It's the thought that counts?

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DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#1
Biblically speaking, is the act of obedience truly necessary or is the intent to obey sufficient? I ask this question because of the many excuses that are thrown up as reasons why the act of baptism itself cannot be necessary for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Are excuses such as:

a. Too weak to leave bed
b. In desert
c. Water too cold
d. Dies on way to be baptized
e. Astronaut in space
f. Afraid of water (aquaphobia)
g. Just got hair done
h. thinking its a work of merit

legitimate reasons against baptism being the point of the forgiveness of sins?


 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,283
116
63
#2
I think there is a difference between being "against baptism" and believing that it isn't absolutely necessary to ensure forgiveness of sins.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
12,183
798
113
#3
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Here is water baptism. You cannot show from Acts 2:38 that the Holy Spirit is teaching water baptism. Sound doctrine would be that Acts 2:38 is Holy Spirit baptism and not water.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,057
314
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#4
If Jesus could say to a woman that her sins are forgiven, go and sin no more, and water baptism didn't occur at this moment, would you concede that forgiveness of sin is not dependent upon being baptized in water? If we have at any moment in time the forgiveness of sin occurring without water baptism it verifies its uselessness in granting it.

Water baptism itself is not useless, but it does not grant the forgiveness of sin. We do not need excuses to avoid water baptism for the sake of forgiveness, we have forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
1,133
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#5
My son is in prison , not baptized with water , but saved by our LORD Jesus Christ...He has many more years to do , God forbid he should die in his sleep tonight in his cell , would not being baptized mean he won`t be going to heaven , I think not...xox...
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#6
I think there is a difference between being "against baptism" and believing that it isn't absolutely necessary to ensure forgiveness of sins.
Okay.....but what about the question.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#7
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Here is water baptism. You cannot show from Acts 2:38 that the Holy Spirit is teaching water baptism. Sound doctrine would be that Acts 2:38 is Holy Spirit baptism and not water.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Sound doctrine would be that Acts 2:38 is Holy Spirit baptism and not water.
So you believe Peter is commanding those cut to the heart to be Holy Spirit baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Bless your heart.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
12,183
798
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#8
So you believe Peter is commanding those cut to the heart to be Holy Spirit baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Bless your heart.
Salvation is a gift. The Holy Spirit is a gift. We first hear then we receive.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#9
If Jesus could say to a woman that her sins are forgiven, go and sin no more, and water baptism didn't occur at this moment, would you concede that forgiveness of sin is not dependent upon being baptized in water? If we have at any moment in time the forgiveness of sin occurring without water baptism it verifies its uselessness in granting it.

Water baptism itself is not useless, but it does not grant the forgiveness of sin. We do not need excuses to avoid water baptism for the sake of forgiveness, we have forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ.
Yes, Jesus Christ can and has forgiven sins without the need for baptism. Jesus also forgave people without believing that He rose from the dead (thief on the cross). Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery without faith in Him.

If we have at any moment in time the forgiveness of sin occurring without water baptism it verifies its uselessness in granting
If you truly believe this than even faith in Jesus is not necessary for the forgiveness of sins. If you are pushing universalism this thread is not the place.

God is sovereign. He can and has granted salvation to many regardless of their circumstances. God can forgive the sins of Lucifer if He so wished. But this reality does not negate or prove a loophole exist to the command for baptism for the remission of sins.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,283
116
63
#10
Okay.....but what about the question.
Of course it isn't necessary. I would advise new believers to be baptised. I was baptised. But accepting Jesus' offer of forgiveness is enough. Nothing else needs to be added on to that to ensure salvation.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#11
Salvation is a gift. The Holy Spirit is a gift. We first hear then we receive.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
My point still stands. You believe that Peter was commanding those who were cut to the heart to be Holy Spirit baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Again, bless your heart.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,057
314
83
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#12
Yes, Jesus Christ can and has forgiven sins without the need for baptism. Jesus also forgave people without believing that He rose from the dead (thief on the cross). Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery without faith in Him.

If you truly believe this than even faith in Jesus is not necessary for the forgiveness of sins. If you are pushing universalism this thread is not the place.

God is sovereign. He can and has granted salvation to many regardless of their circumstances. God can forgive the sins of Lucifer if He so wished. But this reality does not negate or prove a loophole exist to the command for baptism for the remission of sins.
Baptism doesn't grant the remission of sin. Bloodshed does. The blood of the Lamb in our case.

Hebrews 9:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Water baptism doesn't save us, it doesn't grant forgiveness. This is found in Christ, by grace through faith.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#13
Of course it isn't necessary. I would advise new believers to be baptised. I was baptised. But accepting Jesus' offer of forgiveness is enough. Nothing else needs to be added on to that to ensure salvation.
So Peter was advising them to be baptized? Come on.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#14
Baptism doesn't grant the remission of sin. Bloodshed does. The blood of the Lamb in our case.

Hebrews 9:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Water baptism doesn't save us, it doesn't grant forgiveness. This is found in Christ, by grace through faith.
"Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven" vs.
Baptism doesn't grant the remission of sin.
You speak against the very words of God.

"which was a symbol pointing to baptism, which now saves you" vs.
Water baptism doesn't save us, it doesn't grant forgiveness.
You speak against the very words of God.

At best your words are an abstraction without an event. In other words turning a generality into a definitive.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#15
My son is in prison , not baptized with water , but saved by our LORD Jesus Christ...He has many more years to do , God forbid he should die in his sleep tonight in his cell , would not being baptized mean he won`t be going to heaven , I think not...xox...
Your belief in your son' state of salvation has no bearing on the word of God. Your son's circumstance does not negate what is written. Many people are baptized in prison, look it up.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,527
1,528
113
#16
I think there is a difference between being "against baptism" and believing that it isn't absolutely necessary to ensure forgiveness of sins.
AMEN....he that BELIEVES on the SON is not condemned.........

and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,527
1,528
113
#17
WHEN I see the BLOOD (not water) I WILL PASS OVER YOU............
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,527
1,528
113
#18
David was not immersed and yet his sins were forgiven......

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
6,255
235
63
#19
Biblically speaking, is the act of obedience truly necessary or is the intent to obey sufficient? I ask this question because of the many excuses that are thrown up as reasons why the act of baptism itself cannot be necessary for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Are excuses such as:

a. Too weak to leave bed
b. In desert
c. Water too cold
d. Dies on way to be baptized
e. Astronaut in space
f. Afraid of water (aquaphobia)
g. Just got hair done
h. thinking its a work of merit

legitimate reasons against baptism being the point of the forgiveness of sins?


Its a ceremonial law used in ceremonies when like minded join together, as a shadow it points to the unseen eternal.(not a excuse)

It is not a moral law that governs the morals of the whole world. Shadows used in parable are not the true substance the baptism of the Holy Spirit not seen. it is required when a new person has a desire to become one of the members of the kingdom of priest (all believers qualify.)

Its what the discussion was about in John 3:25 and old testament ceremonial law .The Son of man as a outward demonstration from the tribe Judah being baptized by one from the tribe of levi (John) so that he too could be a fornicator and baptize others

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.(baptism) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, baptizeth, and all men come to him.Joh 3:26

The foundation for baptism is found below.

Exodus 29:4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.


Because it is ceremonial law used as a shadow when Aarons two sons desired to become part of the kingdom of Priest they attempted to make a oral tradition change . God left the priestly garment with out the sent of smoke, the bodies became ashes to show the ceremonial law was not effective as a mere shadow. . .

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp.So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said.Lev 10:1-5


Ceremonial laws like baptism never become the substance. Today the same law goes out every time a person has a desire to become a member of the kingdom of priests, in order to bring the gospel into the world... like the Kingly Noble Beareans. They searched the scriptures daily as to those kind of matters that had to do with the (H20) purifying ceremonies.
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
12,183
798
113
#20
My point still stands. You believe that Peter was commanding those who were cut to the heart to be Holy Spirit baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Again, bless your heart.
You do not have a point only a doctrinal error.

The Holy Spirit cut them to the heart that they would repent and receive Christ. This would give them the gift of the Holy Spirit in their heart.

You have yet to address Acts 8.

For the cause of Christ
Roger