Is the "renewing of the mind " our responcibility?

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, we are in view of God's mercy (those things spoken of in Romans 11:33-36) are to offer our bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable . . . .

YOU, or WE (subject implied) are not to be conformed to this world, i.e. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:12) I agree that we should resist the values and teachings of society and don't submit to them - Before being born again that is exactly what we did - went along with the crowd, so to speak. Now we are to change and that change comes about by renewing our minds to the knowledge of God in order to be transformed.

but be transformed by the renewing of YOUR mind. This is the change that God desires us to make. How is that transformation acquired? by the renewing of our minds. Since birth we have had a mind controlled by the old man, i.e. walking in the flesh. We now partake of the divine nature, the new man and our thoughts have to be changed to line up with what has been created by God on the inside.

We are becoming transformed (into the image of Christ) HOW? by renewing our minds. Being born again, you are a new creation - Where? inside - God has transformed you on the inside, i.e. heart. Your desire now is to serve God through obedience. That godly desire that has taken root in your heart has to move up to your brain - replacing the thinking of the old man with that of the new man - that is renewing your mind. Have your thought patterns automatically changed? If so, then why are we told to renew our minds in order for transformation to take place?
I may not be a scholar in English - I am surely not a Greek scholar but I do know a little about sentence structure. As you renew your mind you are proving what is that good, and acceptable and perfect will of God. What is the will of God? The Word of God - throughout the word of God we find the will of God for our lives. Our thought patterns must align with the Word of God to enable us to walk in the Spirit. As we renew our minds and walk accordingly, we prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God to ourselves and to others - we are transformed.

MarcR - I totally respect you and know from reading your post that you have a great amount of knowledge. All I know that God gave his word to the common man . . . if the common man can't understand what is written . . . what good is it? So, yes, I am a common lay person - I may not have it exactly right - but this is my understanding. I have proved it in my life - I know my thought patterns before I was born again . . . I know my thought patterns now and if I had not renewed my mind to the knowledge of God - I would be a very stunted Christian, probably even a carnal Christian. I am still working on areas in my life that are more "stubborn" but I am progressing - I am transforming from an ugly worm to a beautiful butterfly - my dust is being made into diamonds . . . .

I would like to respond to this portion of your post #100:

"but be transformed by the renewing of YOUR mind. This is the change that God desires us to make. How is that transformation acquired? by the renewing of our minds. Since birth we have had a mind controlled by the old man, i.e. walking in the flesh. We now partake of the divine nature, the new man and our thoughts have to be changed to line up with what has been created by God on the inside.

We are becoming transformed (into the image of Christ) HOW? by renewing our minds."​

Peacefulbeliever: "but be transformed by the renewing of YOUR mind."

Me: Please note that in the text, the word "YOUR" is supplied by the translators. The word "YOUR" is not part of the Greek text.

The words appear IN THE TEXT as follows:

alla = but

metamorphousthe = be transformed

tē = by the

anakainōsei = renewing

tou = of the

noos = mind​

In the NIV, ESV, NAS, KJV, ISV, the translators supplied the word "YOUR" before the word "MIND".



peacefulbeliever: "This is the change that God desires us to make."

Me: Yes. The change God asks of us is "be not conformed to this world". That is our part.



peacefulbeliever: "How is that transformation acquired? by the renewing of our minds."

Me: A couple of days ago, you agreed that the renewing of the mind is "renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly (Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance)".

The mind of Christ is the "other and different from that which had been formerly".

It is not that we put "other and different" thoughts into "that which had been formerly".

God creates within us that new man and the new man includes a new mind that is "other and different from that which had been formerly".

That is how the transformation is acquired.



peacefulbeliever: "Since birth we have had a mind controlled by the old man, i.e. walking in the flesh. We now partake of the divine nature, the new man and our thoughts have to be changed to line up with what has been created by God on the inside."

Me: The "divine nature, the new man" comes equipped with the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ, "created by God on the inside" is already lined up.

As we are walking in light of the divine nature, the new man, if / when our old fleshly thoughts come in, we choose to follow the instruction be not conformed to this world and we remain steadfast and unmovable in the new man (and thereby transformed by the renewing of the mind).



peacefulbeliever: "We are becoming transformed (into the image of Christ) HOW? by renewing our minds.

Me: Actually, we are being conformed to the image of Christ (Rom 8:29). God is forming us, molding us (from the inside out).

Our part in the process is to let go of that which God wants to remove from us. What happens when we don't let go of that which God is trying to prune from us? We remain conformed to this world.

Look, I know it's not easy. I know it's hard to die to self. But when we do, and we allow God to remove from us those things which are not beneficial to us, we find that we do grow spiritually in that new man. That is how we are conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[unobtrusive]

I would like to respond to this portion of your post #100:

"but be transformed by the renewing of YOUR mind. This is the change that God desires us to make. How is that transformation acquired? by the renewing of our minds. Since birth we have had a mind controlled by the old man, i.e. walking in the flesh. We now partake of the divine nature, the new man and our thoughts have to be changed to line up with what has been created by God on the inside.

We are becoming transformed (into the image of Christ) HOW? by renewing our minds."​

Peacefulbeliever: "but be transformed by the renewing of YOUR mind."

Me: Please note that in the text, the word "YOUR" is supplied by the translators. The word "YOUR" is not part of the Greek text.

The words appear IN THE TEXT as follows:

alla = but

metamorphousthe = be transformed

tē = by the

anakainōsei = renewing

tou = of the

noos = mind​

In the NIV, ESV, NAS, KJV, ISV, the translators supplied the word "YOUR" before the word "MIND"....

I have an Aramaic-English New Testament (not one of the old translations from the early 1900s but the newer more accurate version copyrighted several times 2008-2012) that I often use for reference. In it there are about 400 pages of "Appendix" articles, one of which goes into detail about the writing of Paul's epistles. In a nutshell, the epistles were all translated into Greek from their original Aramaic.

This scripture, Romans 12:2 reads like this in the AENT -- "And be not conformed to this world; but be you transformed by the renovation of your minds: and discern you what is the good and acceptable and perfect pleasure of Elohim." As you can see, the "your" is in there.

Just one more interesting note I have found is that when the word "you" is used it is talking about an individual and when "ye" is used, it is a group of people, like a congregation. I can't remember where I read that but will see if I can find it again if you wish.

Lastly, I appreciate your contribution to this discussion and thank you for presenting your thoughts kindly.

 

[MarcR]

Yes, we are in view of God's mercy (those things spoken of in Romans 11:33-36) are to offer our bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable . . . .

YOU, or WE (subject implied) are not to be conformed to this world, i.e. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:12) I agree that we should resist the values and teachings of society and don't submit to them - Before being born again that is exactly what we did - went along with the crowd, so to speak. Now we are to change and that change comes about by renewing our minds to the knowledge of God in order to be transformed.

but be transformed by the renewing of YOUR mind. This is the change that God desires us to make. How is that transformation acquired? by the renewing of our minds. Since birth we have had a mind controlled by the old man, i.e. walking in the flesh. We now partake of the divine nature, the new man and our thoughts have to be changed to line up with what has been created by God on the inside.

We are becoming transformed (into the image of Christ) HOW? by renewing our minds. Being born again, you are a new creation - Where? inside - God has transformed you on the inside, i.e. heart. Your desire now is to serve God through obedience. That godly desire that has taken root in your heart has to move up to your brain - replacing the thinking of the old man with that of the new man - that is renewing your mind. Have your thought patterns automatically changed? If so, then why are we told to renew our minds in order for transformation to take place?
I may not be a scholar in English - I am surely not a Greek scholar but I do know a little about sentence structure. As you renew your mind you are proving what is that good, and acceptable and perfect will of God. What is the will of God? The Word of God - throughout the word of God we find the will of God for our lives. Our thought patterns must align with the Word of God to enable us to walk in the Spirit. As we renew our minds and walk accordingly, we prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God to ourselves and to others - we are transformed.

MarcR - I totally respect you and know from reading your post that you have a great amount of knowledge. All I know that God gave his word to the common man . . . if the common man can't understand what is written . . . what good is it? So, yes, I am a common lay person - I may not have it exactly right - but this is my understanding. I have proved it in my life - I know my thought patterns before I was born again . . . I know my thought patterns now and if I had not renewed my mind to the knowledge of God - I would be a very stunted Christian, probably even a carnal Christian. I am still working on areas in my life that are more "stubborn" but I am progressing - I am transforming from an ugly worm to a beautiful butterfly - my dust is being made into diamonds . . . .

You argue your position very well. I certainly agree that if you see this as your responsibility, it is; but only because you believe it is. I base my arguments mostly on a lifelong love of and study of linguistics. You argue from your heart.

I'm not sure which is the better approach; but I cant fault yours.

The only problem with ignoring basic rules of grammar is that we are then no longer speaking the same language regardless the two may be.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I have an Aramaic-English New Testament (not one of the old translations from the early 1900s but the newer more accurate version copyrighted several times 2008-2012) that I often use for reference. In it there are about 400 pages of "Appendix" articles, one of which goes into detail about the writing of Paul's epistles. In a nutshell, the epistles were all translated into Greek from their original Aramaic.

This scripture, Romans 12:2 reads like this in the AENT -- "And be not conformed to this world; but be you transformed by the renovation of your minds: and discern you what is the good and acceptable and perfect pleasure of Elohim." As you can see, the "your" is in there.

I understand. I believe the new testament portion of the King James Bible was translated from the Greek and the old testament portion was translated from the Hebrew and Aramaic.

There are several different Greek versions of Rom 12:2 here: Romans 12:2 Parallel Greek Texts

Each text shows the words as I posted in #101:

ἀλλὰ = alla = but

μεταμορφοῦσθε = metamorphousthe = be transformed

τῇ = tē = by the

ἀνακαινώσει = anakainōsei = renewing

τοῦ = tou = of the

νοός = noos = mind

Just one more interesting note I have found is that when the word "you" is used it is talking about an individual and when "ye" is used, it is a group of people, like a congregation. I can't remember where I read that but will see if I can find it again if you wish.

Yes. I am aware of this fact.

Lastly, I appreciate your contribution to this discussion and thank you for presenting your thoughts kindly.

You're welcome. You, as well, have been kind and considerate and I appreciate that very much.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I would like to respond to this portion of your post #100:

"but be transformed by the renewing of YOUR mind. This is the change that God desires us to make. How is that transformation acquired? by the renewing of our minds. Since birth we have had a mind controlled by the old man, i.e. walking in the flesh. We now partake of the divine nature, the new man and our thoughts have to be changed to line up with what has been created by God on the inside.

We are becoming transformed (into the image of Christ) HOW? by renewing our minds."​

Peacefulbeliever: "but be transformed by the renewing of YOUR mind."

Me: Please note that in the text, the word "YOUR" is supplied by the translators. The word "YOUR" is not part of the Greek text.

The words appear IN THE TEXT as follows:

alla = but

metamorphousthe = be transformed

tē = by the

anakainōsei = renewing

tou = of the

noos = mind
​

In the NIV, ESV, NAS, KJV, ISV, the translators supplied the word "YOUR" before the word "MIND".

Usually in the KJV, if a word is added to the text it is italicized. In my KJV - "your" is not italicized.

This is what is in The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament:
Romans 12:2 καὶ [And]. . . μὴ [not] . . . συσχηματίζεσθε [fashion yourselves] . . . τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ [to this age] . . . ἀλλὰ [but] . . μεταμορφοῦσθε [be transformed] . . τῇ [by the] . . ἀνακαινώσει [renewing] . . τοῦ νοός ὑμῶν [of your mind] . . εἰς [for] . . τὸ δοκιμάζειν [to prove] . . ὑμᾶς [by you]
τί [what (is)] . . τὸ θέλημα [will] . . τοῦ [of] . . θεοῦ [God] . . τὸ [the] . . ἀγαθὸν [good] . . καὶ [and]
εὐάρεστον [well-pleasing] . . καὶ [and] . . τέλειον [perfect] -- "your" does seem to be in the text.

peacefulbeliever: "This is the change that God desires us to make."

Me: Yes. The change God asks of us is "be not conformed to this world". That is our part.

peacefulbeliever: "How is that transformation acquired? by the renewing of our minds."

Me: A couple of days ago, you agreed that the renewing of the mind is "renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly (Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance)".

The mind of Christ is the "other and different from that which had been formerly". It is not that we put "other and different" thoughts into "that which had been formerly".

God creates within us that new man and the new man includes a new mind that is "other and different from that which had been formerly".That is how the transformation is acquired.

renewing the mind - a making and different from that which had been formerly - What did I have formerly in my mind? . . . thoughts of the world; i.e. I was conformed to this world. Now, being born again I have to "make different what had been formerly" and that is done by renewing my mind. Replacing worldly thoughts with godly thoughts which will transform me from my former way of thinking and living to thinking and living a godly life.

peacefulbeliever: "Since birth we have had a mind controlled by the old man, i.e. walking in the flesh. We now partake of the divine nature, the new man and our thoughts have to be changed to line up with what has been created by God on the inside."

Me: The "divine nature, the new man" comes equipped with the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ, "created by God on the inside" is already lined up.

As we are walking in light of the divine nature, the new man, if / when our old fleshly thoughts come in, we choose to follow the instruction be not conformed to this world and we remain steadfast and unmovable in the new man (and thereby transformed by the renewing of the mind).

And that is putting off the old man and putting on the new man, i.e. renewing the mind. My mind, my former way of thinking was not changed when I was born again therefore I have to make "different that which was formerly" - accomplished by renewing my mind.

peacefulbeliever: "We are becoming transformed (into the image of Christ) HOW? by renewing our minds.

Me: Actually, we are being conformed to the image of Christ (Rom 8:29). God is forming us, molding us (from the inside out).

Our part in the process is to let go of that which God wants to remove from us. What happens when we don't let go of that which God is trying to prune from us? We remain conformed to this world.

Romans 8:29 conformed - having the same form as another, similar, conformed to; from syn meaning with and morphe meaning 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; 2) external appearance

In God's eyes, I am already conformed to the image of Christ - that would be what he looks upon, the Spirit He created in me which is perfect. Now I have to renew my mind to bring the "Christ in me" to the outside, i.e. external appearance.

Look, I know it's not easy. I know it's hard to die to self. But when we do, and we allow God to remove from us those things which are not beneficial to us, we find that we do grow spiritually in that new man. That is how we are conformed to the image of Christ.

I can tell you that if I just sat back and did nothing, saying to myself - I am just going to let God remove these bad thoughts, things that are not beneficial to me - nothing would happen. I am not saying that God cannot to that for I am sure he can but there are things he tells me to do that if I don't do - I will not grow - nothing in me would change to reflect what God has performed inside me. Which is exactly why he tells me to renew my mind - change the thoughts I had formerly to different thoughts that reflect that of the new man. I reckon myself dead by putting off the old and putting on the new . . . walk in newness of life.

Thanks for all your input - I do appreciate it. God bless.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I would like to add that this word conformed in Romans 8:29 is not the same as in the context of Romans 12:2

conformed - symmorphos - having the same form as another, similar, conformed to; from syn meaning with and morphe meaning 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; 2) external appearance . . . I don't believe that we fully realize this "conformed" until 1 John 3:2 . . . Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Be not conformed to this world is syschematizo - to conform one's self (i.e. one's mind and character) to another's pattern (fashion one's self according to) from schema - the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life . . .

So we are not to be conformed to this world in our manner of life, our habits in our mind and character. In order to not be conformed to this world we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds . . . putting off the old and putting on the new - which will cause us to be transformed in our mind and character - which is a making and different from that which had been formerly.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Usually in the KJV, if a word is added to the text it is italicized. In my KJV - "your" is not italicized.

This is what is in The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament:
Romans 12:2 καὶ [And]. . . μὴ [not] . . . συσχηματίζεσθε [fashion yourselves] . . . τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ [to this age] . . . ἀλλὰ [but] . . μεταμορφοῦσθε [be transformed] . . τῇ [by the] . . ἀνακαινώσει [renewing] . . τοῦ νοός ὑμῶν [of your mind] . . εἰς [for] . . τὸ δοκιμάζειν [to prove] . . ὑμᾶς [by you]
τί [what (is)] . . τὸ θέλημα [will] . . τοῦ [of] . . θεοῦ [God] . . τὸ [the] . . ἀγαθὸν [good] . . καὶ [and]
εὐάρεστον [well-pleasing] . . καὶ [and] . . τέλειον [perfect] -- "your" does seem to be in the text.

The word highlighted above ("ὑμῶν") does not appear in any of the texts found at the link I referenced in Post #104.

All the texts at the link indicate as follows:

Romans 12:2 καὶ [And]. . . μὴ [not]. . . συσχηματίζεσθε [fashion yourselves]. . .
τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ [to this age]. . . ἀλλὰ [but]. . . μεταμορφοῦσθε [be transformed]. . .
τῇ [by the]. . . ἀνακαινώσει [renewing]. . . τοῦ νοός [of the mind]. . . εἰς [for]. . .
τὸ δοκιμάζειν [to prove]. . . ὑμᾶς [by you]. . . τί [what (is)]. . . τὸ θέλημα [will]. . .
τοῦ [of]. . . θεοῦ [God]. . . τὸ [the]. . . ἀγαθὸν [good]. . . καὶ [and]. . .
εὐάρεστον [well-pleasing]. . . καὶ [and]. . . τέλειον [perfect]

τοῦ νοός

Strong's Concordance, NAS Exhaustive Concordance both state the definition of τοῦ is "the"; and according Thayer's Greek Lexicon, τοῦ "corresponds to our definite article the".

renewing the mind - a making and different from that which had been formerly - What did I have formerly in my mind? . . . thoughts of the world; i.e. I was conformed to this world. Now, being born again I have to "make different what had been formerly" and that is done by renewing my mind. Replacing worldly thoughts with godly thoughts which will transform me from my former way of thinking and living to thinking and living a godly life.

Renewing the mind is more than exchanging the thoughts of the world with Bible verses while remaining in the old man (not putting the old man off).

The mind of man thinks worldly thoughts.

The mind of Christ thinks Godly thoughts.

Put off the old man wherein worldly thoughts reside.

Put on the new man wherein the mind of Christ resides.

And if / when worldly things tug at us, remain in the new man. Recognize the lust of the flesh for what it is, continue in the new man, and continue in that transformed, renewed, good, acceptable, and perfect, Will of God. God promises to perfect, stablish, strengthen, and settle us as we endure the onslaught of the adversary in our lives (1 Peter 5:6-11).

And that is putting off the old man and putting on the new man, i.e. renewing the mind. My mind, my former way of thinking was not changed when I was born again therefore I have to make "different that which was formerly" - accomplished by renewing my mind.

Yes. Putting on the new man is renewing the mind because inherent in the new man is the mind of Christ ... that mind which is "other and different from that which was formerly".

The mind of Christ is a completely new and different mind.


The mind of Christ is not exchanging evil thoughts with Bible verses, yet remaining in the old man.

Maybe that is not what you are saying when you say "my former way of thinking was not changed when I was born again therefore I have to make "different that which was formerly" - accomplished by renewing my mind". But that is what I understand from what you are saying. Please correct me if I am mistaken. Thank you.

Romans 8:29 conformed - having the same form as another, similar, conformed to; from syn meaning with and morphe meaning 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; 2) external appearance

In God's eyes, I am already conformed to the image of Christ - that would be what he looks upon, the Spirit He created in me which is perfect. Now I have to renew my mind to bring the "Christ in me" to the outside, i.e. external appearance.

So when we read John 15 and see the Husbandman purges (to cleanse, of filth impurity, etc., to prune trees and vines from useless shoots) the branch, God is not really doing that? And we are pruning ourselves?

The way I see it is God cleanses and removes those things which are detrimental to us. However, we need to let them go. We are not to hang on to what God wants to rid from our lives; nor are we to allow to grow back that which God has pruned from us.

The reason we go through the same things over and over is not because God is not cleansing, or that God is not pruning, but because we either hold on to that which God is trying to remove, or we go back and re-grow that dead wood God removed.

That's the way I see and understand some of the why's and wherefore's of this fleshly existence.

I can tell you that if I just sat back and did nothing, saying to myself - I am just going to let God remove these bad thoughts, things that are not beneficial to me - nothing would happen. I am not saying that God cannot to that for I am sure he can but there are things he tells me to do that if I don't do - I will not grow - nothing in me would change to reflect what God has performed inside me. Which is exactly why he tells me to renew my mind - change the thoughts I had formerly to different thoughts that reflect that of the new man. I reckon myself dead by putting off the old and putting on the new . . . walk in newness of life.

We don't just "sit back and do nothing". We put off the old man and put on the new man.

Here are the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like.

We will not find the works of the flesh exhibited in our lives if / when we put on the new man. Why? Because these things are not the nature of the new man.


Here is the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

We will not find the fruit of the spirit revealed in our lives if / when we do not put off the old man. Why? Because these things are not the nature of the old man.

Thanks for all your input - I do appreciate it. God bless.

You, as well.

I know it is a little more difficult to communicate through our keyboards in an online forum. And it seems as if we keep repeating ourselves, but I believe we're communicating effectively.

And we may not ever come to agreement over this issue and that's okay. We still love each other as members in particular in the Body of Christ.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I would like to add that this word conformed in Romans 8:29 is not the same as in the context of Romans 12:2

conformed - symmorphos - having the same form as another, similar, conformed to; from syn meaning with and morphe meaning 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; 2) external appearance . . . I don't believe that we fully realize this "conformed" until 1 John 3:2 . . . Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Be not conformed to this world is syschematizo - to conform one's self (i.e. one's mind and character) to another's pattern (fashion one's self according to) from schema - the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life . . .

So we are not to be conformed to this world in our manner of life, our habits in our mind and character. In order to not be conformed to this world we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds . . . putting off the old and putting on the new - which will cause us to be transformed in our mind and character - which is a making and different from that which had been formerly.

Right.

symmorphos is used in the following verses:

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed [symmorphos] to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many children.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto [symmorphos] His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.


Something God does to us.




syschematizo is used in the following verses:

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed [syschematizo] to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good,a nd acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves [syschematizo] according to the former lusts in your ignorance


Something we are instructed to do.


Thanks for clarifying.

 

[pottersclay]

King James Version
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The word highlighted above ("ὑμῶν") does not appear in any of the texts found at the link I referenced in Post #104.

All the texts at the link indicate as follows:

Romans 12:2 καὶ [And]. . . μὴ [not]. . . συσχηματίζεσθε [fashion yourselves]. . .
τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ [to this age]. . . ἀλλὰ [but]. . . μεταμορφοῦσθε [be transformed]. . .
τῇ [by the]. . . ἀνακαινώσει [renewing]. . . τοῦ νοός [of the mind]. . . εἰς [for]. . .
τὸ δοκιμάζειν [to prove]. . . ὑμᾶς [by you]. . . τί [what (is)]. . . τὸ θέλημα [will]. . .
τοῦ [of]. . . θεοῦ [God]. . . τὸ [the]. . . ἀγαθὸν [good]. . . καὶ [and]. . .
εὐάρεστον [well-pleasing]. . . καὶ [and]. . . τέλειον [perfect]

τοῦ νοός

Strong's Concordance, NAS Exhaustive Concordance both state the definition of τοῦ is "the"; and according Thayer's Greek Lexicon, τοῦ "corresponds to our definite article the".

When I posted the verse in Greek, I used Strong's online Concordance then used my Interlinear Greek-English New Testament with Lexicon both of which had "your". After I posted I checked my Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English & Greek New Testament - now this had the use of "the" instead of "your". The thing is that doesn't change anything - Be ye transformed by the renewing of the mind - who else's mind are you going to renew but your own?

Renewing the mind is more than exchanging the thoughts of the world with Bible verses while remaining in the old man (not putting the old man off).

The mind of man thinks worldly thoughts.

The mind of Christ thinks Godly thoughts.

Put off the old man wherein worldly thoughts reside.

Put on the new man wherein the mind of Christ resides.

And if / when worldly things tug at us, remain in the new man. Recognize the lust of the flesh for what it is, continue in the new man, and continue in that transformed, renewed, good, acceptable, and perfect, Will of God. God promises to perfect, stablish, strengthen, and settle us as we endure the onslaught of the adversary in our lives (1 Peter 5:6-11).
Yes. Putting on the new man is renewing the mind because inherent in the new man is the mind of Christ ... that mind which is "other and different from that which was formerly".

The mind of Christ is a completely new and different mind.

The mind of Christ is not exchanging evil thoughts with Bible verses, yet remaining in the old man.

Maybe that is not what you are saying when you say "my former way of thinking was not changed when I was born again therefore I have to make "different that which was formerly" - accomplished by renewing my mind". But that is what I understand from what you are saying. Please correct me if I am mistaken. Thank you.

Nope, I never said that we put on the knowledge of God and remain in the old man. We put on the knowledge of God and walk in that knowledge = the new man. Let's say someone is a thief. His habitual nature (old man) is to steal either for pleasure or what he thinks is out of need - He gets born again. Now he sees something he wants or needs and his first thought is to just steal it because that is what he has always done. He learns "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needs." Again, he sees something he wants or needs, his first thought is to steal but then he remembers Eph. 4:28 - he can either steal (old man) or he can renew his mind to the knowledge of God and steal no more (new man). That may happen time and time again until he gets it and the thought to steal never enters his mind anymore - He is transformed. He has then "made different that which was formerly". ​

So when we read John 15 and see the Husbandman purges (to cleanse, of filth impurity, etc., to prune trees and vines from useless shoots) the branch, God is not really doing that? And we are pruning ourselves?

The way I see it is God cleanses and removes those things which are detrimental to us. However, we need to let them go. We are not to hang on to what God wants to rid from our lives; nor are we to allow to grow back that which God has pruned from us.

The reason we go through the same things over and over is not because God is not cleansing, or that God is not pruning, but because we either hold on to that which God is trying to remove, or we go back and re-grow that dead wood God removed. That's the way I see and understand some of the why's and wherefore's of this fleshly existence.

John 15 is talking about pruning in order to produce fruit - not removing obstacles in our paths. You prune fruit trees in order to encourage growth and increase fruit production. "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful . . you are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." (NIV) So he is not pruning to cleanse us but so that we bear much fruit.

We don't just "sit back and do nothing". We put off the old man and put on the new man.

Here are the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like.

We will not find the works of the flesh exhibited in our lives if / when we put on the new man. Why? Because these things are not the nature of the new man.

Here is the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

We will not find the fruit of the spirit revealed in our lives if / when we do not put off the old man. Why? Because these things are not the nature of the old man.

We do put off the old man and put on the new man and it is done by renewing our minds. We are to mortify - put to death whatever belongs to our earthly nature - put off the old man (Colossians 3:5) and put on the new man "which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him". (Colossians 3:10) The process is just as I gave above of the example of someone who steals.

You, as well.

I know it is a little more difficult to communicate through our keyboards in an online forum. And it seems as if we keep repeating ourselves, but I believe we're communicating effectively.

And we may not ever come to agreement over this issue and that's okay. We still love each other as members in particular in the Body of Christ.

Yep . . . .

 

[unobtrusive]

When I posted the verse in Greek, I used Strong's online Concordance then used my Interlinear Greek-English New Testament with Lexicon both of which had "your". After I posted I checked my Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English & Greek New Testament - now this had the use of "the" instead of "your". The thing is that doesn't change anything - Be ye transformed by the renewing of the mind - who else's mind are you going to renew but your own?

Yes, the mind you have is not mine or the one reneweddaybyday has. I does appear, however, that reneweddaybyday is assisting you in being reneweddaybyday. It's all in one's state of mind. Ya think" LOL

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Let's say someone is a thief. His habitual nature (old man) is to steal either for pleasure or what he thinks is out of need - He gets born again. Now he sees something he wants or needs and his first thought is to just steal it because that is what he has always done. He learns "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needs." Again, he sees something he wants or needs, his first thought is to steal but then he remembers Eph. 4:28 - he can either steal (old man) or he can renew his mind to the knowledge of God and steal no more (new man). That may happen time and time again until he gets it and the thought to steal never enters his mind anymore - He is transformed. He has then "made different that which was formerly".

(bold mine)

How did "he" make anything? The new man was given to him by God. The mind of Christ is inherent in the new man.

The only reason the thought to steal never enters his mind at some point in his maturing process is because he has put off the old man.

So, let's say the guy does just as you have said. And he walks for years with not one thought of stealing. However, one day he stumbles and turns from who he is in Christ (new man) and goes back to his old habit patterns (who he was in Adam – old man). The thought to steal again comes to mind because that thought is inherent in the old man.

The born again one has a new mind. The new mind is different from that which was formerly. The new mind has new thoughts. The renewed mind is more than just exchanging one thought for another. The renewed mind results from a completely new life created within the born again believer.

John 15 is talking about pruning in order to produce fruit - not removing obstacles in our paths. You prune fruit trees in order to encourage growth and increase fruit production. "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful . . you are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." (NIV) So he is not pruning to cleanse us but so that we bear much fruit.

The word "prunes" (KJV uses the word "purge") is the Greek word kathairó and it means cleanse, purify, prune.

From HELPS Word-studies:

kathaírō – make clean by purging (removing undesirable elements); hence, "pruned (purged)"; eliminating what is fruitless by purifying (making unmixed).

HELPS[SUP]TM[/SUP] Word-studies
copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.​

The application of the pruning to Rom 12 is that we do all those things shown in the verses following verse 2 – utilizing our gifts to the best of our abilities (vss 6-8); love without hypocrisy, abhor evil, hold on to that which is good (vs 9); love and honor our brothers and sisters in Christ (vs 10); not lazy, zealous in our service in the Lord; etc., etc.

To me, those things are "fruit" (outside evidence) of the new man (renewed mind).

On the other hand, if we find it burdensome to follow through in those things, it is due to us not having put off the old man (we are still conformed to this world).

We do put off the old man and put on the new man and it is done by renewing our minds.

Here is where we have a differing understanding.

You say: By renewing our minds, the result is we put off the old man and put on the new man.

I say: By putting off the old man and putting on the new man the result is the renewed mind.

An intrinsic part of the new man is the mind of Christ. It is the mind of Christ which is the renewed mind.

We are to mortify - put to death whatever belongs to our earthly nature - put off the old man (Colossians 3:5) and put on the new man "which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him". (Colossians 3:10) The process is just as I gave above of the example of someone who steals.

Right.

The new man is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him

Who created him (the new man)? God did.

The new man is renewed – [anakainóō ("to renew") only occurs in 2 Cor 4:16 and Col 3:10, both times referring to God ever-transforming the believer – by renewing "the new man" (anthrōpos) in Christ. HELPS[SUP]TM[/SUP] Word-studies copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.]

God transforms the believer from dead in Adam to alive in Christ.

The believer's responsibility is to put off the old man and put on the new man.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, the mind you have is not mine or the one reneweddaybyday has. I does appear, however, that reneweddaybyday is assisting you in being reneweddaybyday. It's all in one's state of mind. Ya think" LOL

I think we are both explaining to each other how we live in the renewed mind.

She's telling me how she does it.

I'm telling her how I do it.

It's much more difficult to discuss / explain through our keyboards in an online forum than if we were sitting at a kitchen table with our Bibles and other reference materials. Somehow we're managing.

 

[unobtrusive]

I think we are both explaining to each other how we live in the renewed mind.

She's telling me how she does it.

I'm telling her how I do it.

It's much more difficult to discuss / explain through our keyboards in an online forum than if we were sitting at a kitchen table with our Bibles and other reference materials. Somehow we're managing.

It certainly is more difficult. You two have been a good example to all who read this thread.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

(bold mine)
How did "he" make anything? The new man was given to him by God. The mind of Christ is inherent in the new man.

That is what you are not understanding - we renew our PHYSICAL mind - he, the person's who habit it was to steal becomes born again. He feels the urge to steal - he remembers what God's will is; i.e. not to steal, he renews his mind to God's will - it is hard at first but the more he does it the easier it gets . . . being transformed. He has then "made different that which was formerly". He has renewed his mind to the point where how he once thought and lived (stealing) he now does not steal -his thought pattern and actions which were formerly have been made different by renewing his mind. Remember we looked at the difference in the context where conformed was used and in the context Romans 12 is speaking of our behavior, lifestyle, etc.

Be not conformed to this world is syschematizo - to conform one's self (i.e. one's mind and character) to another's pattern (fashion one's self according to) from schema - the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life . . . And that is what we are talking about - the PHYSICAL mind.

The only reason the thought to steal never enters his mind at some point in his maturing process is because he has put off the old man.

And he did this by renewing his mind to the word of God and proving what is that good, acceptable and perfect will of God is - putting off the old and putting on the new takes renewing your mind.

So, let's say the guy does just as you have said. And he walks for years with not one thought of stealing. However, one day he stumbles and turns from who he is in Christ (new man) and goes back to his old habit patterns (who he was in Adam – old man). The thought to steal again comes to mind because that thought is inherent in the old man.

He may fail - a righteous man falls but he picks himself back up again . . . and the process starts all over again. There are times when each of us stumble into the pattern of the old man - what do we do? We start over again . . . Thank God his mercies are new each morning and for his wonderful grace upon our lives.

The born again one has a new mind. The new mind is different from that which was formerly. The new mind has new thoughts. The renewed mind is more than just exchanging one thought for another. The renewed mind results from a completely new life created within the born again believer.

No . . . our PHYSICAL minds stay the same - that is why we are told to renew our minds, to mortify the deeds of the flesh, to put on the new man and put off the old man . . . we are told how we are to walk . . . if we received a new PHYSICAL mind when we are born again there is no need for God to tell us any of this, for we would automatically walk in the new man with no problem at all . . . we would be made perfect in the flesh. No need for the flesh to lust against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh . . . half the Bible would be gone!

The word "prunes" (KJV uses the word "purge") is the Greek word kathairó and it means cleanse, purify, prune.

From HELPS Word-studies:

kathaírō – make clean by purging (removing undesirable elements); hence, "pruned (purged)"; eliminating what is fruitless by purifying (making unmixed).

HELPS[SUP]TM[/SUP] Word-studies
copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.


​

The application of the pruning to Rom 12 is that we do all those things shown in the verses following verse 2 – utilizing our gifts to the best of our abilities (vss 6-8); love without hypocrisy, abhor evil, hold on to that which is good (vs 9); love and honor our brothers and sisters in Christ (vs 10); not lazy, zealous in our service in the Lord; etc., etc

To me, those things are "fruit" (outside evidence) of the new man (renewed mind).

Well, right after Jesus talks about pruning to become more fruitful - he says: You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. So God is pruning those who are already clean? or is He pruning so those individuals can produce more fruit? The fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5:22,23.

To you those may be fruit out of obedience . . . but that is not what is being said in the context. 9-21 Tell us how to live in this world and in order to live in this manner we have to put off the old and put on the new - Do not conform to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of the mind. (that is the PHYSICAL mind that produces our manner of life)

On the other hand, if we find it burdensome to follow through in those things, it is due to us not having put off the old man (we are still conformed to this world).

I don't believe it is as simple as you seem to make it. I believe that some habitual things are more burdensome and hard to change because they just are! Someone may be trying really hard to quit something that is not best for them. In their heart of hearts they know (and want) that this habit needs to be put out of their lives and they renew their minds to the will of God but sometimes they just fail - maybe again and again . . . does it mean they are not trying? Does it mean they have failed in their Christian walk? I don't think so. I believe that God does look on the heart and he sees the effort being put forth - one day the light will shine through and the habit will be gone. Sanctification is a lifetime process.

Here is where we have a differing understanding.

You say: By renewing our minds, the result is we put off the old man and put on the new man.

I say: By putting off the old man and putting on the new man the result is the renewed mind.

An intrinsic part of the new man is the mind of Christ. It is the mind of Christ which is the renewed mind.

Let's keep reading Romans 12 is talking about how we are not to be conformed to this world; i.e. not be conformed in one's mind and character to this world, then goes on to tell us how we are to live and that we are to renew the mind and be transformed, i.e. change one's mind and character to line up with God's word. All the details of how we are to live in vs. 9-21 even continuing through Romans 13 - love one another, love does no harm to a neighbor, love is the fulfillment of the law. Put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.(13:12b) Let us walk honestly - (13:13a) Rather than these (deeds of darkness), but put on the Lord Jesus Christ, . . . AGAIN, put off the old, put on the new, all to do with renewing the mind.

Right.

The new man is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him

Who created him (the new man)? God did.

The new man is renewed – [anakainóō ("to renew") only occurs in 2 Cor 4:16 and Col 3:10, both times referring to God ever-transforming the believer – by renewing "the new man" (anthrōpos) in Christ. HELPS[SUP]TM[/SUP] Word-studies copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.]

God transforms the believer from dead in Adam to alive in Christ.

The believer's responsibility is to put off the old man and put on the new man.

If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above . . .
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; . .
But now you also put off all these; . . . Why are we told to put these things off?
Lie not one to another seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him . . . You see how the "old man" and the "new man" have to do with behavior? You see that it is US that these verses are directed toward - how to change that behavior. That is the context of Romans 12 -

The transformation comes about when the believer renews his mind by putting off the old and putting on the new. If God does the transforming - why are not all born again believers changed the minute they are born again? The minute one confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead - BAM - changed, transformed. Why go to all the trouble of telling us how we are to live, how we are to put off the old man and put on the new man, why tell us to be transformed from the world by renewing our minds when he is doing it?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

How did "he" make anything? The new man was given to him by God. The mind of Christ is inherent in the new man.

That is what you are not understanding - we renew our PHYSICAL mind - he, the person's who habit it was to steal becomes born again.

You say "we renew our PHYSICAL mind – he, the person's who habit it was to steal becomes born again."

Isn't he (or she) already born again?

When we are first born again, God creates new man within. This new man within does not leave us if / when we are drawn back (by the lusts of our flesh) to who we were in Adam.

We put on the new man and in the new man is the mind of Christ and that is the renewed mind.

He feels the urge to steal - he remembers what God's will is; i.e. not to steal, he renews his mind to God's will - it is hard at first but the more he does it the easier it gets . . . being transformed.

To me, this appears to be that he does not get drawn away from the new man back into who he was in Adam (the old man) and he continues in the new man which includes the mind of Christ (the renewed mind).

And the reason it gets easier is because as he mortifies the deeds of his flesh, the tugs from the flesh become weaker. As we reckon the flesh "dead", the flesh weakens.

Additionally, we become stronger and stronger in the new man to the point where we are victorious over the weakness of our flesh. We stumble / fall less and less.

He has then "made different that which was formerly". He has renewed his mind to the point where how he once thought and lived (stealing) he now does not steal -his thought pattern and actions which were formerly have been made different by renewing his mind.

And to me it appears that he was "made different from that which had been formerly" by God when God created the new man within.

Isn't this exactly what God promised when He spoke of the new covenant? That He would put His law in our inward parts and write it in our hearts (Jer 31:33)? And in Heb 8:8 we read I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts.

Our part in the whole scheme of things is to not be conformed to this world. Put off the old man. Put on the new man. In the new man is the mind of Christ (the renewed mind).

Again, God writes His law in our minds and in our hearts. God doesn't write all in our hearts the minute we are born again. He writes bit by bit over the course of our whole life.

We continue to walk in light of that new man within, with more and more of God's Word written in our hearts. Walking in the new man is the renewed mind because it is the mind of Christ.

Remember we looked at the difference in the context where conformed was used and in the context Romans 12 is speaking of our behavior, lifestyle, etc.

Be not conformed to this world is syschematizo - to conform one's self (i.e. one's mind and character) to another's pattern (fashion one's self according to) from schema - the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life . . . And that is what we are talking about - the PHYSICAL mind.

In agreement that we are not to be conformed to this world.

God is the One Who created the new man (with the mind of Christ) within the born again believer. We either walk in light of who we were (past tense) in Adam (old man) or who we are (present (and future) tense) in Christ.

The transformation occurs as we do not conform ourselves to this world because we live in light of the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24).

The only reason the thought to steal never enters his mind at some point in his maturing process is because he has put off the old man.

And he did this by renewing his mind to the word of God and proving what is that good, acceptable and perfect will of God is - putting off the old and putting on the new takes renewing your mind.

To remain in the new man with the mind of Christ (the renewed mind) is me not being drawn out through he lusts of the flesh.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

In the new man we are able to live and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Old man (who we were in Adam) will always seek to fulfil its desires.

Only new man is able to overcome.

The born again one has a new mind. The new mind is different from that which was formerly. The new mind has new thoughts. The renewed mind is more than just exchanging one thought for another. The renewed mind results from a completely new life created within the born again believer.

No . . . our PHYSICAL minds stay the same - that is why we are told to renew our minds, to mortify the deeds of the flesh, to put on the new man and put off the old man . . . we are told how we are to walk . . . if we received a new PHYSICAL mind when we are born again there is no need for God to tell us any of this, for we would automatically walk in the new man with no problem at all . . . we would be made perfect in the flesh. No need for the flesh to lust against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh . . . half the Bible would be gone!

The new mind we receive at the new birth is a new SPIRITUAL mind. We also receive a new SPIRITUAL heart. Into our new SPIRITUAL mind and SPIRITUAL heart, God writes His Word. As we learn to walk in the spirit, we learn to follow that which God has written in our inward parts.

Jesus Christ told His disciples that the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance (John 14:26).

What do we do when faced with the lust of the flesh?

Follow the lust and live in light of who we once were in Adam?

Or follow the prompting of the Comforter and remain steadfast and unmovable in the new man, which is equipped with the mind of Christ (the renewed mind)?

Well, right after Jesus talks about pruning to become more fruitful - he says: You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. So God is pruning those who are already clean? or is He pruning so those individuals can produce more fruit? The fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5:22,23.

Yes, God prunes those who are already clean because we live our lives out in the world. The cleansing is continuous, lasts throughout the whole of our life from the time we're born again 'til the time we pass (or are gathered up), and it benefits our lives. God removes the tarnish of this world which attaches to us because we live in this world and He cuts off old dead wood which drains us. As we submit to His cleansing/cutting, the sap from the Vine (our Lord Jesus Christ) flows more fully into our lives

To you those may be fruit out of obedience . . . but that is not what is being said in the context. 9-21 Tell us how to live in this world and in order to live in this manner we have to put off the old and put on the new - Do not conform to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of the mind. (that is the PHYSICAL mind that produces our manner of life)

We have a new SPIRITUAL mind by which we are now to live our lives. The mind of Christ, the renewed mind, will never find it burdensome to do those things which God instructs.

The PHYSICAL mind will never submit to the will of God (the carnal mind is enmity against God – Rom 8:7). So if we find it burdensome, or if it's a struggle, to follow the instructions in God's Word, we know we have not put off the old man. The moment we think it's too difficult or burdensome to do what God tells us to do, put off the old man and put on the new man.

On the other hand, if we find it burdensome to follow through in those things, it is due to us not having put off the old man (we are still conformed to this world).

I don't believe it is as simple as you seem to make it. I believe that some habitual things are more burdensome and hard to change because they just are! Someone may be trying really hard to quit something that is not best for them. In their heart of hearts they know (and want) that this habit needs to be put out of their lives and they renew their minds to the will of God but sometimes they just fail - maybe again and again . . . does it mean they are not trying? Does it mean they have failed in their Christian walk? I don't think so. I believe that God does look on the heart and he sees the effort being put forth - one day the light will shine through and the habit will be gone. Sanctification is a lifetime process.

I've heard differing testimonies. Some people find their burdens lifted immediately or seemingly quite easily. Others struggle. I know that God works in the lives of His children and He loves each one of us the same. It's not like He loves you more than me if you do not struggle and I do struggle.

And, yes, sanctification is a lifetime process. Full realization of who we are in Christ will not occur while we live in these bodies. In the future, we will be changed; we will be like Him and we shall see Him as He is.

Here is where we have a differing understanding.

You say: By renewing our minds, the result is we put off the old man and put on the new man.

I say: By putting off the old man and putting on the new man the result is the renewed mind.

An intrinsic part of the new man is the mind of Christ. It is the mind of Christ which is the renewed mind.

Let's keep reading Romans 12 is talking about how we are not to be conformed to this world; i.e. not be conformed in one's mind and character to this world, then goes on to tell us how we are to live and that we are to renew the mind and be transformed, i.e. change one's mind and character to line up with God's word. All the details of how we are to live in vs. 9-21 even continuing through Romans 13 - love one another, love does no harm to a neighbor, love is the fulfillment of the law. Put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.(13:12b) Let us walk honestly - (13:13a) Rather than these (deeds of darkness), but put on the Lord Jesus Christ, . . . AGAIN, put off the old, put on the new, all to do with renewing the mind.

Finish reading through Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

New man does not make provision for the flesh to fulfill its lusts.

Old man will always make provision to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

So then, after we are born again, why do we fulfill the lusts of the flesh?

Because we do not continue in the new man.

We get drawn away through the lusts of our flesh

It is only in the new man (put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ) that we are able to live in this life and not make provision for the flesh to fulfil the lusts thereof.

If we leave this abode (the new man) and go back to who we were in Adam (old man), we will always fuilfil the lusts of the flesh.

If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above . . .
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; . .
But now you also put off all these; . . . Why are we told to put these things off?
Lie not one to another seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him . . .

What I know is that anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication, lying are works of the flesh. If we see these things in our lives, we know we have not put off the old man.

You see how the "old man" and the "new man" have to do with behavior? You see that it is US that these verses are directed toward - how to change that behavior. That is the context of Romans 12 -

The transformation comes about when the believer renews his mind by putting off the old and putting on the new.

Right. Because the new SPIRITUAL man is equipped with a new SPIRITUAL mind (i.e. the mind of Christ).

It is not that the old fleshly (Adamic) mind is changed. It is a new mind.

You appear to be applying this "made different" to thoughts, when it is a renewed mind. And the mind is renewed (according to Bullinger, renewed is "renewal, renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly"). The renewed mind is "other and different" (new man) "from that which had been formerly" (old man).

In the renewed mind, the thoughts are "made different" because the mind is different (mind of Christ as opposed to mind of Adam).

If God does the transforming - why are not all born again believers changed the minute they are born again? The minute one confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead - BAM - changed, transformed. Why go to all the trouble of telling us how we are to live, how we are to put off the old man and put on the new man, why tell us to be transformed from the world by renewing our minds when he is doing it?

We are changed the minute we're born again. God creates the new creation within. However, that new creation is a babe ... just like we were babies when we were born. We weren't born as fully grown adults. We went through a physical, mental, emotional, social development process which continued for decades.

There is also a spiritual maturation process which takes place in the born again believer.

Rapid spiritual growth and development as we put off the old man / put on the new man.

Not so rapid if / when we remain in the old man and God has to cleanse / prune off the same old, dead wood because we won't let go of that which God is trying to rid us of, or He cuts off the dead wood and we go right back to where we were and grow that same dead wood back in our lives.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You say "we renew our PHYSICAL mind – he, the person's who habit it was to steal becomes born again."

Isn't he (or she) already born again?

When we are first born again, God creates new man within. This new man within does not leave us if / when we are drawn back (by the lusts of our flesh) to who we were in Adam.

We put on the new man and in the new man is the mind of Christ and that is the renewed mind.

That is what you call taking my words out of context . . . LOL! or maybe you did not understand the progression of what I was saying. What I said was - 1) he, the person's who habit it was to steal becomes born again. 2) He feels the urge to steal - he remembers what God's word is; i.e. not to steal, he renews his mind to God's will . . . . He has then "made different that which was formerly". See the progression?

Correct we are sealed with the holy Spirit until the day of redemption - the holy Spirit does not leave us.

To me, this appears to be that he does not get drawn away from the new man back into who he was in Adam (the old man) and he continues in the new man which includes the mind of Christ (the renewed mind).

And the reason it gets easier is because as he mortifies the deeds of his flesh, the tugs from the flesh become weaker. As we reckon the flesh "dead", the flesh weakens. Additionally, we become stronger and stronger in the new man to the point where we are victorious over the weakness of our flesh. We stumble / fall less and less. And to me it appears that he was "made different from that which had been formerly" by God when God created the new man within. Isn't this exactly what God promised when He spoke of the new covenant? That He would put His law in our inward parts and write it in our hearts (Jer 31:33)? And in Heb 8:8 we read I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts.

What I am saying is the urge to steal is still in his thoughts . . . he has to put on the mind of Christ, i.e. the new man in order to fight the urge to steal - sometimes he will succeed but sometimes he may fail - If he falls did he loose the holy Spirit? - NO. Yes, the more we renew our minds, the more we will become stronger and fall less and less. So now are you saying that it is us that renew our minds?

He was "made different from that which had been formerly" because he is renewing his mind to live differently than he was. Spiritually within that new creation he is perfect and yes, his desires now are to do the will of God. His thought patterns that govern his behavior now have to exhibit what has been created on the inside; i.e God's word in our inner parts and written on our hearts . . he has to put on the new man into his PHYSICAL mind so that his behavior is not conformed to the world but conformed to the image of Christ. The more we know the will of God through his word - God will bring those things to our remembrance which enables us to change our natural way of thinking (old man) bringing to light the inner man, the new man. It does not happen automatically.
Our PHYSICAL minds were not changed . . . that is why we are told to PUT ON, PUT OFF, MORTIFY, etc. WE have to do these things.

Our part in the whole scheme of things is to not be conformed to this world. Put off the old man. Put on the new man. In the new man is the mind of Christ (the renewed mind).

Again, God writes His law in our minds and in our hearts. God doesn't write all in our hearts the minute we are born again. He writes bit by bit over the course of our whole life.

We continue to walk in light of that new man within, with more and more of God's Word written in our hearts. Walking in the new man is the renewed mind because it is the mind of Christ.

In agreement that we are not to be conformed to this world.

What does that word "conformed" deal with? Behavior . . . What is man's natural behavior? to be conformed to this world . . . How does man change his thought patterns? by renewing his mind, by changing the old man behavior into the new man behavior (making different that which was formerly) and it is done by putting on, putting off, mortifying, etc. NOT on the inside . . . what was created on the inside of us is perfect but to exhibit that which is new on the inside - we have to renew our PHYSICAL minds to. The more that we renew our minds the more we will walk in the light as he is in the light - the more we will exhibit that new creation and it does get easier and easier to not fall into the old man patterns.

God is the One Who created the new man (with the mind of Christ) within the born again believer. We either walk in light of who we were (past tense) in Adam (old man) or who we are (present (and future) tense) in Christ.

The transformation occurs as we do not conform ourselves to this world because we live in light of the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24).

To remain in the new man with the mind of Christ (the renewed mind) is me not being drawn out through he lusts of the flesh.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

In the new man we are able to live and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Old man (who we were in Adam) will always seek to fulfil its desires.

Only new man is able to overcome.

Scripture says we are transformed by the renewing of the mind. And we do that by putting off the old man, putting on the new man . . . putting on the mind of Christ . . . as we do that and the more we do that - we will not make provision for the flesh - go back to the old man behavior.

The new mind we receive at the new birth is a new SPIRITUAL mind. We also receive a new SPIRITUAL heart. Into our new SPIRITUAL mind and SPIRITUAL heart, God writes His Word. As we learn to walk in the spirit, we learn to follow that which God has written in our inward parts.

Jesus Christ told His disciples that the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance (John 14:26).

What do we do when faced with the lust of the flesh?

Follow the lust and live in light of who we once were in Adam?

Or follow the prompting of the Comforter and remain steadfast and unmovable in the new man, which is equipped with the mind of Christ (the renewed mind)?

Yes, I believe earlier in this post I said that the holy Spirit will bring things to our remembrance.
Yes, we make the choice to walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit.
Is the mind of Christ the "renewed" mind? Or is it our PHYSICAL minds being renewed and renewed and renewed as we put off and put on? What does renew mean? anakainosis - a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better from anakainoo to cause to grow up, new, to make new; A. new stength and vigour is given to one B. to be changed into a new kind of life as opposed to the former corrupt state . . . See it all relates NOT to what has been done on the inside of us, that is perfect but bringing that which is perfect to be reflected in our behavior. Our new creation does not have to be made new again and again BUT our PHYSICAL minds do.

Yes, God prunes those who are already clean because we live our lives out in the world. The cleansing is continuous, lasts throughout the whole of our life from the time we're born again 'til the time we pass (or are gathered up), and it benefits our lives. God removes the tarnish of this world which attaches to us because we live in this world and He cuts off old dead wood which drains us. As we submit to His cleansing/cutting, the sap from the Vine (our Lord Jesus Christ) flows more fully into our lives

What do you mean by the "tarnish of this world which attaches to us" and cuts off old dead wood which drains us"? God prunes those who bear NO fruit. God prunes that which is diseased, rotted and cast them into the fire and they are burned. Same as: If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon then he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire.

We have a new SPIRITUAL mind by which we are now to live our lives. The mind of Christ, the renewed mind, will never find it burdensome to do those things which God instructs.

I don't think that I have said anywhere that it is a burden to do what God intsructs . . . Is it sometimes hard to go against our natural way of thinking - I believe so . . .

The PHYSICAL mind will never submit to the will of God (the carnal mind is enmity against God – Rom 8:7). So if we find it burdensome, or if it's a struggle, to follow the instructions in God's Word, we know we have not put off the old man. The moment we think it's too difficult or burdensome to do what God tells us to do, put off the old man and put on the new man.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally (fleshly) minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind (mind of the flesh) is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. . . .
This is talking about the difference between those who are born again and those who are not.

The moment we think it's too difficult or burdensome to do what God tells us to do, put off the old man and put on the new man.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not [perform]: but the evil which I would not [perform] that I do [perform]. Now if I do [perform] that I would not [what I do not want to] it is no more I that do it but sin that dwells in me . . . . For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringin me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death? . . . . . That is the battle between the old man and the new man - that is the struggle of the flesh lusting against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. THAT is why we are told HOW to deal with this by PUTTING OFF, PUTTING ON, RENEWING the mind to walk in the Spirit and not walking in the flesh.

I've heard differing testimonies. Some people find their burdens lifted immediately or seemingly quite easily. Others struggle. I know that God works in the lives of His children and He loves each one of us the same. It's not like He loves you more than me if you do not struggle and I do struggle.

And, yes, sanctification is a lifetime process. Full realization of who we are in Christ will not occur while we live in these bodies. In the future, we will be changed; we will be like Him and we shall see Him as He is.

Finish reading through Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

New man does not make provision for the flesh to fulfill its lusts.

Old man will always make provision to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

So then, after we are born again, why do we fulfill the lusts of the flesh?

Because we do not continue in the new man.

We get drawn away through the lusts of our flesh

It is only in the new man (put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ) that we are able to live in this life and not make provision for the flesh to fulfil the lusts thereof.

If we leave this abode (the new man) and go back to who we were in Adam (old man), we will always fuilfil the lusts of the flesh.

What I know is that anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication, lying are works of the flesh. If we see these things in our lives, we know we have not put off the old man.

Right. Because the new SPIRITUAL man is equipped with a new SPIRITUAL mind (i.e. the mind of Christ).

It is not that the old fleshly (Adamic) mind is changed. It is a new mind.

I have heard of different testimonies also - some miraculous, some struggle.

If we have received a new mind - then why does the flesh still lust against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh? My new mind should line up with that new creation within me and then no problemo!!! I am new - there is no need to "put off the old" and "put on the new" . . . there is no need to "put on Christ" . .

You appear to be applying this "made different" to thoughts, when it is a renewed mind. And the mind is renewed (according to Bullinger, renewed is "renewal, renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly"). The renewed mind is "other and different" (new man) "from that which had been formerly" (old man).

In the renewed mind, the thoughts are "made different" because the mind is different (mind of Christ as opposed to mind of Adam).

I disagree . . . . the only way our minds will be made different is by renewing the thought processes
we had formerly with the different ones we have been given within the new creation.

We are changed the minute we're born again. God creates the new creation within. However, that new creation is a babe ... just like we were babies when we were born. We weren't born as fully grown adults. We went through a physical, mental, emotional, social development process which continued for decades.

There is also a spiritual maturation process which takes place in the born again believer.

Rapid spiritual growth and development as we put off the old man / put on the new man.

Not so rapid if / when we remain in the old man and God has to cleanse / prune off the same old, dead wood because we won't let go of that which God is trying to rid us of, or He cuts off the dead wood and we go right back to where we were and grow that same dead wood back in our lives.

We are changed the minute we are born again . . . in the inner man, agreed.

I agree about growth . . . Rapid spiritual growth and development as we put off the old man and put on the new man by renewing the mind, we will see a transformation. I also know that a Christian's desire first and foremost is to please their heavenly Father. Sometimes things happen and we get caught up in the world or worldly things . . . sometimes the adversary tricks us . . . there are a lot of reasons that Christians may fall but they never lose the new man God has created in them . . .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I should have asked you this a long while back. LOL

What is your definition of "mind"?

Biblically: nous - 1. the mind, comprising alike the faculties of perceiving and understanding and those of feeling, judging, determining; A. the intellectual faculty, the understanding; B. reason in the narrower sense, as the capacity for spiritual truth, the higher powers of the soul, the faculty of perceiving divine things, of recognising goodness and of hating evil; C. the power of considering and judging soberly, calmly and impartially; 2. a particular mode of thinking and judging, i.e thoughts, feelings, purposes, desires

or

• the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought: "as the thoughts ran through his mind, he came to a conclusion" synonyms: brain, intelligence, intellect, intellectual capabilities, brains, ...
  
• 2. a person's intellect:
  

All of the above is what has to be renewed.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I should have asked you this a long while back. LOL

What is your definition of "mind"?

Biblically: nous - 1. the mind, comprising alike the faculties of perceiving and understanding and those of feeling, judging, determining; A. the intellectual faculty, the understanding; B. reason in the narrower sense, as the capacity for spiritual truth, the higher powers of the soul, the faculty of perceiving divine things, of recognising goodness and of hating evil; C. the power of considering and judging soberly, calmly and impartially; 2. a particular mode of thinking and judging, i.e thoughts, feelings, purposes, desires

or

• the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought: "as the thoughts ran through his mind, he came to a conclusion" synonyms: brain, intelligence, intellect, intellectual capabilities, brains, ...
  
• 2. a person's intellect:
  

All of the above is what has to be renewed.

I have much to do today and will answer this post now. Probably will not get to #117 until tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.

Mind:

From Bullinger’s Critical Greek Lexicon and Concordance:


The organ of mental perception and apprehension, the organ of conscious life; the organ of the consciousness preceding the act, or recognizing and judging the fact. It is gen., the organ of thinking and knowledge. i.e. the understanding; or esp., the organ of moral thinking, i.e., contemplation. In the N.T. (except Luke xxiv. 45 and Rev. xiii. 18; xvii. 9), it occurs only in Pauls Epistles, and is used of the reflective consciousness, as distinct from the impulse of the spirit apart from such consciousness.

[The νοῦς takes cognizance of external objects, and denotes the reasoning faculty. Its chief material organ is the brain, but all the senses serve it actively or passively. νοῦς is the human side of God’s Spirit in man; as to its source, it is Spirit; as to its action in man for intellectual purposes it is the mind, i.e. the product of the Spirit.]

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I have much to do today and will answer this post now. Probably will not get to #117 until tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.

Mind:

From Bullinger’s Critical Greek Lexicon and Concordance:

The organ of mental perception and apprehension, the organ of conscious life; the organ of the consciousness preceding the act, or recognizing and judging the fact. It is gen., the organ of thinking and knowledge. i.e. the understanding; or esp., the organ of moral thinking, i.e., contemplation. In the N.T. (except Luke xxiv. 45 and Rev. xiii. 18; xvii. 9), it occurs only in Pauls Epistles, and is used of the reflective consciousness, as distinct from the impulse of the spirit apart from such consciousness.

[The νοῦς takes cognizance of external objects, and denotes the reasoning faculty. Its chief material organ is the brain, but all the senses serve it actively or passively. νοῦς is the human side of God’s Spirit in man; as to its source, it is Spirit; as to its action in man for intellectual purposes it is the mind, i.e. the product of the Spirit.]

Could you break that down to what YOU believe the mind to be? Darn I don't have my Bullinger with me for I am at work!

I see the mind in this manner: It is the seat of man's intellect ruled by the five senses . . . the five senses are fleshly . . . the new man is Spirit has nothing to do with the five senses (fleshly/carnal) man that is why it has to be renewed to become more like Christ for it is used to thinking according to the five senses, fleshly, carnally.

No need to respond to #117, unless you just want to, for we are going in circles at this point - I have enjoyed the discussion though!