Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,864
1,418
113
Leighton Flowers believes in open theology. This is a new theology, and unfortunately my new pastor embraces it, although he did not tell the congregation before we called him.

He just preached from Job 1:27, saying Job and the Bible are wrong, God is not in control. IOW, God is not sovereign.

"Open Theism is the heretical teaching that denies the sovereignty, majesty, infinitude, knowledge, existence, and glory of God and exalts man’s free will. The fact that Open Theism is heretical is well established. Even Chris Fisher acknowledges that his Open Theist position has been deemed heretical by all of orthodox christianity."

https://biblethumpingwingnut.com/2018/09/08/leighton-flowers-agrees-with-mormon-apologist/

A good article for you to read, Melach!

In fact, Arminianism is the first step on the way to open theology. Arminianism exalts the will of people, rather than God. I am not saying that Arminians are not saved. I know many that are. But every person I know who believes in open theology, started as an Arminian, had some kind of crisis of faith or self, and dropped all that baggage of God being an Omnipotent, Omniscient, omnipresent being, and replaced him with a small, meaningless God who has nothing to do with Creation, and sending Jesus to die in the cross, that we might be saved. He is helpless, and impotent, probably sits around all day figuring out how to be good, because that is one of the only characteristics that open theists believe, is that God is good.

Of course, God is good. But he is so much more. It is heretical to limit God, to put him in a box, and only let him out when someone needs a bit of goodness!
you guys already put God in the tulip field and locked him there.

why did you go putting every post of mine with red X? i never put red X. should i go to all your posts and just spam your notifications with it? not fun.

i will read the article and i disagree with open theism i believe God knows the future. how else can prophecy happen?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,113
2,682
113
Sounds just like the Pentecostals.

Is Gods sovereignty better than His goodness? Must you deny one to have the other?

Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I agree. These people cry “the sovereignty of God” and fail to recognize that God has other attributes as well like grace and mercy. Sovereignty is not Calvin’s fatalism, but simply God reigns over all creation.

Why pray if the sovereign God already has everything predetermined? I believe God is reachable and touchable with our prayers and has all authority to step in and cause something to happen that in the natural course of time would have never happened, but because we prayed God made a way.

David believed this. See 2 Samuel 12.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,113
2,682
113
i wouldnt trust God of calvinism if i was you. He might just be deceiving you into thinking you are elect but then like judas you will fall in the end and you wont persevere. now that is sad.
Or you think you’re elect because your parents are elect.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,113
2,682
113
you guys already put God in the tulip field and locked him there.

why did you go putting every post of mine with red X? i never put red X. should i go to all your posts and just spam your notifications with it? not fun.

i will read the article and i disagree with open theism i believe God knows the future. how else can prophecy happen?
Prophecy are things God has determined to occur and there’s nothing man nor Satan can do about it. Are all future decisions prophecy?
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,864
1,418
113
Prophecy are things God has determined to occur and there’s nothing man nor Satan can do about it. Are all future decisions prophecy?
good point not everything is prophecy. thanks
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
the debate is indeed over in 1minute

This guy is not worth listening to. He says the LGBTQ ppl can’t be saved and should just take a gun to their head. He also is an anti-semite, and has been banned from entering certain countries, too.

He offers no exegesis of those verses, just blurts them out.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,864
1,418
113
He offers no exegesis of those verses, just blurts them out.
exegesis hahaha. how much exegesis do you need to twist Jesus tasted death for every man?

so much scripture against your view and you still keep believing that trash withered tulip. exegesis is another sure way to catch a calvinist, no normal human uses that word in day to day life. but these geeks will use it regularly. misrepresentation is another one. just like you misrepresented anderson, go listen to his sermon on 1 corinthians 6:9-10 before you speak about that again. or is it only the reformed who cant be misrepresented? you dont mind claiming people worship their wills or boast of their decisional regeneration but no one does that, doesnt stop you guys from vomiting that argument out of your mouths every 30seconds.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
1,928
113
You have said that you are acquainted with what the Primitive Baptist believe, if so, you know that we do not believe that all of the salvation scriptures pertain to eternal salvation. Salvation by Greek translation means "a deliverance". There is an eternal deliverance and there is a timely deliverance that the born again child receives while he sojourns here on earth. The natural man will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern until he has been born of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new birth. When a born again child of God commits a sin he does not lose his eternal inheritance, but he loses his fellowship with God because God will not fellowship with sin. When a born again child of God is pricked in his fleshy heart by the Holy Spirit and made to feel guilty, then he repents and when God forgives him he has been delivered (saved) from the consequences of the sin to a fellowship with God again. Another scripture that we differ in our interpretation off is Matt 7:13-14 - We interpret the strait gate and narrow way that leads to life and there be few that find it, as the life has reference to that good and abundant life that God has promised his elect if they are are preaching and teaching the meat of the gospel of Jesus and following his commandments. Those who enter the wide gate are also the elect who are still babes in Christ and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works and are in need of being taught the meat of the word that the only righteousness that they have is the imputed righteousness of Christ. We believe that repentance saves (delivers) you here in time which has nothing to do with your eternal salvation. otherwise it would be eternal deliverance by the works of repentance.
At the danger of encouraging you to engage me further, I'll ask you to read Matthew 7 as a whole and ask yourself if salvation is the context in this chapter.

Then, ask yourself if it is proper to hold your interpretation of Matt 7:13-14 given the context.

Regarding your "temporary" versus "eternal" distinction, it is true that ancient Israel was delivered, in a physical sense, many times from its' enemies. This is typological of the believers' deliverance from his enemies. However, from past posts you've made to me, you are applying this same concept to some sort of "temporal salvation", and splitting it from "eternal salvation" apparently.

This sounds antinomian to me, and gives the person a false sense of security. It also sounds like a dispensationalist hermeneutic. Darby and others claimed that the "kingdom of God" is different than the "kingdom of heaven", without realizing that if they examined a harmony of the gospels, Matthew as a Jew preferred the phrase "kingdom of heaven", likely to avoid using God's name.

So, I would wonder if Primitive Baptists are dispensationalists. They tend to like to split things out like this. It could be that hard shell Baptists split it out like this to allow them to live immoral lives while still having a sense of assurance.

In Reformed theology, the person who is in a habitual sin needs to draw closer to God and confess his sin. Ultimately, if immorality is the normal path of his life, he should consider whether he is really in the faith or not. He wouldn't fool himself by separating the temporal salvation from the eternal salvation.

In fact, that is what the doctrine of perseverance of the saints is about. The Father elects certain individuals, the Son atones for their sin, and the Holy Spirit applies the benefits of the atonement to them. One of the benefits includes perseverance.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,864
1,418
113
calvinist logic : you get antibiotics, you read the label and consume them according to the instruction. now you can boast you healed yourself :poop:
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
1,928
113
This guy is not worth listening to. He says the LGBTQ ppl can’t be saved and should just take a gun to their head. He also is an anti-semite, and has been banned from entering certain countries, too.

He offers no exegesis of those verses, just blurts them out.
You're talking about Steven Anderson? He's a real nut job. He doesn't tell homosexuals to repent, instead he tells them to shoot themselves. This is a doctrine of demons.

I wonder if perhaps he has homosexual desires, or perhaps was molested at some point. It's hard to say. I personally don't think he's a Christian. He reminds me a bit of Peewee Herman when he speaks.
 
Dec 9, 2011
12,449
1,323
113
i wouldnt trust God of calvinism if i was you. He might just be deceiving you into thinking you are elect but then like judas you will fall in the end and you wont persevere. now that is sad.
Also like one member said,a Calvinist might be looking In a glass mirror for their GOD and realize they are looking at him.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
you dont mind claiming people worship their wills or boast of their decisional regeneration but no one does that,
Yes, I would agree on this 100%
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,567
867
113
At the danger of encouraging you to engage me further, I'll ask you to read Matthew 7 as a whole and ask yourself if salvation is the context in this chapter.

Then, ask yourself if it is proper to hold your interpretation of Matt 7:13-14 given the context.

Regarding your "temporary" versus "eternal" distinction, it is true that ancient Israel was delivered, in a physical sense, many times from its' enemies. This is typological of the believers' deliverance from his enemies. However, from past posts you've made to me, you are applying this same concept to some sort of "temporal salvation", and splitting it from "eternal salvation" apparently.

This sounds antinomian to me, and gives the person a false sense of security. It also sounds like a dispensationalist hermeneutic. Darby and others claimed that the "kingdom of God" is different than the "kingdom of heaven", without realizing that if they examined a harmony of the gospels, Matthew as a Jew preferred the phrase "kingdom of heaven", likely to avoid using God's name.

So, I would wonder if Primitive Baptists are dispensationalists. They tend to like to split things out like this. It could be that hard shell Baptists split it out like this to allow them to live immoral lives while still having a sense of assurance.

In Reformed theology, the person who is in a habitual sin needs to draw closer to God and confess his sin. Ultimately, if immorality is the normal path of his life, he should consider whether he is really in the faith or not. He wouldn't fool himself by separating the temporal salvation from the eternal salvation.

In fact, that is what the doctrine of perseverance of the saints is about. The Father elects certain individuals, the Son atones for their sin, and the Holy Spirit applies the benefits of the atonement to them. One of the benefits includes perseverance.
Actually the whole bible is written to eternally delivered children of God instructing them how to live their lives here on earth. That is why most of the salvation scriptures have reference to a timely deliverance. The chapter 7 of Matthew does not actually contain the word "saved", "salvation" but it does imply timely deliverance; Ask, and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find. Judge not, that ye be not judged. Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, do ye even so much to them. The two gates, themselves, according to my interpretation implies timely deliverance and not eternal. Anyway, I will not engage with you further, as I do not want you to feel obligated to engage with me. You just enjoy yourself with responding to others scriptures that you feel more comfortably in discussing.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
1,928
113
Actually the whole bible is written to eternally delivered children of God instructing them how to live their lives here on earth. That is why most of the salvation scriptures have reference to a timely deliverance. The chapter 7 of Matthew does not actually contain the word "saved", "salvation" but it does imply timely deliverance; Ask, and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find. Judge not, that ye be not judged. Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, do ye even so much to them. The two gates, themselves, according to my interpretation implies timely deliverance and not eternal. Anyway, I will not engage with you further, as I do not want you to feel obligated to engage with me. You just enjoy yourself with responding to others scriptures that you feel more comfortably in discussing.
Since you really didn't thoughtfully read Matthew 7, I will quote it here:

Matthew 7:13-14 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (ESV Strong's)

The juxtaposition is between destruction and life. It is plain that it is talking about eternal consequences.

And, the following verses describe false prophets who get thrown in the fire. That is what I meant by considering context.

It is true that the previous verses seem to be addressing believers, but your interpretation is unlikely if you read the entire chapter. Additionally, it is apparent that "life" and "destruction" has eternal consequences.

I find it interesting how Primitive Baptists are splitting out temporal vs. eternal salvation, though, and I think that their hermeneutic in this regard must have been obtained from dispensationalists. I don't think Reformed dispensationalists like John MacArthur would think highly of their beliefs.

This explains a lot about the weird comments you made on some of my threads.
 

limmuwd

Active member
Oct 12, 2019
177
62
28
56
Kingdom of God
to-him-who-overcomes.com
So you believe in works salvation? We earn our righteousness on our own merit? You need to start reading the Bible from cover to cover, without the tracts or other cult papers you are using to come to these heretical conclusions. And while you are reading, pay attention to context. Every single bad piece of theology can usually be unveiled merely by reading the words in context.

The words in context of the sentence,
the sentence in terms of the paragraph, the paragraph in light of the passage or chapter,
the chapter in light of the book,
the book in light of the Testament (or covenant)
the Covenant in light of the Bible and the Bible in light of Jesus Christ.

I am always bemused by people who think they can earn their own righteous by their works, when the Bible says the opposite!

"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:18-1

We won't even getting into the arrogance of claiming you have earned your own righteous, when the Bible clearly points to Jesus, and him alone!
Oh, young lady, why the anger? As an elder, deacon and Bible teacher in the churches for many years, I have learned to take to heart Paul's exhortation that "a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the Truth." (2Tim 2:24-25)

You are correct in one thing... ALL Scripture must be read and presented in context. I teach often on that - CONTEXT (Ramblings on the Kingdom) And that is exactly what I have been doing for many years now, as I preach in churches and lead Bible Studies and fellowship with fervent saints. :)

It saddens me that so few today understand what "salvation" really is; as Jesus and the Bible teaches it. And even fewer seem to know that being "saved" is only the very first step of our Journey. There is an inheritance awaiting only those who truly Repent, Walk Worthy, and prove their faithfulness to God by their Righteous Deeds.

Yes, to be "saved" one merely only has to "repent, believe and be baptized" as the NT teaches (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 2Cor 7:10)
But the main message of the NT epistles, and what the Lord has given us to teach, is to those who might receive the promises of Rev 2 & 3. For these promises are not for the many who are "saved", but for the few who truly "overcome"; who have "purified themselves" and "made themselves ready."

"Let us rejoice and exult
and give Him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and His bride has made herself ready;
8 to her it has been granted to be clothed
with fine linen, bright and pure”—
for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."

- Rev 19:7-8

The bulk of those who were "saved" yet did not "labor to enter His rest", along with the great mass of mankind who God deemed righteous by their behavior toward God's Elect, will be welcomed into the Kingdom in that Day, as the inheritance of the overcoming saints who are seated with Christ Jesus on His Throne.

Amen. Glory to God for His great plan and purpose!

I've got a meeting and Bible Study this afternoon which I need to prepare for, so I will leave off here for now.
There is nothing like delving into the Word of God and walking the Light!

Peace & Blessings.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,716
113
I had meant to share this with you and forgot. This moment I recalled again and that's why I'm quoting you many pages from where this thread has arrived now.
Per your question above? I think it could possibly not be a mourning factor but rather a means of advertising a retail site.
https://sackclothandashes.com/collections/shop-all

I was a member of a forum years ago where a moderator used a Internet communication service as their screen name. They were part owner. :cool:

"Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away…"

 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
exegesis hahaha. how much exegesis do you need to twist Jesus tasted death for every man?

so much scripture against your view and you still keep believing that trash withered tulip. exegesis is another sure way to catch a calvinist, no normal human uses that word in day to day life. but these geeks will use it regularly. misrepresentation is another one. just like you misrepresented anderson, go listen to his sermon on 1 corinthians 6:9-10 before you speak about that again. or is it only the reformed who cant be misrepresented? you dont mind claiming people worship their wills or boast of their decisional regeneration but no one does that, doesnt stop you guys from vomiting that argument out of your mouths every 30seconds.
John 10:11 & John 10:15 says He is the good Shepherd who gives His life for whom? The sheep. Seeing that not everyone is a sheep in Matthew 25, you(and Anderson) are pitting scripture against scripture. In Ephesians 5:25, Paul said Christ gave His life for whom? The church. Seeing that the church is His body, and not everyone is a part of His body, you(and Anderson) are pitting scripture against scripture.

But carry on with you false ideology. You guys don’t want exegesis. It will tear down your house of cards theology.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,716
113
This guy is not worth listening to. He says the LGBTQ ppl can’t be saved and should just take a gun to their head. He also is an anti-semite, and has been banned from entering certain countries, too.

He offers no exegesis of those verses, just blurts them out.
Exactly. SLAnderson always uses scripture out of context. He's hardly someone to emulate or use as an example of truthful exposition. Not surprised someone would stoop that low in attempt to buffer their erroneous beliefs.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
1,928
113
I agree. These people cry “the sovereignty of God” and fail to recognize that God has other attributes as well like grace and mercy. Sovereignty is not Calvin’s fatalism, but simply God reigns over all creation.

Why pray if the sovereign God already has everything predetermined? I believe God is reachable and touchable with our prayers and has all authority to step in and cause something to happen that in the natural course of time would have never happened, but because we prayed God made a way.

David believed this. See 2 Samuel 12.
Why pray for another's salvation if God doesn't interfere with their will?

By the way, God ordains both the means and the ends. That's what free-willers conveniently "forget" when they bring up your arguments.