Israel... or not?

crossnote · Nov 16, 2015

Those who think the Church is now Israel are having a true identity crisis. ..

Zechariah 12:2-10 (KJV)
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Nov 16, 2015

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This sounds like the wars of the Maccabees until verse 9. Verse 10 is obviously the crucifixion and Pentecost. John 19:37 says Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled then.

Also, it's interesting that you project this prophecy into the future considering the fact that verses 11-14 describe families that no longer exist.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:11-14

crossnote said:

DP · Nov 16, 2015

JaumeJ said:

The title of Jew originated from the sole tribe of Judah, and originally only applied to one's birth of the tribe of Judah.

That title of Jew then began to be applied to the tribe of Benjamin also, when Benjamin joined with the tribe of Judah at Jerusalem/Judea under Solomon's son Rehoboam after God had split Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11-12). This is why Apostle Paul said he was a Jew while also having been born of the tribe of Benjamin.

That title of Jew also began to be applied to foreigners living in the lands of Judea. It also became a title for one's land of dwelling, regardless of national origin. A modern parallel would be how some of the Vietnamese families that were re-located to the state of Texas after the Vietnam war. Those can claim they are Texans also, since that's now where their dwelling is.

Then that title of Jew was applied to anyone of foreign birth that converted to the Jew's religion, which is still how it is used today, i.e., the Black singer Sammy Davis, Jr. was a Jew, having converted to the Jew's religion of Judaism.

But that title of Jew never... applied to the seed of Israel that made up the northern ten-tribed "kingdom of Israel".

Then ten northern tribes of Israel that made up the northern "kingdom of Israel" were the tribes of Ephraim (its head tribe), Manaaseh, Asher, Naphtali, Zebulun, Gad, Dan, Issachar, Reuben, Simeon. These were not called Jews. They were called Israel. And these made up the majority of the peoples of Israel then.

Thus:

"kingdom of Judah" = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some out of the northern ten tribes that left the idol worship in the north that king Jeroboam of Ephraim had setup; and then strangers that lived in the land from other nationalities, including Solomon's bondservants (leftovers from the nations of Canaan which Israel was not able to destroy).

"kingdom of Israel" = the ten northern tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Reuben, Simeon, Gad, Dan, Asher, Naphtali, Issachar, Zebulun. All these God removed out of the holy land because they fell to Baal idol worship. For a time they were captive to Assyria and the land of Medes, and then from there were further scattered through the countries, never to return to the holy land, even to this day. But it is God's promise that He will gather them back with Judah in final. Ezekiel 48 shows their inheritances in the holy land in final.

DP · Nov 16, 2015

valiant said:

Most of Judah is not lost. God promised they would not lose their heritage, as it is still so today, especially among the orthodox ones. Even many of the non-orthodox Jewish converts to Christ Jesus still keep their heritage.

Most of Israel (ten tribes) are lost. That is the great subject of the Book of Hosea. God hedged up their paths so they would not remember their way back, and He said He gave them the full weight of their fall into Baal worship which He called their lovers. He said He gave them up, and called them Lo-Ami (not My people). They were taken captive to foreign lands, took different names and customs in false worship, lost knowledge of God's feasts and sabbaths, and literally lost their heritage as being of Israel. They became as... Gentiles, living among Gentiles, even to the point where the majority of them still today think they are Gentiles. Yet God promised elsewhere in the OT prophets that He would always provide a remnant of them that would know the truth.

DP · Nov 16, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

You'll find out who they are, and where the majority of them were scattered by God soon enough. Just wait a little longer for Christ's second coming, you'll know then. The reason why I can say this with certainty is because I've done' my homework in God's Word about it, while you instead depend on the word of others. Of all the things you may depend upon others to do for you, study in all of God's Word is not something you should let them do for you.

DP · Nov 16, 2015

crossnote said:

You're making a statement in ignorance.

The name "Israel" is the name God gave Jacob to represent His Birthright Blessing, which includes The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The word Israel itself means 'to overcome with God's help'. And that's what Christ's true Church is, overcomers!

The un-believing nation majority of Israel in the holy land today is still Israel also, simply because God has not forgotten them, which is who that Zech.12 Scripture is primarily about, i.e, Judah, the Jews. That is showing the day when their blindness to The Gospel will be removed, and they will believe on Jesus. Will you say when that happens their future belief on Jesus still separates them from God's Church?

HeRoseFromTheDead · Nov 16, 2015

DP said:

If they assimilated with the gentiles they became gentiles. They married gentiles and had gentile children, who did the same for thousands of years. The only way these people can/could become Israel is through faith.

crossnote · Nov 16, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I guess Jesus was a gentile and not a Jew since his ancestry on Mary's side had some Gentiles mixed in.

DP · Nov 16, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

That is not really that true, because in past centuries, unlike today, the Gentiles also were very strict in not mixing up their race. If it were otherwise, then the existence of today's races would be completely unrecognizable.

But keep trying to persuade against their existence today, while God's Word shows what would happen to the ten tribes, and how they would wind up in the last days, for even the whole Genesis 49 chapter is a prophecy for the time of the end given by Jacob to his twelve sons as to what would befall them in the last days.

JaumeJ · Nov 17, 2015

You demonstrate some knowledge. The "title," Jew, is derived from Leah's naming her added male child when she declared I will now "praise Yah" for He has given me another male child. It is superfluous to show how much of any language one knows if he does not understand dthe intent of the words given in the Word. All who praise Yah, are Jews in the pure sense of the translation of the name. It has nothing to do with the tribe, only that all who love andknow God, praise Him.

Just as all who are of God are of His Kingdom. the spiritual Israel, by translation, and by designe.

DP said:

The title of Jew originated from the sole tribe of Judah, and originally only applied to one's birth of the tribe of Judah.

That title of Jew then began to be applied to the tribe of Benjamin also, when Benjamin joined with the tribe of Judah at Jerusalem/Judea under Solomon's son Rehoboam after God had split Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11-12). This is why Apostle Paul said he was a Jew while also having been born of the tribe of Benjamin.

That title of Jew also began to be applied to foreigners living in the lands of Judea. It also became a title for one's land of dwelling, regardless of national origin. A modern parallel would be how some of the Vietnamese families that were re-located to the state of Texas after the Vietnam war. Those can claim they are Texans also, since that's now where their dwelling is.

Then that title of Jew was applied to anyone of foreign birth that converted to the Jew's religion, which is still how it is used today, i.e., the Black singer Sammy Davis, Jr. was a Jew, having converted to the Jew's religion of Judaism.

But that title of Jew never... applied to the seed of Israel that made up the northern ten-tribed "kingdom of Israel".

Then ten northern tribes of Israel that made up the northern "kingdom of Israel" were the tribes of Ephraim (its head tribe), Manaaseh, Asher, Naphtali, Zebulun, Gad, Dan, Issachar, Reuben, Simeon. These were not called Jews. They were called Israel. And these made up the majority of the peoples of Israel then.

Thus:

"kingdom of Judah" = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some out of the northern ten tribes that left the idol worship in the north that king Jeroboam of Ephraim had setup; and then strangers that lived in the land from other nationalities, including Solomon's bondservants (leftovers from the nations of Canaan which Israel was not able to destroy).

"kingdom of Israel" = the ten northern tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Reuben, Simeon, Gad, Dan, Asher, Naphtali, Issachar, Zebulun. All these God removed out of the holy land because they fell to Baal idol worship. For a time they were captive to Assyria and the land of Medes, and then from there were further scattered through the countries, never to return to the holy land, even to this day. But it is God's promise that He will gather them back with Judah in final. Ezekiel 48 shows their inheritances in the holy land in final.

valiant · Nov 17, 2015

crossnote said:

This was fulfilled in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes.

This was the consequence of the rise of the Maccabees.

This was literally what happened.

Again descriptive of the successes of the Maccabees.

The consequence of the Maccabean successes and subsequent failure was the coming of Jesus Christ Who was pierced on the cross as a consequence of which the Holy Spirit was poured out.

So how does this prove your point?

valiant · Nov 17, 2015

crossnote said:

But this is where you continually go wrong. Many Gentiles became Jews and were at least theoretically counted as full Jews. In the days of Jesus Few Jews could prove their ancestry any distance back. It is a misconception to suggest that all Jews are descended from Jacob. Even at the beginning many Israelites were born from the servants of the patriarchal tribes, some of whom would be Gentiles. Furthermore many were Israelites because they were adopted into Israel by becoming true worshippers of YHWH. Jews are very much of mixed blood. Indeed there were very few Jews who did not have Gentile blood in them. And yes Jesus certainly did.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Nov 17, 2015

DP said:

Non-sequitur. Also a total falsehood. Assimilation happens in any culture, and it happened especially in the past when slave women were commonly raped, and slaves procreated with whom they could, or with whom they were told.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Nov 17, 2015

crossnote said:

That just proves that being an Israelite isn't about DNA purity, but GOD's choice and keeping covenant. Those Israelites who became assimilated broke the covenant of circumcision, and were therefore no longer Israelites, no matter what their DNA said. They were cut off. The idea that someone is an Israelite because 0.00001% of their DNA comes from Abraham is ridiculous.

P1LGR1M · Nov 17, 2015

DP said:

When Apostle Peter quotes from an OT Scripture that was originally given to the children of Israel, and then Peter applies that to Christ's Church; that's not an issue?? IT MOST DEFINITELY IS! It proves how Apostle Peter saw Christ's Church in relation to God's Israel.

Then you deny what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3 about those of Faith are the children of Abraham:

Gal 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
KJV

(Have I really... come to a true Christian forum here? Many times it doesn't seem Christian at all, with all the folks here that are bent on denying so much of the written Word of God!)

You don't know what Faith Abraham's Faith represents, do you? which is why Apostle Paul said those of Faith are the children of Abraham. It's because the blessing God gave to Abraham INCLUDED The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Abraham's Faith was in the same Gospel Promise we have believed, that's why he is our spiritual father per Paul.

You're latter tirade only contained a few points of validity, the rest was pure doctrinal traditions from men.

Because the Church foundation of Eph.2 includes God's OT prophets has nothing to do with stupid exalting. It has everything to do with The Gospel of Jesus Christ, for The Gospel is found in the OT Books also, even starting at Gen.3. The Book of Isaiah is one the greatest OT Books about God's Salvation through His Son. THAT... is why those prophets are included in the foundation of Ephesians 2, along with the Apostles and our Lord Jesus as the Cornerstone.

But the corruptions of men's traditions you've latched onto try to destroy that connection of the OT prophets linked with the foundation of Christ's Church, and that includes their importance still TODAY for Christ's Church, even all the way into God's Eternity since God gave them to write about it in His Word!

You're parallel to America is outlandish also. I'm sorry that my ancestors of the American Revolution whipped Britain's butt, twice, but that was history, get over it.

With your attempt to use Ezra as evidence for your view, you have turned God's Holy Writ upside down, just in order to keep your tradition of men. No wonder your tradition denies the scattering of the ten-tribed house of Israel by the kings of Assyria PRIOR to Judah's later Babylon captivity!

By not recognizing the majority of Israelites were not there in the return per the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah, you have just left the small remnant of the house of Judah that returned from Babylon as the ONLY seed of Israel.

2 Kings 17:18
18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of His sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
KJV

See, you can't make Scripture like Ezra 2:70 mean all Israel without turning other parts of God's Word upside down. You wouldn't have done that if you actually knew your OT history better. Go back to 1 Kings 11 and read forward to that 2 Kings 17 chapter.

Note this also:

2 Chron 11:13-17
13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.
14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:
15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
KJV

Starting at 1 Kings 12, old Israel was split into two separate kingdoms. Some of the people out of all the tribes of Israel in the north refused king Jeroboam's golden calf worship, so they went down to Jerusalem and sided with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The Levites in the north did also. Those in the southern kingdom were called "kingdom of Judah" (thus above), and also "house of Judah".

My point? ONLY those of the "house of Judah" went into the Babylon captivity by Nebuchadnezzar. The ten tribed northern "kingdom of Israel" or "house of Israel", was already... gone... out of the land by then. SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE TEN TRIBES RETURNING WITH EZRA BACK TO JERUSALEM AFTER THE 70 YEARS BABYLON CAPTIVITY WHEN THE TEN TRIBES WERE NOT... EVEN A PART OF THE BABYLON CAPTIVITY IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?

No, instead, you've just accepted a false history about the Book of Ezra of those who deny the real history outlined in God's Holy Writ. It shows you have not really looked into that Biblical history for yourself, but just took other's word for it.

In Luke 2, you'll find one Anna, who was of the tribe of Asher, and she spoke of Jesus. Does that prove all 12 tribes of Israel were back together in that day? Of course not, because OT histories reveals the ten tribes were scattered.

So when James 1:1 addressed the 12 tribes "scattered abroad", that's exactly... what he meant.

It means Israelites of the SEED of Israel scattered among the nations of Gentiles, not the other way around which is a stupid idea.

I can see it is fruitless to try to discuss this.

You are simply not going to deny the fact that all Twelve Tribes are going to be sealed (Manasseh replacing Dan being the exception) in the Tribulation, which points to the fact that the Twelve Tribes listed there will be in fact of those Tribes.

My point was that the Twelve Tribes were in fact the Twelve Tribes in James, rather than it referring to the mythology that Gentile believers become members of Tribes of Israel.

I guess you are the only Christian here, my friend, and my but you must be lonesome.

So I'll drop out of this thread and not interrupt any more.

I'll instead concentrate on the Rapture thread, lol. Much more fun, and something that actually has a basis for debate, rather than trying to convince someone that Gentiles are Gentiles, and Jews are Jews, and that the Body of Christ is neither.

God bless.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Nov 17, 2015

valiant said:

I credit the exclusion of Maccabees from the bible for protestant's abysmal ignorance of that era. In their minds, the time from Malachi to Christ is a complete blank. No wonder they have gotten so confused about prophecy.

Timeline · Nov 17, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I have not read past post #11 so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I am always reminded of the story where a king send out fifty and a commander to, I believe it was, Elijah and they die. Then again, and they die as well. But then the third commander pleads for mercy and he and his fifty are spared.

I also think its interesting that two thirds are killed and one third is spared.

I do think there is a deeper meaning (because I don't believe any information given in the Bible is random, or unimportant) to the exact number being given. I just don't know what it is. The 3 "51s" is just the closest thing that I can recall from scripture.

JaumeJ · Nov 17, 2015

Almost all gentiles who embraced the government of Israel, that is its theocracy, were considered Israel, if not immediately, in two generations. There were exceptions, but I believe they were destroyed back when...

crossnote · Nov 17, 2015

JaumeJ said:

That was then, this is now. Today, Jew and Gentile comprise the One New Man ...the Church. After the Church is removed, God will be dealing directly again with Israel, fulfilling many of the unfulfilled prophecies in the OT.

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Israel... or not?

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