Israel... or not?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 25, 2015
8,403
2,651
113
#1
I wanted to start something new on Kaylagrl’s question if we are Israel or not.

Joh 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
Joh 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

The last week I was involved in altercations with people on CC and sometimes you leave this site with a numb feeling. I think this is what Peter felt. He was discouraged and felt like the last three years of his life were adding up to naught.

Peter and his 6 friends are on the boat catching fish with their nets on the left-hand side of the boat. They were tired of struggling all night when Jesus appeared and asked them to cast their nets to the right-hand side of the boat.

The Hebrew word for left is sem-ole a primitive word which can also be translated as dark (as enveloped). So when Peter cast the nets to the left hand side he was “in the dark” without Jesus. When he listened to God his net was full of fish.

We also know that there was 153 fish in the nets and that the phrase could be tied back to the verse in Hosea 1:10 sons of the living God.

Jesus said to his disciples that he will make them fishers of men. What does this have to do with being a Christian and being a part of Israel you might ask? Let the word of God explain the word of God.

Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Jer 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

God said to Israel, that He will scatter them around the world if they don’t obey the covenant He made with them (Deuteronomy) . He tells us in Hosea that the children of Israel will be called sons of the living God (this was after they were scattered). In Jeremiah we are taught that the children of Israel will be caught by fishers and the hunters… Jesus called His disciples fishers of men.

Is this all one big coincidence or can we all agree today that we serve a non-changing God with a perfect Word and plan since day 1?

I believe I am part of Israel and there are more than enough clues in the Bible to indicate we are safe in saying so.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,024
1,784
113
66
#2
Romans 11:17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

This verse talking about the gentiles being grafted into the olive tree - representation of being grafted into Israel.... So yes, I believe we can be part of spiritual Israel.....
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#3
Romans 11:17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

This verse talking about the gentiles being grafted into the olive tree - representation of being grafted into Israel.... So yes, I believe we can be part of spiritual Israel.....

I agree in general but would just add that we are a part of PHYSICAL Israel. The new 'congregation' was made up of physical Jews who had believed on the Messiah. They were physical Israel. And the Gentiles who united with them became physical Israel.

Israel in the time of Jesus was an amalgamation of different members of the twelve tribes descended from an amalgamated Israel that from the beginning had included 'gentiles' even though seen as Israelites from the beginning, a preponderance of Jews, and a large number of Gentile proselytes. They formed physical Israel. Jesus revealed Himself as 'the true vine', the real Israel. Those who became united with Him formed the true physical Israel to whom the promises were confirmed. Those who rejected Him were rejected out of physical Israel. When Gentile proselytes united with the true Israel and the true vine they became part of physical Israel.

There is no physical Israel in God's eyes other than the true church of believers in the Messiah.
 
Last edited:
Jul 27, 2011
1,622
87
0
#4
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Ephesians 2:18-22
 
Feb 1, 2015
1,198
15
0
#5
The wild Olive branch boasting / setting aside the true.

I declare that I am not an Israeli, I'm Wlesh. :)
 
Jan 25, 2015
8,403
2,651
113
#7
I agree in general but would just add that we are a part of PHYSICAL Israel. The new 'congregation' was made up of physical Jews who had believed on the Messiah. They were physical Israel. And the Gentiles who united with them became physical Israel.

Israel in the time of Jesus was an amalgamation of different members of the twelve tribes descended from an amalgamated Israel that from the beginning had included 'gentiles' even though seen as Israelites from the beginning, a preponderance of Jews, and a large number of Gentile proselytes. They formed physical Israel. Jesus revealed Himself as 'the true vine', the real Israel. Those who became united with Him formed the true physical Israel to whom the promises were confirmed. Those who rejected Him were rejected out of physical Israel. When Gentile proselytes united with the true Israel and the true vine they became part of physical Israel.

There is no physical Israel in God's eyes other than the true church of believers in the Messiah.
Yes I do agree. There are only three groups in the Bible; the house of Judah, Israel and the Dogs (gentiles out of covenant)
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#8
Yes I do agree. There are only three groups in the Bible; the house of Judah, Israel and the Dogs (gentiles out of covenant)
or as quoted in scripture - Give none offense, neither to the (1) Jew, nor to the (2) Gentiles, nor to (3) the church of God:
1 Cor. 10:32 . . . . three groups of peoples.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#9
The wild Olive branch boasting / setting aside the true.

I declare that I am not an Israeli, I'm Wlesh. :)
Israelis are not Israel either. They are a conglomeration of persecuted peoples who found refuge there.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,927
3,347
113
#10
ISRAEL

Revelation 21:12 KJVS
[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


THE CHURCH

Revelation 21:14 KJVS
[14] And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
113
#11
We also know that there was 153 fish in the nets and that the phrase could be tied back to the verse in Hosea 1:10 sons of the living God.
153 is a most interesting number. I am aware of the 153/sons of GOD connection that you may be alluding to.

So Simon Peter got into the boat and hauled the net to the land, full of great fish—one hundred fifty-three—and although there were so many, the net was not torn. John 21:11

However, the most compelling explanation I've seen so far for this number in John 21 is found in Ezekiel 47, (mainly because it is scriptural and fits the context of the time so well) which speaks of the apostles and workers of the gospel gathering all Israel through the work of the holy spirit.

Then said he unto me, These waters issue out [of the temple] toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the [Dead] sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. Ezekiel 47:8-10

The word En in Engedi and Eneglaim means spring, so the latter means the spring of Eglaim. Using gematria, in Hebrew the word Eglaim equals 153, and Gedi equals 17. I won't get into details, but 153 is a remarkable number intricately associated with the number 17 (9 x 17 = 153, for starts).
 
Last edited:

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,895
670
113
#12
Yes I do agree. There are only three groups in the Bible; the house of Judah, Israel and the Dogs (gentiles out of covenant)
Well, i am a saved gentile. To which tribe of Israel you then belong?
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
#13
I wanted to start something new on Kaylagrl’s question if we are Israel or not.

Joh 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
Joh 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

The last week I was involved in altercations with people on CC and sometimes you leave this site with a numb feeling. I think this is what Peter felt. He was discouraged and felt like the last three years of his life were adding up to naught.

Peter and his 6 friends are on the boat catching fish with their nets on the left-hand side of the boat. They were tired of struggling all night when Jesus appeared and asked them to cast their nets to the right-hand side of the boat.

The Hebrew word for left is sem-ole a primitive word which can also be translated as dark (as enveloped). So when Peter cast the nets to the left hand side he was “in the dark” without Jesus. When he listened to God his net was full of fish.

We also know that there was 153 fish in the nets and that the phrase could be tied back to the verse in Hosea 1:10 sons of the living God.

Jesus said to his disciples that he will make them fishers of men. What does this have to do with being a Christian and being a part of Israel you might ask? Let the word of God explain the word of God.

Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Jer 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

God said to Israel, that He will scatter them around the world if they don’t obey the covenant He made with them (Deuteronomy) . He tells us in Hosea that the children of Israel will be called sons of the living God (this was after they were scattered). In Jeremiah we are taught that the children of Israel will be caught by fishers and the hunters… Jesus called His disciples fishers of men.

Is this all one big coincidence or can we all agree today that we serve a non-changing God with a perfect Word and plan since day 1?

I believe I am part of Israel and there are more than enough clues in the Bible to indicate we are safe in saying so.

While you may be part of the "Israel of God" you are not going to negate the great testimony of the Old Testament that shows that Israel, the Nation, was a people created by God as a witness nation, who is not the "Church of the New Testament," nor is she nullified as being a people, or the People of God.


The last week I was involved in altercations with people on CC and sometimes you leave this site with a numb feeling.

I think this is what Peter felt. He was discouraged and felt like the last three years of his life were adding up to naught.

We don't have to "think" about what Peter felt, that is actually irrelevant to the reality of the situation as it unfolds.

Peter's ministry under Christ served a singular purpose we don't confuse with Peter's ministry after being Baptized with the Spirit of God.

Peter was not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel, which is why Peter rebuked Christ when Christ delivered the Gospel of Jesus Christ directly to the disciples:


Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Here we see Peter in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their idea of the Prophesied Messiah was not tempered with New Testament Revelation. They expected Messiah to ride in on a white horse in victorious defeat of the enemies of Israel.

Their Messiah die?

Absurd...in their minds.

Peter then shows opposition to the Gospel when he takes up a sword and seeks to preserve Christ's life through physical warfare, again showing he did not understand. We see again that Peter had no understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he vehemently denies with cursing that he doesn't even know Christ.

Finally, we see the carnal understanding of the disciples on the very Day of Ascension:


Acts 1:4-6

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


What? They are just told in a few days they are going to be Baptized with the Holy Ghost...and they are still concerned about the temporal?

The bottom line is that the Church did not begin until men began being eternally indwelt by God, contrasted with the filling of the Spirit we see in the Old Testament.

So we cannot equate the "People of God" in the Old Testament with the People of God in the New.

Those who try to do so deny that these Two Peoples, that is, those of faith, are distinctly made One through Christ...not before. Before there is a separation of Israel and Gentile, and while the Israel of God, the true "Jew" at heart, those obedient to the revelation of God were found among both Jew and Gentile, we do not find the Church, which is comprised of people from all families of the earth, which is the fulfillment of the Promise made to Abraham:


Genesis 12

King James Version (KJV)
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.



Relationship with God under Law was through the Covenant of Law, specific to Israel, the Nation. But the promise of God was salvation for all men, and that salvation would be through Christ and faith in His Name:


Isaiah 42

King James Version (KJV)
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;


The last week I was involved in altercations with people on CC and sometimes you leave this site with a numb feeling. I think this is what Peter felt. He was discouraged and felt like the last three years of his life were adding up to naught.

My friend, don't let debate and heated argument discourage you. You are on one of the best training grounds I think there has ever arose for the Bible Student.

The difference between you and Peter sitting there on the shore is that unlike Peter...you have not given up hope in the Christ of Scripture, and returned to a former life. The advantage you have over Peter at that moment in his life is that you, like any born again believer, have the benefit of a retrospect understanding of Peter and the disciples prior to their eternal indwelling. You have the New Testament at your disposal to understand the Mystery of Christ, and the ability to put Peter's actions into a proper context.

Your only responsibility in regards to Scripture is to seek to understand it, and to rightly divide the truth of God's Word. Don't expect that to be something that will ever end, and don't let debates discourage you. Take advantage of the points that will arise and force you to dig deeper, to not only consider but address a perspective you haven't considered before. It is very true, it is like digging through treasure, taking out and examining new treasures, marveling at the wonder of God's Word.

And sometimes, perhaps oftentimes, we are going to disagree with others. People can accept you just as you are...until you disagree with them, lol.

The only way we can ever think our efforts are "all for naught," is to erroneously conclude that our efforts have reached some point in which further efforts are not necessary. For Peter, his usefulness to the Lord has a two-fold purpose, one in which Christ's Ministry which was specific to Israel the Nation was the prominent theme, and then that ministry in which he would be instrumental to God in establishing the Church, which has Christ's Ministry in regards to the Eternal as the prominent theme.

And if we confuse those two ministries, and impose something into the Old Testament which, while mentioned in the Old Testament, remained Prophecy and Promise until it was fulfilled.

Jew and Gentile are made One in the New Testament through Christ. This does not happen in the Old Testament. If it had, then we would have a record of it, rather than what we do have, which is Prophecy and Promise.


God bless.
 
P

P1LGR1M

Guest
#14
Israelis are not Israel either. They are a conglomeration of persecuted peoples who found refuge there.
On what do you base that statement?

God bless.
 
Oct 21, 2015
2,420
12
0
#15
I wanted to start something new on Kaylagrl’s question if we are Israel or not.

Joh 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
Joh 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

The last week I was involved in altercations with people on CC and sometimes you leave this site with a numb feeling. I think this is what Peter felt. He was discouraged and felt like the last three years of his life were adding up to naught.

Peter and his 6 friends are on the boat catching fish with their nets on the left-hand side of the boat. They were tired of struggling all night when Jesus appeared and asked them to cast their nets to the right-hand side of the boat.

The Hebrew word for left is sem-ole a primitive word which can also be translated as dark (as enveloped). So when Peter cast the nets to the left hand side he was “in the dark” without Jesus. When he listened to God his net was full of fish.

We also know that there was 153 fish in the nets and that the phrase could be tied back to the verse in Hosea 1:10 sons of the living God.

Jesus said to his disciples that he will make them fishers of men. What does this have to do with being a Christian and being a part of Israel you might ask? Let the word of God explain the word of God.

Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Jer 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

God said to Israel, that He will scatter them around the world if they don’t obey the covenant He made with them (Deuteronomy) . He tells us in Hosea that the children of Israel will be called sons of the living God (this was after they were scattered). In Jeremiah we are taught that the children of Israel will be caught by fishers and the hunters… Jesus called His disciples fishers of men.

Is this all one big coincidence or can we all agree today that we serve a non-changing God with a perfect Word and plan since day 1?

I believe I am part of Israel and there are more than enough clues in the Bible to indicate we are safe in saying so.
Yes in deauteronomy 30 Moses did prophecy they would be scattered, but ge also prophesied God would bring them back to the land
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,261
4,742
113
#16
I wanted to start something new on Kaylagrl’s question if we are Israel or not.

Joh 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
Joh 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

The last week I was involved in altercations with people on CC and sometimes you leave this site with a numb feeling. I think this is what Peter felt. He was discouraged and felt like the last three years of his life were adding up to naught.

Peter and his 6 friends are on the boat catching fish with their nets on the left-hand side of the boat. They were tired of struggling all night when Jesus appeared and asked them to cast their nets to the right-hand side of the boat.

The Hebrew word for left is sem-ole a primitive word which can also be translated as dark (as enveloped). So when Peter cast the nets to the left hand side he was “in the dark” without Jesus. When he listened to God his net was full of fish.

We also know that there was 153 fish in the nets and that the phrase could be tied back to the verse in Hosea 1:10 sons of the living God.

Jesus said to his disciples that he will make them fishers of men. What does this have to do with being a Christian and being a part of Israel you might ask? Let the word of God explain the word of God.

Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Jer 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

God said to Israel, that He will scatter them around the world if they don’t obey the covenant He made with them (Deuteronomy) . He tells us in Hosea that the children of Israel will be called sons of the living God (this was after they were scattered). In Jeremiah we are taught that the children of Israel will be caught by fishers and the hunters… Jesus called His disciples fishers of men.

Is this all one big coincidence or can we all agree today that we serve a non-changing God with a perfect Word and plan since day 1?

I believe I am part of Israel and there are more than enough clues in the Bible to indicate we are safe in saying so.


Lol good luck! I sure didnt think I'd start such a firestorm! Though I disagree with you on this, I appreciate posts we've shared in other forums. I dont come here to make enemies. So I hope we can agree to disagree.And still be friendly on here.And that is for everyone. :)
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
113
#17
ISRAEL

Revelation 21:12 KJVS
[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


THE CHURCH

Revelation 21:14 KJVS
[14] And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
But the number 12 always represents Israel.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,179
17,540
113
#18
Romans 11:17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

This verse talking about the gentiles being grafted into the olive tree - representation of being grafted into Israel.... So yes, I believe we can be part of spiritual Israel.....

I do not get this.

The tree is Christ Not Israel Israel was cut off. And we, as gentiles were grafted in..
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,179
17,540
113
#20
Yes I do agree. There are only three groups in the Bible; the house of Judah, Israel and the Dogs (gentiles out of covenant)

so the time before Jacob was born means absolutely nothing? We have some 2000 years of history where Israel was not even a gleem in his fathers eye, and it means nothing?

I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just saying. It has not all been about isreal. So many things on this earth ccured before Israel was even thought of..