Is there a common theme ?

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
3,540
782
113
#1
Its seems to me from my work with evangelism that there is a common theme that crops up time and time again . To one degree or another its ' works salvation ' . It usually is disguised and couched in less than obvious ways ,but winds up the same. This is from cults to false religions and sadly within christianity. The more subtle variations of the theme are usually framed in terms connected to baptism, obedience, perseverance, endurance, faithfulness , commitment, surrendering, Lordship, ect . I see this as virtue
signalling . But the hardest message to be accepted , and is hotly contested is the simple truth of salvation through faith and once your sealed by the Holy Spirit this is until the day of redemption. Paul was constantly attacked for preaching ' licence to sin ' , turning the message of grace into a message of licence. I see this one truth that stands alone . Where as all other groups , isms, cults , false religions are on the opposite end with different degrees of course , but essentially argue against ' sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. I believe that is the Gospel and all other messages are attacking the Gospel.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,534
472
83
#2
Once saved, always saved.
.......and we did nothing, it is a gift of God.......
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
3,540
782
113
#3
Once saved, always saved.
.......and we did nothing, it is a gift of God.......
We probably believe in OSAS but for different reasons. Reformed theology falls into the ' Lordship ' error.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,676
3,186
113
#4
IS THERE A COMMON THEME?

Yes, it is Jesus! He alone can Atone! PTL!:)
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,676
3,186
113
#5
.......and we did nothing, it is a gift of God.......
to all those who choose to receive and believe.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,534
472
83
#6
We probably believe in OSAS but for different reasons. Reformed theology falls into the ' Lordship ' error.
There is no error in the sovereignty of God.
I do not know what you man by the Lordship error.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
3,540
782
113
#8
There is no error in the sovereignty of God.
I do not know what you man by the Lordship error.
The Lordship error is found in the P of the TULIP. This is why I cannot agree with the reformed concept of OSAS . The idea starts with Election and as this was unconditional and as it was a ' gifted ' Faith ,therefore to show your' Election' was genuine you need your ' works as evidence. Its a vicious circle. You need to persevere and endure to the end to prove your saved ( elected)
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
581
565
93
#9
Works-based salvation is the so-called wisdom of people thinking they need to perform to win. That's the kind of thinking the world teaches. The wisdom of God is the Message of the Cross.

People aren't allowed to save themselves because first of all they would have to be justified by the law and the written law of God is too strict for fallen men and women to perfectly keep. Two, people aren't allowed to boast before God because it's an affront to His due glory.

1 Corinthians 1:18-25
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,534
472
83
#10
to all those who choose to receive and believe.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
SHAME, SHAME, SHAME.
Adding your words to God's. tsk tsk
...".to all those who choose to receive and believe". <----- You won't find those words in the bible.

and whooops again! You quoted only PART of the whole sentence!!!
Johnl 1: 12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
born -physical birth free will choice appoint oneself as a child of God by God alone

as for 'received'...one cannot receive what is not gifted

I really, really, really HATE scripture abuse. IF a person cannot make their point without mangeling the word of God; they have no point
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,285
2,030
113
#11
Works-based salvation is the so-called wisdom of people thinking they need to perform to win. That's the kind of thinking the world teaches. The wisdom of God is the Message of the Cross.

People aren't allowed to save themselves because first of all they would have to be justified by the law and the written law of God is too strict for fallen men and women to perfectly keep. Two, people aren't allowed to boast before God because it's an affront to His due glory.

1 Corinthians 1:18-25
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
People think unless you are obsessed preaching lawkeeping that it must mean you want to be lawless, or advocate lawlessness.
Law preaching, after grace came, is only talking up an outward appearances of godliness, but it's dead.
The law cannot turn anybody into righteousness or cause change of heart. If that worked, the world would have been saved by the law and there would be no need for the New covenant.
Grace causes change of heart. The purpose of the law is to deliver the truth and convict people of sin, but that's where its power and intended purpose ends. God meant for grace to take up from there and deliver power of God and transformation.
 

TM19782017

Active member
Dec 15, 2018
244
150
43
#12
I think the major mistake of some preachers, leaders, teachers, etc.... can make is, giving off a vibe that they personally know what you should do. I am not saying they are intentionally doing that but delivery and tone may give out the vibe....I believe, when teachers are able to speak a lesson, THEN incorporate that lesson directly to a personal experience (usually a major trouble from their life) that drops the speakers authority to a brother and sister level of talk.

I also found out that if something you say or reference from the good book can stir up an inquiry or question within themselves, the lesson was effective.....Even though you may not have an answer for them.

Their “seek and you shall find” fuse, has potentially been lit!
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,534
472
83
#14
All are given the opportunity to come to Jesus. None are depraved of this choice.
So God is not the Potter and has no right over the clay. That is what you are saying.
I give God all the glory. soli deo gloria
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,638
5,618
113
#16
I really, really, really HATE scripture abuse. IF a person cannot make their point without mangeling the word of God; they have no point
So what's your point?

If -- as you admitted above -- salvation is a free GIFT of God's pure grace to the one who believes, why do you resist the Bible truth that this free gift of God's grace is offered to anyone and everyone?

Only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and RECEIVE Him as Lord and Savior are born again supernaturally by the power of the Holy Spirit. But the essential point to note is that the New Birth is available to all who will repent and believe. And that is exactly what is stated in John 1:12,13.
 

Corban

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2020
699
270
63
69
#17
Its seems to me from my work with evangelism that there is a common theme that crops up time and time again . To one degree or another its ' works salvation ' . It usually is disguised and couched in less than obvious ways ,but winds up the same. This is from cults to false religions and sadly within christianity. The more subtle variations of the theme are usually framed in terms connected to baptism, obedience, perseverance, endurance, faithfulness , commitment, surrendering, Lordship, ect . I see this as virtue
signalling . But the hardest message to be accepted , and is hotly contested is the simple truth of salvation through faith and once your sealed by the Holy Spirit this is until the day of redemption. Paul was constantly attacked for preaching ' licence to sin ' , turning the message of grace into a message of licence. I see this one truth that stands alone . Where as all other groups , isms, cults , false religions are on the opposite end with different degrees of course , but essentially argue against ' sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. I believe that is the Gospel and all other messages are attacking the Gospel.
There are two factors that promote men's quest for salvation by works.
  1. Man ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The result of this folly was that he saw that he was naked. Now, in Parable, "naked" is having your shortcomings revealed, and a garment is one's OWN works (whether Good or Evil). So Adam made a "garment of Fig Leaves", which satisfied Eve. But when God appeared on the scene, Adam, while wearing the garment of Fig Leaves, admited that he was naked. Innate in man is the poison of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He intrinsically weighs Good with Evil - HIS Good, and/or HIS Evil - and like Eve, other men are satisfied by it. But God NOT.
  2. It is naturally abhorrent to men to tell them that they are sinners and in need of a Substitute Sacrifice for their intrinsic evil. Part of the fall of man was his SEPARATION from a Holy God. He is ever, even subconsciously, trying to restore that gap. But he will, through his pride, achieve it by himself
But the matter of works also plagues the Christian, as you rightly said in the OP. And a cursory study of the Bible seems to show certain scriptures agreeing with that. The answer is simple. What is difficult is to forget 1,800 years of Roman Catholic doctrine.

In Genesis 1:26-28 man was made for two things, (i) to be in the image and likeness of God to display him, and (ii) to be subduer and ruler of the earth, sea and sky. In 313 AD, Constantine percieved that killing Christians did not stop the spread of Christianity. So he did what was predicted by our Lord Jesus in Matthew 13. He declared Christianity a State Religion, and then allowed it to be "leavend" with all the pagan beliefs of the remaining 95% of the population. One of the most devasting doctrines that has "leavened" Christianity, is that pagans, who worship the heavenly host, changed point number (ii) above to say that a good man will, at death, go to a heavenly pavilion, or lodge. Subtily, God was made to be defeated because He could not get His man to subdue and rule the EARTH. He must save His man and then take him to heaven - and of course, leave the earth to Rome.

But if we believe that God is ALL-MIGHTY, then, like Daniel 2:44, Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 22:5 say, God's men will first subdue, and then rule, the EARTH. And it is here that WORKS come into play. In point number (i) above, for a man to be in the likeness and image of God, he needs God to (i) lift His retribution for his sins, and (ii) to infuse His LIFE into the man so that man is made partaker of the divine LIFE in order to display God (Rom.8:29; 2nd Pet.1:4). This putting away of sins and giving of divine life CANNOT be achieved by men-kind. It HAS TO be a work of God. And it MUST be imputed and NOT EARNED. This part of man's SALVATION is for FREE and is by FAITH - also a gift (Eph.2:8). But once the man is a Christian, he now is in line for co-kingship with Christ to subdue and rule the earth. For this, the man MUST SHOW THAT HE IS WORTHY. The parable of the Talents and the Pounds, plus various other parables show that a man must be PROVEN WORTHY. And that to be a worthy king with Christ over a city or cities (Lk.19:17-19), he NEEDS a rigorous TRAINING. God cannot afford to have His kings of this earth to do the same sinful and selfish things that the gentiles do now.

So for redemption, atonement, rebirth, and having the divine Life to be a man in the likeness and image of God, YOU NEED GOD TO DO THE WORK. But while under training, and at the Judgment Seat, wher it will be decided who gets a city, or cities, WHAT YOU DID COUNTS. So, if you examine all scriptures that require a man to be saved, they will EITHER address GOD'S WORK and a subsequent FREE GIFT, or they will address YOUR WORK during this age and whether you are fit to INHERIT the Kingdom that Christ will set up on earth. Try it and see if it works. You can even reverse it. Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 show what will get you EXCLUDED, not from the divine Life, BUT THE KINGDOM!

Easy ... if you can forget Heaven and believe God's Word that man is for the EARTH.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,638
5,618
113
#19
The more subtle variations of the theme are usually framed in terms connected to baptism, obedience, perseverance, endurance, faithfulness , commitment, surrendering, Lordship, ect
While the gift of eternal life is indeed free to all who believe, none of the above can be excluded from a proper understanding of salvation (which includes sanctification).

1. Those who are saved MUST be baptized as believers.
2. Those who are saved MUST be obedient to God and Christ.
3. Those who are saved MUST persevere, endure, be faithful, be committed, surrender to God, and acknowledge the Lordship of Christ in their lives.

If all this is not taught from Scripture, then there is a serious problem for both preachers and hearers.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,534
472
83
#20
So what's your point?

If -- as you admitted above -- salvation is a free GIFT of God's pure grace to the one who believes, why do you resist the Bible truth that this free gift of God's grace is offered to anyone and everyone?

Only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and RECEIVE Him as Lord and Savior are born again supernaturally by the power of the Holy Spirit. But the essential point to note is that the New Birth is available to all who will repent and believe. And that is exactly what is stated in John 1:12,13.
That was my point......if scripure has to be abused by man's own additions or subtractions....then those who post them have no point.
Would you not agree that the bible is sufficient for all understanding?