Is the USA really a nation under God?

[aprodigal1]

I've been contemplating this question for some time now and just thought I would ask for your input:

The question:

Since the founding fathers claimed to establish this nation for religious freedom purposes and exemption from taxation among other things. Was the American revolution biblical and did it glorify God? Here are some scriptures to think through:

Romans 13:1-2 reads

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

Next: Mark 12:17
17And Jesus answered and said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

 

[MahogonySnail]

Founded on godly principles borrowed from the English which they declared independance from.

 

[aprodigal1]

America was founded on Godly principals and that being the case, has seen some prosperity and blessings. Although in its short life, America has been going away from biblical truths and has been caving in to liberalism and unjust laws, (abortion , homosexual marriage to name a couple). Its as simple as that imo.

Wouldn't the USA being founded on Godly principles mean that the scriptures where applied in making the decision to revolt, which Romans 13 totally teaches against?

Don't get me wrong, I love this country. I am just wondering if God used our nations founding fathers disobedience to the scriptures, to establish this country as a world power that would protect Israel and be her ally since she has become a nation again in 1967?

I truly believe God is Sovereign and could do all that He pleases

Proverbs 21:1

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.
​

I also believe God can even use mans disobedience for His providential and sovereign rule and for His glory.

He used Babylon, Assyria, Rome and the Philistines time and time again to discipline Israel. He also used Israel to judge other nations.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the further we drift away from God, it seems we drift away from Israel, or is it the other way around?

God help us the day we turn our backs on Israel.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I've been contemplating this question for some time now and just thought I would ask for your input:

The question:

Since the founding fathers claimed to establish this nation for religious freedom purposes and exemption from taxation among other things. Was the American revolution biblical and did it glorify God? Here are some scriptures to think through:

Romans 13:1-2 reads

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

Next: Mark 12:17
17And Jesus answered and said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

Authority is from God, that is true. But there is false authority built on illusion and lies, which draws power from the devil, Satan can offer kingdoms and power, but are they in truth real, lasting eternal, or are they fleeting and wordly, lacking in real power and authority, if they had real power and authority, they would be from God! Jesus through out the "money changers' at the temple with a whip, that would be a revolution...where there are money changers there are guards and security, imagine trying to cast out the money changers of the world today, that is not an easy task, but Jesus overthrew them, with a band of men, that would have been named by law a 'militia', they were certainly against the law of the land, the law of the land is not the law of God, two different things, so give them what they deserve, and give God what He derserves, does the law of the land deserve all your labour, wealth and sacrifice, or does God require that, you cannot serve two masters, so choose! The early American settlers chose, they choose to serve God in freedom, instead of the taxes and laws of a false power in England, they chose God.

 

[MahogonySnail]

It's common knowledge America was founded upon Deist principles , rather than fundamentalist Christian principles. So it is highly doubtful they would take the bible too seriously or literally as most protestants would.

This should be obvious with the influence of free-masonry etc which while acknowleding some Higher Power or God, does not hold to any sort of one religion strictly.

 

[pickles]

Wether the founding was right or wrong the principles still exsist. Although we that believe are not often given the voice in the public's eyes, we that believe still, stand strong. Many do waver right now but many more still believe in our Lord Jesus and his precepts. As long as we that believe still stand strong in faith we are still a nation of God. God bless, pickles

 

[MahogonySnail]

Perhaps too , America is not really moving away from God. But simply moving away from a period of great revivals and strict biblical fundamentalism.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Perhaps an american could point me towards what those principles are? I'm not so sure myself.

 

[MahogonySnail]

The deist roots of America are seen in the frequent and sole use of the word God, rather than Jesus Christ.

It is God help America. Not Jesus Christ help America.
It is so help me God, when people swear on the bible, not so help me Jesus.
It is one nation under God, not one nation under Jesus Christ. The generic language used should show us that it includes all religions who believe in a God, or perhaps even those who believe in God as a nice concept or idea. Not necessarily the narrow way which the bible speaks of.

 

[aprodigal1]

I do thank God for the freedoms we share here in the U.S. To be able to use tools like CC in order to express these types of thoughts and questions without persecution is a true blessing.

 

[pickles]

It is not the words of the goverment that defines this nation before God but all those that believe and follow Our Lord Jesus and his word that represents us before God our father. God bless, pickles

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

It's common knowledge America was founded upon Deist principles , rather than fundamentalist Christian principles. So it is highly doubtful they would take the bible too seriously or literally as most protestants would.

This should be obvious with the influence of free-masonry etc which while acknowleding some Higher Power or God, does not hold to any sort of one religion strictly.

LOL. 'Snail, that is a load of rubbish!

You don't know anything about American history, so why do you comment on something you know nothing about. America was founded by Christians, the Founding Fathers were Christian except for one, another one was a Unitarian, but more than 65% were Anglican and Peresbyterian the rest were Quaker, Dutch Reformed, Calvanist.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

It is so help me God, when people swear on the bible, not so help me Jesus.


Slightly off- topic, but I've been thinking of this for a looong time:

WHY do americans swer on the bible? Doesn't the bible tellus not to swear on ANYTHING?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

It is so help me God, when people swear on the bible, not so help me Jesus.


Slightly off- topic, but I've been thinking of this for a looong time:

WHY do americans swer on the bible? Doesn't the bible tellus not to swear on ANYTHING?

"I swear to tell the truth", "So help me God"

That is swearing to tell the truth, as we should tell the truth, then asking for God's help in that regard of telling the truth. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

but:

“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil."

 

[givengrace]

Yes, however, every person or even a nation as a collective group can fall from grace. Exodus 33 v35

 

[MahogonySnail]

No Cup, see
http://www.deism.com/deistamerica.htm

The use of the word God is in the Deist, not Christian, understanding.

Note the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary

 

[MahogonySnail]

Which says that America was not founded on Christianity.

Deism is basically the belief in God but without much else I guess. Good morals, freedoms, good principles, you can have a good life, good people. But.. this is all still worldly and a form of humanism that acknowledges the existance of God without any real committment to what the bible actually says. Deists will not enter into heaven unless God has made another way except Christ. America or any country cannot receive the blessings of God apart from Christ. Oprah might believe in God, and many others, but so what.

We know that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ does not truly know God, because Christ came to reveal the Father. Reject Christ = reject God.

Therefore America was not founded upon the Christian God but the God of the Deist. Without Christ, there is no access to the Father.

Unless you can show me where it plainly says in the American constitution or other such documents the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth that the Christian believes in.

That explains why America is partial to free-masonry, and many other things that are accepted , and why the biblical fundamentalists get a bit upset about the state of affairs in America. Because America was never a biblical fundamentalist Christian country. Is there not a state comprised mainly of mormons? IT is only a Christian country in the minds of those who wish it to be so. And in the minds of the Muslim, it a muslim country. As far as I understand it, whoever lives in America makes it what they want and think it to be. That is basically what the freedoms and democracy that American upholds is all about. Which is in contrast to the religious organisation-controlled empires that America came from, such as England, etc.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

I think I need to read up on US history, as I don't really know anything about that stuff, but I have also been thinking about the costant God- refrence without Christ, and the use of God Bless, thats seems to be more a saying than something anyone really means

but it all is a interesting debate, because Norway. where I live, is definitly reckoned a christian country (though not "a nation under God"), and our costitution is based on christian morale, however, nowdays almost everything related to christianity is slowly but very certinally being removed, so that we won't offend whoever doesn't believe....or those who have other religions than "ours".

our classes in religon was orginally names "Christianity" then it became "Chrstianity, Religion and philosophy" with the rigt to be absent from parts of the teaching (which I think is OK but had a scaring amount of pages on Islam compared to the ones about chrstianity (a total of two or three actually....), but now it is suddenly called "Religion, philosophy and ethics" which can only mean that the Humanism is now a very big part of it...
And there is a hughe debate about whether or not saying grace ("tableprayer" in lit translation from norwegian) is legal or not...

 

[MahogonySnail]

there are also many websites like this which give a clear picture :

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php


Christians have been lied to and they lie to each other about American being a Christian country. It is only so as long as Christianity is in the majority, appears to be a Christian country. But as far as I can tell it was founded as a free country, by people power, not necessarily as a Christian country, unless the word "Christian" is meant loosely, as someone who acknowledges a particular religion and identifies themself with it, but has not actually taken up their own cross and followed Christ. So they have the word God thrown about by common person and president alike, and the word God written in American history, but so what?

A few examples to show why America is not a Christian country by bible standards:

Democracy - is not from the bible. That comes from Greek philosphy as far as I understand. The bible teaches kingdoms, monarchies, and with Christ, a theocracy.

Human rights - is not from the bible. This has led to whoever wants a right to have one, a right to be gay, a right to abort a baby, for example. Being a Christian doesn't give us rights, it gives us responsibilities and accountability to a Holy God.

The American concept of "freedom" - is not from the bible. This has led to a pluralistic and relativistic tolerant society which is not based on the bible . Reading the bible we can see that Christianity is not about respecting other people, their rights, and their freedoms, but about trying to convert them to Christianity. We can see that the Christian does not have freedom in the American sense - the ability to live as they please and do as they please, but the Christian is a slave to righteousness.

While the above three points can be supported by certain scriptures to support each point of view, their origins are not from sola scripture.

That is probably why today, America does not have a Christian president. And why most Christians in America it would seem are not happy with the government. If America was a Christian country, then I guess most Christians would be happy.

I would suggest that America should not want to become a Christian country, in case it becomes the kind of religious, controlled country like the nations it declared independence from (Britain etc). State-operated and state-run religions by those controlled by the Catholic chuch, the Church of England etc, were never fun places to live in. The escape from religious persecution is precisely what many went to America for and why I believe the American identity is not with any particular religion not even Christianity , but as a place for every person to practice their religion without fear of persecution.