.

Our thoughts are renewed only in the new man because in the new man we think with the mind of Christ. In the old man, we think with the mind of Adam.

As far as casting down imaginations, etc. There is no way the old man is capable of doing any of the things iterated in 2 Cor 10:5. These are all new man victories.

Look at the verses just before 2 Cor 10:5:

2 Corinthians 10:

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


Vs 3 ― even though the verse says we walk in the flesh I see verse 3 as having put off the old man. I see this verse as having put on the new man, yet having this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us (2 Cor 4:7).

So we have this treasure in earthen vessels and we war a spiritual warfare.

Vs 4 ― our weapons are not carnal (fleshly) but mighty through God.

Vs 5 ― casting down imaginations, every high thing that exalts against the knowledge of God, bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ ― all new man realities. Old man cannot do this no matter how many bible verses we put in. If we do not put off the old man, we will never cast down or bring into captivity. These things are simply beyond the scope of old man capabilities.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If we're born again, we put off the old man and put on the new.

If that were really the case, then every babe in Christ would be automatically perfect and sinless. But both Scripture and empirical evidence shows that what you have stated is incorrect.

What is incorrect about "put off the old man" and "put on the new man"?

1. When a sinner receives the Holy Spirit, he also receives the New Birth, which means that he becomes a child of God.

In agreement.

2. The Holy Spirit "quickens" or brings to life the dead spirit of that person, and indwells that spirit. That is essentially "the new creature in Christ" who desires the things of God and delights to obey God and communicate with God. This is where God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

In agreement.

3. At the same time the flesh -- the old man -- has not been eradicated. Therefore every epistle exhorts the believer to walk in the Spirit and to mortify (or crucify, or deny) the flesh and its lusts.

In agreement.

5. We are commanded to renew our minds, which must move from the influence of the world and evil spirits to the influence of the Word and the Holy Spirit. This renewal comes by "the washing of the Word", meaning the reading, study, and application of Scripture to every situation and circumstance. Now if we look at this Scripture carefully, the non-conformance to the world and the renewal of our minds is our responsibility, and this is somehow being pushed aside in this discussion: (a) And be not conformed to this world: but (b) be ye transformed by (c) the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The word "renewing" is the Greek word anakainōsis which means "a new development; a renewal, achieved by God's power" (according to HELPS Word-studies) and, according to Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance the word means "renewal, renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly".

The renewing of the mind is achieved by God's power as it is God Who created the new man within the born again believer.

Inherent in the new man is the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16 But we have the mind of Christ).

The mind of Christ does not reside in the old man. The mind of Christ is part of the new man.

As we put off the old man we will not be conformed to this world.

As we put on the new man, our minds are renewed and we are transformed. What can you possibly do to the mind of Christ to make it "more" renewed?

That is how the mind is renewed progressively as the Christian is progressively sanctified. There is no "magic bullet" which suddenly makes sinners into saints. However they are positionally saints because the Holy Spirit dwells within then and seals them for the completion of their salvation.

To me, this is not renewing the mind. To me, this is what takes place as the newly born again one matures in Christ. This is growing up in Christ.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

ok. New man is created by God and is perfect. In agreement.

Not in agreement here.

I believe God gives the increase. God works within us and as we continue in the new man, the growth / increase is more rapid. If we neglect to put on the new man (remain conformed to this world), the new man within remains in spiritual infancy.

I believe we are more in agreement than we think and that we just have a different way of wording things. The only place in scripture where it speaks of "God gives the increase" is when Paul speaks of feeding someone the word, somebody else coming along and watering but God gives the increase . . when we lead someone to the word - we plant the seed, someone else may water but it is always God that gives the increase. (1 Cor. 3:6) In the totality of scriptures speaking about renewing the mind - putting off the old and putting on the new - which is renewing the mind - nothing is said about God giving the increase. Spiritual growth comes about the more we renew our mind - put off the old and put on the new.

I see the command as be not conformed to this world i.e. put off the old man, but be ye transformed i.e. put on the new man. The renewing of your mind occurs because inherent in the new man is that which is "different from that which had been formerly" --- the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16).

What was in our mind before we were born again? The old man. When we were born again the Spirit created in us has the mind of Christ - the new man. The old man's thought processes have to be renewed and made different from that which had been formerly - basically what you are saying.

We mature in the new man as we continue to walk in the new man, feeding on the Word of God, continuing in prayer, doing those things we are instructed to do.

If we do not put off the old man, the new man remains spiritually under-developed --- still there, but an infant.

Agreed.

We become more like Christ in the new man. And yes, it is a work in process. Looking at the life of the Vine (John 15), Father prunes and cleanses and removes all the fleshly debris which is not beneficial to us. Additionally, the Lord Jesus Christ infuses us with His sap and we become fruit-bearing branches in Him.

Our new man is Christ is us - can't get any more "like Christ" than we are in the new man. Yes, we become more like Christ in our day to day living as we put off the old and put on the new in our thought processes enabling us to walk in the Spirit.

I think a "carnal" Christian is the believer who does not put off the old man. The believer who continues to live according to who he or she was in Adam. And the carnal Christian will have the works of the flesh evidenced in his/her life. That is the indicator that he/she has not put off the old man and put on the new man.

I agree . . . doesn't mean they aren't working on it though.

The renewed mind is part of the new man. You have already agreed that the "renewed mind" is "that which is different from that which had been formerly". The renewed mind is the mind of Christ. Does the mind of Christ have to be "renewed"? No! The mind of Christ is the renewed mind. I do not think I am communicating this very well and I know it would be easier if we were sitting face to face at a table with our bibles and other reference material in front of us (and some coffee!!!).

The renewed mind is replacing our old thought habits with the new mind of our Spirit, i.e. the mind of Christ. The Spirit, i.e. the mind of Christ (the new man) is different from that which was formerly, the flesh, the old man. So in order to renew our minds and not be conformed to this world, we must put off the old man and put on the new man, i.e. renew our minds. I think this is the only part we are having trouble communicating. I know that when I was born again - Spirit was born within me and I became a partaker of the divine nature. As you said, the mind of Christ is inherent in that new man, that divine nature, Spirit that was born within me BUT my mind - the thoughts I have had all this time before the new birth does not automatically change - it takes renewing.

The reason our thoughts are "upgraded" is because the mind of Christ is now within us. As we continue in the new man, that mind of Christ is with us to direct us.

Our thoughts are only "upgraded" to the degree that we renew our minds. I agree that when we are weak, we need God's strength and guidance.

We cannot "change our character". The old man cannot be fixed. That is why God gives the new man.

The inner man does more than "influence" us toward godliness. The inner man is that divine nature which allows us to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Pe 1:4).

The old man does more than "influence" us toward selfishness. The old man is "selfish". It is interested in only one thing --- to feed itself through fulfilling all its lusts.

What do you mean the old man can't be fixed? Our character can't be changed? The old man can be put to death day by day as we renew our minds and become more like Christ. Where we once automatically became angry - we learn forgiveness, where we once were selfish - we learn to give, where we once were bitter and holding hurt feelings - we again learn forgiveness . . . That is a change of character. It is a great growing process. I believe that it is a process that will continue until Christ returns.

The verse from Galatians (the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would).

To me, this means that when I am walking in the new man, the old man cannot do the things it wants to do (which is a good thing).

On the other hand, when I am walking in the old man, the new man cannot do the things it wants to do (which is not a good thing).

So remain in the new man where the old man cannot do what it wants. Will the old man nudge the new man? You betcha. But we don't have to follow those nudges. We don't have to leave the new man. We can remain steadfast and unmoveable. And we have our Father Who will hold us to Him; we have our Lord Jesus Christ Who will help us with our burdens so that we remain yoked to Him.

Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh - This is our desire.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and Spirit against the flesh - we are still in the flesh, and we have been born again of the Spirit - we still have our flesh nature, and now we partake of the divine nature
these are contrary one to the other - the flesh (old man); the Spirit (new man)
so that you cannot do the things that you would - sometimes still the flesh wins out. We have good intentions but we don't always do what we should.

Yes, the best scenario is to always walk in the Spirit. I've never heard of it being as easy as you make it out to be - if we are to be honest and realistic.

Again, I see it a little differently than you.

I see it as:

If we do not put off the old man, we can read the word of God all day long, every day, and our thinking will not be in alignment and we will NOT grow.

If we put on the new man, we can read the word of God all day long, every day, and our thinking will be in alignment and we WILL grow.

That is exactly what I said: We can read the word of God all day long, every day, but if we do not apply it, if we do not renew (upgrade) our thinking to be in alignment, if we do not put off the old man and put on the new man created in righteousness - we will NOT grow.

Only because the mind of Christ (the renewed mind) is inherent in the new man.

It's not that the mind of the old man is changed in any way, shape, or form as we put on the new man. We all know that when we slip back into who we were in Adam, the same works of the flesh are exhibited in our life. It's not like those works of the flesh are cleaned up a little. Nope. They're just as filthy. No change to the old man.

Happens to all of us. We will not be rid of this body of flesh in this lifetime. God understands this. In Psalm 103:13-14, He tells us Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

I just love God. He is so gracious and merciful toward us. What a great Father we have!

Exactly!!!
Yes, I struggle with the same things every believer struggles with. Looking forward to that day when I will see Him face to face because then (and only then) will I no longer struggle.

I think I see what you are saying - you are relating the "renewed mind" or "renewing your mind" with that of the new mind, the mind of Christ, we have inherent in the new birth, the Spirit created in us. We are to renew OUR minds . . Spirit was created in us - BUT OUR minds weren't changed . . . that is what we have to renew or as I like to say "upgrade". As we renew OUR minds, the old man is changed - someone that use to steal, doesn't want to steal anymore. Someone who treated people terribly doesn't want to treat people bad but instead wants to walk in love. Our actions, our thoughts line up with what is in the word of God and we begin to exhibit outwardly that new man that was born within.

Again, I see it a little differently ---

Anger, bitterness, unhospitable, selfish – these are all old man tendencies. All inherent in the old man.

So, if/when I see these things in my life, I know I am have not put off the old man and put on the new man.

Rather than trying to "clean up" these old man tendencies, put off the old man and put on the new man.

Then, we will not think more highly than we ought, we will be kindly affectionate and honor one another. We will not be slothful in business. We will be fervent in spirit. We will rejoice in hope, continue in prayer, give to the necessity of the saints. All these things are inherent in the new man.

The way to walk in the Spirit is inherent in the new man . . . the way to walk in the flesh is also inherent in man, (the old man ain't left the building) - exactly why we are told to put off the old and put on the new - as we put on the new we are cleaning up the old!!! - for we are still in the flesh.

All those things do not have to cause us to turn from who we are in Christ Jesus. We can see them (or hear, or feel, etc.). But we can count our relationship with the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ more crucial to us than the brief satisfaction we would get if we allow our fleshly inclinations to rule over us. In other words, die to self. Let it go.

The irate customer – see that they're irate, try to calm them. They are the ones with the problem, not you. Remain calm and peaceful. Sometimes the irate customer will calm down and sometimes they won't. But that is no reason to leave the shelter.

Do you work with the public? I do.

The car that cuts us off in traffic – I figure they're in a hurry. Also, I pray for the driver --- that they reach their destination on time and without incident.

Are you really like this ALL the time? mmmm . . . almost perfect. My first reaction mentally initially is to get angry but then I change my thinking and get back in alignment with the word of God and ask for forgiveness if I let my anger get a little out of hand.

The person whose personality grates on our nerves – first try to figure out why. Is there a spiritual issue in that person? If it's not spiritual, God can work within us so that person doesn't bother us as much.

I worked with a girl for 3 years and it just didn't work - another opening came up in the same department and I moved to that position. We still work together but not as closely - we are better now.

We get away from walking in the flesh by putting off the old man and putting on the new man. Then (and only then) are our minds renewed. Old man cannot be renewed. that's why God gave the new man ... because old man cannot be fixed.

Our thoughts are renewed only in the new man because in the new man we think with the mind of Christ. In the old man, we think with the mind of Adam.

As far as casting down imaginations, etc. There is no way the old man is capable of doing any of the things iterated in 2 Cor 10:5. These are all new man victories.

Look at the verses just before 2 Cor 10:5:

2 Corinthians 10:

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


Vs 3 ― even though the verse says we walk in the flesh I see verse 3 as having put off the old man. I see this verse as having put on the new man, yet having this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us (2 Cor 4:7).

So we have this treasure in earthen vessels and we war a spiritual warfare.

Vs 4 ― our weapons are not carnal (fleshly) but mighty through God.

Vs 5 ― casting down imaginations, every high thing that exalts against the knowledge of God, bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ ― all new man realities. Old man cannot do this no matter how many bible verses we put in. If we do not put off the old man, we will never cast down or bring into captivity. These things are simply beyond the scope of old man capabilities.

I see a lot of the spiritual battle as being mostly between our ears. We have the "divine nature" on one shoulder, the "flesh nature" on the other shoulder. EACH is trying to tell us what to do, what not to do, how to behave . . .

We have to bring the new man to the forefront of our lives . . . we have to exhibit on the outside what has occurred on the inside - we have to shine as lights. In order to do that we have to change our way of thinking by putting off the old and putting on the new - renew our minds.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I believe we are more in agreement than we think and that we just have a different way of wording things. The only place in scripture where it speaks of "God gives the increase" is when Paul speaks of feeding someone the word, somebody else coming along and watering but God gives the increase . . when we lead someone to the word - we plant the seed, someone else may water but it is always God that gives the increase. (1 Cor. 3:6) In the totality of scriptures speaking about renewing the mind - putting off the old and putting on the new - which is renewing the mind - nothing is said about God giving the increase. Spiritual growth comes about the more we renew our mind - put off the old and put on the new.

Yeah. I think we have different terminology for the same thing.

As far as God bringing increase, I think of it as the Word being the good seed which is planted in the heart ... whether we hear it from someone speaking to us (as shown in the record in 1 Cor 3), or whether we read it. I believe it is God Who gives understanding to us as we hear or read His Word.

Have you ever read a section of Scripture and you've read it hundreds of times, but for some reason something just clicks and a whole section of Scripture just opens up? I believe that is God working in our hearts to bring increase to us.

Now, why that takes place after reading a section over and over and over, and it doesn't happen the first time we read it, I don't know. I have some thoughts about the reason, but the point is I believe it is God Who reveals these truths to us.

What was in our mind before we were born again? The old man. When we were born again the Spirit created in us has the mind of Christ - the new man. The old man's thought processes have to be renewed and made different from that which had been formerly - basically what you are saying.

The old man's thought processes will never be different from what they were prior to being born again.

The renewed mind is not the old man cleaned up a little with Bible verses.


On the one hand you say:

The Spirit created within us when we're born again has the mind of Christ​

And on the other hand you say:

The old man's thought processes have to be renewed.​

These two statements are diametrically opposed to each other. We are to reckon the old man dead. A dead man has no thought processes. If the old man's thought processes could be renewed, why would God go to all the trouble of creating the new man within?

Our new man is Christ is us - can't get any more "like Christ" than we are in the new man. Yes, we become more like Christ in our day to day living as we put off the old and put on the new in our thought processes enabling us to walk in the Spirit.

I think of it as a maturing process. From newly born again babe in Christ to mature in Christ. We'll never be fully like Him until we see Him as He is (it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is - 1 John 3:2).

The renewed mind is replacing our old thought habits with the new mind of our Spirit, i.e. the mind of Christ. The Spirit, i.e. the mind of Christ (the new man) is different from that which was formerly, the flesh, the old man. So in order to renew our minds and not be conformed to this world, we must put off the old man and put on the new man, i.e. renew our minds. I think this is the only part we are having trouble communicating. I know that when I was born again - Spirit was born within me and I became a partaker of the divine nature. As you said, the mind of Christ is inherent in that new man, that divine nature, Spirit that was born within me BUT my mind - the thoughts I have had all this time before the new birth does not automatically change - it takes renewing.

Again, to me that is maturing as opposed to the renewed mind.

The renewed mind is the mind of Christ and it is inherent within the new man. When we are first born again, we generally continue to live just as we had before we were born again.

As we mature in the new, we learn to walk (live our lives) more and more in light of who we are in Christ, as opposed to who we were in Adam.

Any time we turn from who we are in Christ and go back to living carnally, we have the same thoughts and habits we had before we were born again. The old man doesn't get cleaned up. Old man thoughts are just as bad as they were before we were born again; the works of the flesh aren't cleaned up (i.e. wrath is not less wrath, evil communication is not less evil, envy is not less envy).

Our thoughts are only "upgraded" to the degree that we renew our minds. I agree that when we are weak, we need God's strength and guidance.

Since the renewed mind is the mind of Christ, how do we "upgrade" that?

imho, there is no "upgrade" to the mind of Christ.

What do you mean the old man can't be fixed? Our character can't be changed? The old man can be put to death day by day as we renew our minds and become more like Christ.

Why do we put the old man to death day by day if the old man can be fixed?

Where we once automatically became angry - we learn forgiveness, where we once were selfish - we learn to give, where we once were bitter and holding hurt feelings - we again learn forgiveness . . . That is a change of character. It is a great growing process. I believe that it is a process that will continue until Christ returns.

Right. Do you think the forgiveness (rather than anger) is because the old man is cleaned up?

I think what you've described are characteristics / traits of the new man.

And, yes, as long as we're in these bodies, we'll always have to make the decision to put off the old man and put on the new man.

Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh - This is our desire.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and Spirit against the flesh - we are still in the flesh, and we have been born again of the Spirit - we still have our flesh nature, and now we partake of the divine nature
these are contrary one to the other - the flesh (old man); the Spirit (new man)
so that you cannot do the things that you would - sometimes still the flesh wins out. We have good intentions but we don't always do what we should.

Yes, the best scenario is to always walk in the Spirit. I've never heard of it being as easy as you make it out to be - if we are to be honest and realistic.

I never said it was easy. Our flesh will always make it difficult.

We have to deal with our own flesh. We have to deal with a worldly system that is set up to distract us. We have to deal with other people who have the same fleshly lusts and desires we have and may or may not be born again. Our Father has an enemy who attacks us and uses those who open themselves up to his influences to do so.

I know all this. I live in this world also.

But we also have a Father Who loves us and Who infuses us with strength so that we can endure. We have a Lord and Savior Who helps us. We have promises from Scripture which assure us that greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.

I think I see what you are saying - you are relating the "renewed mind" or "renewing your mind" with that of the new mind, the mind of Christ, we have inherent in the new birth, the Spirit created in us. We are to renew OUR minds . . Spirit was created in us - BUT OUR minds weren't changed . . . that is what we have to renew or as I like to say "upgrade". As we renew OUR minds, the old man is changed - someone that use to steal, doesn't want to steal anymore. Someone who treated people terribly doesn't want to treat people bad but instead wants to walk in love. Our actions, our thoughts line up with what is in the word of God and we begin to exhibit outwardly that new man that was born within.

The old man does not change. We are to reckon the old man dead.

The believer who used to steal and who doesn't want to steal any more —— Could that be because stealing is foreign to the new man?

The believer who wants to walk in love toward others —— Could that be because that is what the new man is designed to do?

You seem to think that it is the old man who quits stealing or who starts loving others when that is not the case at all.

Stealing is not something that would enter into the mind of the new man.

Treating someone poorly and not loving that person is not something the new man would do.

The reason we begin to exhibit outwardly that new man that was born within is because we have put off the old man. We have crucified the old man. We live in light of who we are in Christ. Would our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ steal something? No. The thought wouldn't even enter His mind.

The way to walk in the Spirit is inherent in the new man . . . the way to walk in the flesh is also inherent in man, (the old man ain't left the building) - exactly why we are told to put off the old and put on the new - as we put on the new we are cleaning up the old!!! - for we are still in the flesh.

The old is not cleaned up!!!

The old is to be reckoned dead, crucified with Christ.

Once the old is reckoned dead, we walk in newness of life. Not the old life cleaned up a bit. New life.

Are you really like this ALL the time? mmmm . . . almost perfect. My first reaction mentally initially is to get angry but then I change my thinking and get back in alignment with the word of God and ask for forgiveness if I let my anger get a little out of hand.

That's exactly what we're told to do.

And little by little, we start to recognize those things that draw us away from God. And we can decide we'd rather stay with Him and not indulge in the flesh. I like the verse in Rom 6 that says what fruit had ye in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? (vs 21).

I worked with a girl for 3 years and it just didn't work - another opening came up in the same department and I moved to that position. We still work together but not as closely - we are better now.

Yeah. Been there. Done that.

I've worked with people who are spiritually wicked. Awful. God saw me through. And even as they attacked me (and others in the department), I prayed for them. I felt sorry for them … still do. I don't like to see them in bondage. Really sad. They are more tormented than anything they ever did to me (and they did a lot).

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yeah. I think we have different terminology for the same thing.

As far as God bringing increase, I think of it as the Word being the good seed which is planted in the heart ... whether we hear it from someone speaking to us (as shown in the record in 1 Cor 3), or whether we read it. I believe it is God Who gives understanding to us as we hear or read His Word.

Have you ever read a section of Scripture and you've read it hundreds of times, but for some reason something just clicks and a whole section of Scripture just opens up? I believe that is God working in our hearts to bring increase to us.

Now, why that takes place after reading a section over and over and over, and it doesn't happen the first time we read it, I don't know. I have some thoughts about the reason, but the point is I believe it is God Who reveals these truths to us.

The old man's thought processes will never be different from what they were prior to being born again.

The renewed mind is not the old man cleaned up a little with Bible verses.

On the one hand you say:

The Spirit created within us when we're born again has the mind of Christ
​

And on the other hand you say:

The old man's thought processes have to be renewed.
​

These two statements are diametrically opposed to each other. We are to reckon the old man dead. A dead man has no thought processes. If the old man's thought processes could be renewed, why would God go to all the trouble of creating the new man within?

I think of it as a maturing process. From newly born again babe in Christ to mature in Christ. We'll never be fully like Him until we see Him as He is (it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is - 1 John 3:2).

Again, to me that is maturing as opposed to the renewed mind.

The renewed mind is the mind of Christ and it is inherent within the new man. When we are first born again, we generally continue to live just as we had before we were born again.

As we mature in the new, we learn to walk (live our lives) more and more in light of who we are in Christ, as opposed to who we were in Adam.

Any time we turn from who we are in Christ and go back to living carnally, we have the same thoughts and habits we had before we were born again. The old man doesn't get cleaned up. Old man thoughts are just as bad as they were before we were born again; the works of the flesh aren't cleaned up (i.e. wrath is not less wrath, evil communication is not less evil, envy is not less envy).

Since the renewed mind is the mind of Christ, how do we "upgrade" that?

imho, there is no "upgrade" to the mind of Christ.

Why do we put the old man to death day by day if the old man can be fixed?

Right. Do you think the forgiveness (rather than anger) is because the old man is cleaned up?

I think what you've described are characteristics / traits of the new man.

And, yes, as long as we're in these bodies, we'll always have to make the decision to put off the old man and put on the new man.

I never said it was easy. Our flesh will always make it difficult.

We have to deal with our own flesh. We have to deal with a worldly system that is set up to distract us. We have to deal with other people who have the same fleshly lusts and desires we have and may or may not be born again. Our Father has an enemy who attacks us and uses those who open themselves up to his influences to do so.

I know all this. I live in this world also.

But we also have a Father Who loves us and Who infuses us with strength so that we can endure. We have a Lord and Savior Who helps us. We have promises from Scripture which assure us that greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.

The old man does not change. We are to reckon the old man dead.

The believer who used to steal and who doesn't want to steal any more —— Could that be because stealing is foreign to the new man?

The believer who wants to walk in love toward others —— Could that be because that is what the new man is designed to do?

You seem to think that it is the old man who quits stealing or who starts loving others when that is not the case at all.

Stealing is not something that would enter into the mind of the new man.

Treating someone poorly and not loving that person is not something the new man would do.

The reason we begin to exhibit outwardly that new man that was born within is because we have put off the old man. We have crucified the old man. We live in light of who we are in Christ. Would our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ steal something? No. The thought wouldn't even enter His mind.

The old is not cleaned up!!!

The old is to be reckoned dead, crucified with Christ.

Once the old is reckoned dead, we walk in newness of life. Not the old life cleaned up a bit. New life.

That's exactly what we're told to do.

And little by little, we start to recognize those things that draw us away from God. And we can decide we'd rather stay with Him and not indulge in the flesh. I like the verse in Rom 6 that says what fruit had ye in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? (vs 21).

Yeah. Been there. Done that.

I've worked with people who are spiritually wicked. Awful. God saw me through. And even as they attacked me (and others in the department), I prayed for them. I felt sorry for them … still do. I don't like to see them in bondage. Really sad. They are more tormented than anything they ever did to me (and they did a lot).

So I won't have to address each item and repeat myself this is how I see it. Bottom line . . . when I was born again - MY MIND was not born again - I still have the SAME MIND I had before I was born again. (mind - the intellect, i.e. mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will) In order to change MY MIND to know what that good and acceptable and perfect will of God is - I have to renew MY MIND.

I am a new creation - spiritually but I still live in the flesh. I have a divine nature and I have a fleshly nature - these two are contrary one to the other so I have to renew MY MIND, that wasn't born again, to be in alignment and harmony with my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ which is reckoning myself dead, i.e. learning to walk in the Spirit and ignoring the flesh.

 

[unobtrusive]

So I won't have to address each item and repeat myself this is how I see it. Bottom line . . . when I was born again - MY MIND was not born again - I still have the SAME MIND I had before I was born again. (mind - the intellect, i.e. mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will) In order to change MY MIND to know what that good and acceptable and perfect will of God is - I have to renew MY MIND.

I am a new creation - spiritually but I still live in the flesh. I have a divine nature and I have a fleshly nature - these two are contrary one to the other so I have to renew MY MIND, that wasn't born again, to be in alignment and harmony with my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ which is reckoning myself dead, i.e. learning to walk in the Spirit and ignoring the flesh.

You explain things so clearly - looks like you have been sitting at the Master's feet being taught! It is very enjoyable to read your posts, and an inspiration to me as well.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

The renewing of the mind is not a "work" (labor) by the Believer. It is a act of Faith daily by the Believer placing their Faith in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus. This allows the Holy Spirit to do the work in us that needs to be done daily, i.e., progressive sanctification.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

The renewing of the mind is not a "work" (labor) by the Believer. It is a act of Faith daily by the Believer placing their Faith in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus. This allows the Holy Spirit to do the work in us that needs to be done daily, i.e., progressive sanctification.

The Apostle Paul said, " According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3:10-11).

As we grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18), we must remember our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 6:19). There can be no works in the temple. Only the Finished Work of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ can be added by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 3:18).

The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)

Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!

As we study the House of the Lord, the Temple that Solomon built (Type); all construction of the Temple were finished at a quarry, so there was no sound of hammer, ax, or any other iron tool heard in the House, while it was in building (1 Kings 6:7). The same with us, there must be no labor inside the Temple where the Holy Ghost dwells inside of us. Only the Finished Work that was done at the Calvary's Cross can be added to the Believer. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! Quiet please!

 

[unobtrusive]

The renewing of the mind is not a "work" (labor) by the Believer. It is a act of Faith daily by the Believer placing their Faith in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus. This allows the Holy Spirit to do the work in us that needs to be done daily, i.e., progressive sanctification.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:102)

This appears to me that we are supposed to take some initiative, beginning with the gift of faith that gives us the ability to assess and initiate things that are acceptable to God. How are we supposed to prove what is good and acceptable? At least proving what is acceptable is our responsibility as I read this. Faith without works is dead, isn't it?

Sometimes we concentrate so much on the death of Christ that we subconsciously neglect His resurrection. The resurrection made the difference to give faith and a starting point of renewing the mind.

1 Corinthians 15:12-20
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Through Christ's resurrection, we have been given a "wake up call" so that we can begin to do what our Saviour wants us to do. Being "born again" is the beginning, not the ending.

 

[unobtrusive]

As we grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18), we must remember our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 6:19). There can be no works in the temple. Only the Finished Work of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ can be added by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 3:18).

If "There can be no works in the temple," and we are the temple, how on earth are we supposed to present our "bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is *your reasonable service?" (Romans 12:1b)

It's *our reasonable service. Like '*we' have been given the responsibility.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:102)

This appears to me that we are supposed to take some initiative, beginning with the gift of faith that gives us the ability to assess and initiate things that are acceptable to God. How are we supposed to prove what is good and acceptable? At least proving what is acceptable is our responsibility as I read this. Faith without works is dead, isn't it?

Sometimes we concentrate so much on the death of Christ that we subconsciously neglect His resurrection. The resurrection made the difference to give faith and a starting point of renewing the mind.

1 Corinthians 15:12-20
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Through Christ's resurrection, we have been given a "wake up call" so that we can begin to do what our Saviour wants us to do. Being "born again" is the beginning, not the ending.

The Holy Spirit only works between Christ and His Finished Work. He is the one that renews the mind, keeps all commandments, and all laws.

There is nothing within ourselves that any human being can produce that God will accept!

Remember, God said, "This is My Beloved Son who I Am well please." He never said that about us. The closest thing He said about us is, "without Faith it is impossible to please God."

It is imperative that a Believers Faith is exclusively in Christ and the Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, i.e., The Finished Work of Christ (Romans 8:2). Anything and everything else is during the same as Aaron's sons (Nadab & Abihu) by offering strange fire. (Lev. 10:1)

Christians offer strange fire when they change God's prescribed order of victory for sanctification (over sin, over the world, the flesh, and the Devil). Romans 8:2

Due to the fall, the flesh always wants to go beyond Gods way (Romans 8:1-2). The tree of the knowledge of good and evil does have good in it that Satan uses to deceive the Saints. The Apostle Paul said, "the good he had done deceived him (despite all of his efforts to live for the Lord by means of Law-keeping, he failed - for what the law could not do") Romans 8:3-4

The Law says do - Grace says done! He must increase, but I must decrease. John 3:30

 

[unobtrusive]

The Holy Spirit only works between Christ and His Finished Work. He is the one that renews the mind, keeps all commandments, and all laws.

There is nothing within ourselves that any human being can produce that God will accept!

Remember, God said, "This is My Beloved Son who I Am well please." He never said that about us. The closest thing He said about us is, "without Faith it is impossible to please God."

It is imperative that a Believers Faith is exclusively in Christ and the Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, i.e., The Finished Work of Christ (Romans 8:2). Anything and everything else is during the same as Aaron's sons (Nadab & Abihu) by offering strange fire. (Lev. 10:1)

Christians offer strange fire when they change God's prescribed order of victory for sanctification (over sin, over the world, the flesh, and the Devil). Romans 8:2

Due to the fall, the flesh always wants to go beyond Gods way (Romans 8:1-2). The tree of the knowledge of good and evil does have good in it that Satan uses to deceive the Saints. The Apostle Paul said, "the good he had done deceived him (despite all of his efforts to live for the Lord by means of Law-keeping, he failed - for what the law could not do") Romans 8:3-4

The Law says do - Grace says done! He must increase, but I must decrease. John 3:30

If what you present be true, why are we still here? Are we supposed to witness apathy because there's nothing we can do?

Faith without works is dead faith. That's what I see you are presenting. Faith and works go together just like the Holy Spirit and the Word go together.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

If what you present be true, why are we still here? Are we supposed to witness apathy because there's nothing we can do?

Enter into His rest by an act of Believing and receive all His benefits. This is how you pick up your cross and follow Jesus.

 

[unobtrusive]

Enter into His rest by an act of Believing and receive all His benefits. This is how you pick up your cross and follow Jesus.

Is adhering to the instructions given by the Word of God actually "works?"

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4)

Is picking up our cross on a daily basis actually "works?"

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23)

Is entering into his "rest" actually "works?"

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." (Hebrews 4:10-11)

"In all labor there is profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty. (Proverbs 14:23)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So I won't have to address each item and repeat myself this is how I see it. Bottom line . . . when I was born again - MY MIND was not born again - I still have the SAME MIND I had before I was born again. (mind - the intellect, i.e. mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will) In order to change MY MIND to know what that good and acceptable and perfect will of God is - I have to renew MY MIND.

I am a new creation - spiritually but I still live in the flesh. I have a divine nature and I have a fleshly nature - these two are contrary one to the other so I have to renew MY MIND, that wasn't born again, to be in alignment and harmony with my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ which is reckoning myself dead, i.e. learning to walk in the Spirit and ignoring the flesh.

k. I hope and pray that one day you will come to understand that the renewed mind is that mind of Christ which is inherent in the new man and that in order to live in light of the renewed mind the old man is to be put off.

very nice discussing this issue with you, peacefulbeliever.

have a blessed day!

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Is adhering to the instructions given by the Word of God actually "works?"

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4)

Is picking up our cross on a daily basis actually "works?"

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23)

Is entering into his "rest" actually "works?"

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." (Hebrews 4:10-11)

"In all labor there is profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty. (Proverbs 14:23)

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent. John 6:29

 

[unobtrusive]

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent. John 6:29

It was during the "feast of Passover," not Easter that Jesus fed about 5000 people. That was definitely the "works of God." In context, Jesus tells His disciples what to labour for, not physical meat, but spiritual meat. That spiritual meat that we labour for will "renew our mind." (renovate)

John 6
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Now, to top that off, Jesus actually uses the manna from heaven as a parable. That was the first manifestation of the Sabbath that Israel received.

What were they to do? Collect the manna according to the will of God. It all fits. With that, the happenings in John 6 don’t mention the renewing of the mind, does it?

 

[nddreamer]

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
Couldn't the phrase "the washing of regeneration" refer to the cleansing of our minds by the water or Word of God to become regenerated, renewed or a new creature? Couldn't this mean that if we read the Word of God and keep reading, that he will do the cleansing by the Holy Ghost that rests in all of us and is awakened and energized by our reading of the Word? So if the Holy Ghost is the power of God who dwells in us, then it all comes down to God, our savior, and we the recipients of his grace.

 

[unobtrusive]

The "works of God" require a response from us, His children. For example, He gave manna, the people were required to collect it. God did not plop it on their plates and say, "dig in!" God gave His Son as the means to have a relationship with mankind as He had designed it to be when He created us. We do, however, have to choose to accept that salvation. God acts - man responds.

Our human nature has a tendency to conform to the philosophy of our environment and this age in which we live. Unfortunately, this is in direct opposition to being transformed by the renewing of our minds that we "may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God" (Romans 12:2); that we are a demonstration of Philippians 2:5 - "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus."

Applying common sense to this issue makes an answer look obvious: if we were instantly given a transformed, renovated, renewed mind the moment we were born again, why is the Bible so full of instructions to help us as we grow (a word that indicates a passage of time) and mature in Christ?