Israel... or not?
- Thread starter GandalfTheWhite
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lol.. Ok, Now you went too far.. Your holding Gods hands and tieing them behind his back.
God could have done whatever he wanted, He chose to have Jesus born as a son of abraham and son of david. But it did nnt have to be that way.
I know you all love to hold on to a belief, But your reasons to hold onto it is not worth it, And is not going to convince anyone to change their minds.
God could have done whatever he wanted, He chose to have Jesus born as a son of abraham and son of david. But it did nnt have to be that way.
I know you all love to hold on to a belief, But your reasons to hold onto it is not worth it, And is not going to convince anyone to change their minds.
you cannot be a saved Gentile. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. All are one in the true Israel.
Actually as an ex-Gentile who has become a proselyte of the true Israel you can choose which tribe you wish to belong to
Actually as an ex-Gentile who has become a proselyte of the true Israel you can choose which tribe you wish to belong to
Yes, God's Israel is His Church, which is Christ's Church, for the meaning of 'church' is about the congregation of God's people, Christ's body.
1 Cor 10:1-4
10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
KJV
Heb 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
KJV
The OT believers looked for the Promise of Christ. They didn't live to the time to see it, and that's all. It does not mean they knew nothing about it. We cannot... exclude them from Christ's Salvation.
Per the OT prophecy, Jacob's seed was to become "a company of nations", and Ephraim, the son of Joseph, his seed was to become "a multitude of nations". God accomplished that with scattered Israel which became the founders of the western Christian nations and its dominions under Christ Jesus. The believing Gentiles of all nations were graffed in.
Yet also, God promised He would turn unbelieving Israel (mostly Jews today) and gather both the "house of Judah" (Jews) and the "house of Israel" (scattered ten tribes) back together again in final, and make them one stick (Ezek.37), and bring them back into the lands He promised their fathers with David as their prince. God also promised that He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem per 1 Kings 11. So the nation state of Israel today also belongs to God and is by His Hand, even though the majority of Jews there are still deceived away from Christ Jesus.
It's because many Jewish brethren are deceived about Christ today that a consternation between them and Christ's Church is still going on, as Apostle Paul revealed in Rom.11 this would happen until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. When Jesus returns, they will then understand, God's blindness He put upon them then being removed. Don't write them off.
1 Cor 10:1-4
10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
KJV
Heb 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
KJV
The OT believers looked for the Promise of Christ. They didn't live to the time to see it, and that's all. It does not mean they knew nothing about it. We cannot... exclude them from Christ's Salvation.
Per the OT prophecy, Jacob's seed was to become "a company of nations", and Ephraim, the son of Joseph, his seed was to become "a multitude of nations". God accomplished that with scattered Israel which became the founders of the western Christian nations and its dominions under Christ Jesus. The believing Gentiles of all nations were graffed in.
Yet also, God promised He would turn unbelieving Israel (mostly Jews today) and gather both the "house of Judah" (Jews) and the "house of Israel" (scattered ten tribes) back together again in final, and make them one stick (Ezek.37), and bring them back into the lands He promised their fathers with David as their prince. God also promised that He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem per 1 Kings 11. So the nation state of Israel today also belongs to God and is by His Hand, even though the majority of Jews there are still deceived away from Christ Jesus.
It's because many Jewish brethren are deceived about Christ today that a consternation between them and Christ's Church is still going on, as Apostle Paul revealed in Rom.11 this would happen until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. When Jesus returns, they will then understand, God's blindness He put upon them then being removed. Don't write them off.
that isn't even close to the text, maybe close to your theology. You never explained the distinction made between the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles if they are supposedly the same. Also the text shows their names are written on the gates and foundations...not that they are the New Jerusalem.
Elsewhere it says the New Jerusalem was prepared AS A BRIDE...doesn't say it is the Bride.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, newJerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Elsewhere it says the New Jerusalem was prepared AS A BRIDE...doesn't say it is the Bride.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, newJerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
It's a 'commonwealth' of Israel, like Apostle Paul said in Ephesians 2.
What's a commonwealth? A commonwealth is a group of associated nations. That is how God's future Kingdom on earth will manifest after the GWT Judgment.
Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV
What's a commonwealth? A commonwealth is a group of associated nations. That is how God's future Kingdom on earth will manifest after the GWT Judgment.
Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV
actually I did but as usual you didn't read what your opponent SAYS (or if you do you don't think). The twelve tribes of Israel included the Old Testament saints. The twelve Apostles summed up the New Testament saints. The New Jerusalem is all the saints of God through the ages.
see below
How totally pathetic. The usual American dodge. No wonder you never find the truth. You simply avoid the truth with wangles. The previous two chapters have described the church as a bride for her husband. So John is stupid enough to cause confusion? Come off it.
Something/someone that has been 'prepared as a bride'. Who is prepared as bride for a husband? THE BRIDE LOL. What else can she be? A fake?.
Absolutely she was prepared as a bride. Every bride is prepared as a bride. This was Jesus' bride, His church.
If you avoid the clear statement of Scripture you lose any credence in my eyes that you ever had. You might play with the English, you can't play with the Greek. Oh of course I forgot. Futurism depends on constantly twisting the Greek. That's one reason I gave it up. In the end honesty prevailed.
see below
How totally pathetic. The usual American dodge. No wonder you never find the truth. You simply avoid the truth with wangles. The previous two chapters have described the church as a bride for her husband. So John is stupid enough to cause confusion? Come off it.
Something/someone that has been 'prepared as a bride'. Who is prepared as bride for a husband? THE BRIDE LOL. What else can she be? A fake?.
Absolutely she was prepared as a bride. Every bride is prepared as a bride. This was Jesus' bride, His church.
If you avoid the clear statement of Scripture you lose any credence in my eyes that you ever had. You might play with the English, you can't play with the Greek. Oh of course I forgot. Futurism depends on constantly twisting the Greek. That's one reason I gave it up. In the end honesty prevailed.
P
This might be a good place to start:
[h=2]Jewish Family History Resources[/h]
Keep in mind that Israel was an exclusive people, and there is no reason to think that ended after the First Century.
My own origins have been traced back millennia, and this by a people not so fervent about heritage as I perceive Scripture attributing to Israel.
Paul was proud to be of the Tribe of Benjamin, though I myself might not want to volunteer that information if I were, lol. One whose lineage traced back to the tribe of David, though, might find that a distinct honor and something worth mentioning to the kids, lol.
God bless.
[h=2]Jewish Family History Resources[/h]
- JewishGen - JewishGen is a free genealogy website that features thousands of useful databases and research tools that help individuals with Jewish ancestry to locate family members and perform their own genealogical searches. Other links on this website include a help center, press room and success stories.
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- Gross-Steinberg Family Tree - The Gross-Steinberg Family Tree website is a Jewish genealogy website that provides information for Philadelphia and New York City. This website also features beginner's genealogy tips file, a page with many useful links and a lists page for genealogy records sites.
- The Susser Archive - The Jewish Communities and Records, the Susser Archives, consists of documents and papers that relate to the late Rabbi Dr. Bernard Susser, the historian of the Jews of South West England. The original data has been extracted and published for the public good.
- HaReshima - The Jewish Internet Portal features a number of links to other sites, including information on Congregations, Business, Culture, Entertainment, Medical, Organizations, Kosher, Women and Regional Information, among others, as they relate to Jewish history and genealogical efforts.
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- Jewish Web Index - The Jewish Web Index is a website designed for genealogists who want to research their family's Jewish genealogy. This website includes many useful tips for first-time genealogists, as well as a number of resources for understanding historical events and how they affected generations of one's family.
- Shamash - Shamash, the Jewish Network, features a number of useful links, including Shamash's Jewish link database, Jewish resources on the Internet, the 50-Year Yahrzeit calendar, Frequently Asked Questions about Judaism and Books of the Month.
- Links to Shtetls - JewishGen's Shtet Links is a project that is designed to commemorate where Jews have lived. This site features individual web pages that include information, pictures, databases and links to sites that provide additional information on a number of locations.
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- Shtetls in Belarus and Lithuania - The Eliat Gordin home page is a website that details family portraits in the Vilna region. Individuals can search for more information on their ancestors by surname. There is also a useful map that can help individuals searching for genealogy records.
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- JewishGen Discussion Group - JewishGen's Discussion Group web page serves as a forum that is designed to unite Jewish genealogical researchers from all over the world. The purpose of the site is to share information, ideas, methods, case studies and resources with one another.
- Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain - The Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain was created to promote and encourage the study of Jewish genealogy. The society assists people when tracing the history of their Jewish ancestors, and is also actively involved in indexing, transcribing and preserving old records.
- Netherlands Society for Jewish Genealogy - The Netherlands Society for Jewish Genealogy provides a wealth of information for those interested in researching Dutch Jews. With a forum, robust library, and listing of family trees, this is a helpful resources for those conducting genealogy research on Jews living in the Netherlands.
- Jewish Genealogical Society of Greater Boston - The Jewish Genealogical Society of Greater Boston is a nonprofit organization that is targeted at researchers and genealogists who are interested in Jewish history. There is a plethora of information on this website, including information on upcoming meetings, workshops, and seminars, as well research materials.
- Jewish Genealogical Society of Oregon - The Jewish Genealogical Society of Oregon is a website that provides a number of resource links, including membership, newsletters, blogs, family finders, Oregon Jewish history, the Ellis Island database and Oregon Jewish Burials databases.
- Dallas Jewish Historical Society - The Dallas Jewish Historical Society was created to preserve and protect written, visual and audible materials that relate to the Dallas Jewish community. The material kept by the society is free and available to the public and researchers.
- Jewish Genealogy Home Page - The Dallas Jewish Historical Society's Genealogy Interest Group features presentations for individuals who have an interest in Jewish genealogy. There are hundreds of indexed obituary files available from the 1940s to members of the group.
- Jewish Historical Society of Maryland - The Jewish Museum of Maryland features the largest, single collection of regional Jewish Americana in the United States. Collections include historical photographs, works of art, clothing, rare books, documents, oral histories, scholarly research and memorabilia.
- San Francisco Bay Area Jewish Genealogical Society - The San Francisco Bay Area Jewish Genealogical Society is a nonprofit organization that was created to develop, preserve, and distribute Jewish genealogical material and knowledge, and share those techniques with others who are interested in Jewish genealogy.
- Jewish Genealogical Society of St. Louis - The Jewish Genealogical Society of St. Louis is an organization that is committed to tracing back Jewish ancestors to Eastern Europe. For a small fee, individuals can join this society and share information with one another regarding Jewish genealogy.
- Columbus Jewish Historical Society - The Columbus Jewish Historical Society was created to preserve the stories, artifacts, images and heritage of the Jewish communities of Central Ohio. This society helps individuals interested in Jewish genealogy obtain information about their ancestors and their past.
- Jewish Genealogical Society of Montreal - The Jewish Genealogical Society of Montreal is a society that was created to promote awareness of Jewish ancestors. The members of this society share research techniques with other genealogists, and they also collect information and provide it to family historians and professional genealogists.
- Jewish Vital Records Research in Quebec - The Jewish Vital Records Research in Quebec website was created to provide documentation for Jewish vital and related records. The focus of the researchers is on Montreal, as it is home to the largest population of Jewish in this province.
- Jewish Lida District - JewishGen's ShtetLinks includes a web page for the Lida District, which features a number of research studies, as well as links, including the history of the district, maps of the area, the towns in the district and searchable databases.
- Jewish Cambridge - The Minyan Tehillah organization meets twice a month for Shabbat morning services, and many holidays, including Shauvot, Sukkot, Purim, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. The goal of the organization is to create a spiritually uplifting prayer service that is grounded in Jewish law.
- Czestochowa-Radomsko Area Research Group - Provides access to one of the largest collections of archival Holocaust data on the web.
Keep in mind that Israel was an exclusive people, and there is no reason to think that ended after the First Century.
My own origins have been traced back millennia, and this by a people not so fervent about heritage as I perceive Scripture attributing to Israel.
Paul was proud to be of the Tribe of Benjamin, though I myself might not want to volunteer that information if I were, lol. One whose lineage traced back to the tribe of David, though, might find that a distinct honor and something worth mentioning to the kids, lol.
God bless.
P
The thread seems to be quite on topic, in my view.
The OP states...
...which suggests that he can be a "Jew" which I don't have a problem with if he states it in a context of being a Jew inwardly through faith. That doesn't mean that we do not have the Nation of Israel to deal with as well, and in regards to that, the question is asked "Which Tribe are you a member of?"
Someone asks "How can Israel be cut off from herself," and that too is an on topic question, because the thought that the Tree of Romans 11 is Israel is a popular misconception. Romans 11 speaks of the Tree as the provision of God, which was not being a member of Israel, but the very provision of God in regards to relationship to Himself.
This same imagery is drawn in regards to the Vine:
Psalm 80:8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
For the Jew, particularly the Old Testament Jew who was not privy to that revealed to us in the New Testament, the Nation of Israel was the very "rest" God promised.
Christ makes a bold statement to His disciples here...
John 15
King James Version (KJV)
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
This statement would not have had the mystery it holds for modern readers not familiar with the History of Israel and the promises of God. The disciples would have understood this in a context of God's provision which equated to giving them rest in their own land and providing for them not just needs for prosperous life, but with means for relationship with God.
Israel stands out from all other peoples in the Old Testament, and their relationship with God was unique. Christ acknowledges the Vine, but states He is the True Vine, and His command is that the disciples abide in Him.
In view is relationship with God through Christ.
Now we look back at the cutting out of natural branches, which shows the relationship of Israel with the provision of God, and we balance that with Jews and Greeks (Gentiles) being made one, and we cannot possibly arrive at a conclusion that Gentiles are being grafted into Israel, but into the True Provision of God for relationship to Himself, and all that entails.
Israel received manna, we (both Jew and Gentile) receive the True Bread.
Israel received a land, but we are still strangers and pilgrims in this world.
Israel received rest, we receive The Rest of God.
In view is the distinction between physical/temporal and spiritual/eternal.
Every Jew prior to the creation of the Church could say they were of Israel, and that would have been correct. They can still say they are of Israel today, yet they are, if they are still leaning on that physical relationship, blind to the Israel of God, which has always existed and was itself comprised of both believing Jews and Gentiles. But we cannot change the fact that it was not until Christ began building His Church that the two were made one.
Gentiles were aliens to that commonwealth (Physical Israel), now natural Jews are (Spiritual Israel).
And at the heart of it all is the Redemptive Plan of God, progressively revealed through the Ages, consistent throughout all Ages, but not equally effected through all Ages.
We don't say that being of that Vine meant that they were in fact true believers, and spiritually children of Abraham. But we can say that all that are part of the True Vine are spiritually children of Abraham, despite whether they are Jew or Gentile.
God bless.
The OP states...
...which suggests that he can be a "Jew" which I don't have a problem with if he states it in a context of being a Jew inwardly through faith. That doesn't mean that we do not have the Nation of Israel to deal with as well, and in regards to that, the question is asked "Which Tribe are you a member of?"
Someone asks "How can Israel be cut off from herself," and that too is an on topic question, because the thought that the Tree of Romans 11 is Israel is a popular misconception. Romans 11 speaks of the Tree as the provision of God, which was not being a member of Israel, but the very provision of God in regards to relationship to Himself.
This same imagery is drawn in regards to the Vine:
Psalm 80:8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
For the Jew, particularly the Old Testament Jew who was not privy to that revealed to us in the New Testament, the Nation of Israel was the very "rest" God promised.
Christ makes a bold statement to His disciples here...
John 15
King James Version (KJV)
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
This statement would not have had the mystery it holds for modern readers not familiar with the History of Israel and the promises of God. The disciples would have understood this in a context of God's provision which equated to giving them rest in their own land and providing for them not just needs for prosperous life, but with means for relationship with God.
Israel stands out from all other peoples in the Old Testament, and their relationship with God was unique. Christ acknowledges the Vine, but states He is the True Vine, and His command is that the disciples abide in Him.
In view is relationship with God through Christ.
Now we look back at the cutting out of natural branches, which shows the relationship of Israel with the provision of God, and we balance that with Jews and Greeks (Gentiles) being made one, and we cannot possibly arrive at a conclusion that Gentiles are being grafted into Israel, but into the True Provision of God for relationship to Himself, and all that entails.
Israel received manna, we (both Jew and Gentile) receive the True Bread.
Israel received a land, but we are still strangers and pilgrims in this world.
Israel received rest, we receive The Rest of God.
In view is the distinction between physical/temporal and spiritual/eternal.
Every Jew prior to the creation of the Church could say they were of Israel, and that would have been correct. They can still say they are of Israel today, yet they are, if they are still leaning on that physical relationship, blind to the Israel of God, which has always existed and was itself comprised of both believing Jews and Gentiles. But we cannot change the fact that it was not until Christ began building His Church that the two were made one.
Gentiles were aliens to that commonwealth (Physical Israel), now natural Jews are (Spiritual Israel).
And at the heart of it all is the Redemptive Plan of God, progressively revealed through the Ages, consistent throughout all Ages, but not equally effected through all Ages.
We don't say that being of that Vine meant that they were in fact true believers, and spiritually children of Abraham. But we can say that all that are part of the True Vine are spiritually children of Abraham, despite whether they are Jew or Gentile.
God bless.
Last edited by a moderator:
That's so ridiculous it made me LOL. No one alive today knows who they descend from, or what tribe they are of. If anyone tells you they know, they are simply lying. The temple genealogy records were destroyed during the Roman overthrow, and those would have been the most authoritative. Anything else is just tradition. The Samaritans to this day think they are descended from Ephraim, but it's just a tradition. If you repeat a lie often enough, many people will believe it.
P
That is the mythology. Go speak to people who are actually Jews.
What you are suggesting is that without the records of the First Century, all Jews simply wandered off into oblivion and forgot who they were.
The question is...what do you base that on?
So I addressed your question, now answer mine: what do you base your view on?
Provide the basis for that belief and let's examine if your position is one that has merit.
In regards to Samaritans, we know who they descend from, the intermingling of Jews with the people that were brought into Israel after they were fell under their enemies. It was typical in those days to export captives and import their own people, and this is why the Samaritans were despised, because they were not supposed to go in unto the Gentiles.
And I agree, repeating lies often enough will gather a following, and we can usually see an agenda behind those mythologies. As I said, the Ten Lost Tribes Mythology" is one rooted in racism, and it is not surprising why racists would (1) hate Jews to begin with and (2) create mythology to garner supporters of their own agendas.
So present the basis for your belief and post a legitimate resource that supports your enthusiastic belief that there are no Jews in Israel.
Have to get going so will check back in when I can.
God bless.
What you are suggesting is that without the records of the First Century, all Jews simply wandered off into oblivion and forgot who they were.
The question is...what do you base that on?
So I addressed your question, now answer mine: what do you base your view on?
Provide the basis for that belief and let's examine if your position is one that has merit.
In regards to Samaritans, we know who they descend from, the intermingling of Jews with the people that were brought into Israel after they were fell under their enemies. It was typical in those days to export captives and import their own people, and this is why the Samaritans were despised, because they were not supposed to go in unto the Gentiles.
And I agree, repeating lies often enough will gather a following, and we can usually see an agenda behind those mythologies. As I said, the Ten Lost Tribes Mythology" is one rooted in racism, and it is not surprising why racists would (1) hate Jews to begin with and (2) create mythology to garner supporters of their own agendas.
So present the basis for your belief and post a legitimate resource that supports your enthusiastic belief that there are no Jews in Israel.
Have to get going so will check back in when I can.
God bless.
I just got that.
Thats funny, He think he can make up whatever tribe he wants to be...
And then they want us to think they know what they are talking about. and want to listen to them on this subject matter
Thats funny, He think he can make up whatever tribe he wants to be...
And then they want us to think they know what they are talking about. and want to listen to them on this subject matter