Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

[charisenexcelcis]

Is there no grace when you are "hated" by God?

First, before Esau is born:
"Two nations are in your womb; and two peoples shall be separated from your body; and one people shall be stronger than the other; and the older shall serve the younger."
In the midst of this we find that Esau is promised a nation.

Then, at the blessing:
"Behold, away from the fertility of the earth shall be your dwelling, and away from the dew of heaven from above. And by your sword you shall live and your brother you shall serve; but it shall come about when you become reckless, that you shall break his yoke from your neck."
Again, in the midst comes a promise of eventual freedom.

When Edom refuses to allow Israel to go through their land (Numbers 20:14-21), Edom is not destroyed by Israel or by God. This grace was not extended to Sihon (Numbers 21:21-24). The title that God gave Edom for Mt. Seir was a covenant (Deut. 2:4-6)

Finally, there is this: "You shall not detest and Edomite, for he is your brother." Deuteronomy 23:7.

So, now we come to Malachi, Edom is still in rebellion and is receiveing jusdgenment, but the emphasis of the passage is more on God's favor toward Israel, and Israel's abuse of that. If God judged edom, who was never favored by god, how can Israel harden their hearts and not expect to be judged? This is the same sense we have in Romans.

What do you think?

 

[Glowing]

One thing I learned about this is that GOD hated Essau because whenever he was in times of distress,need want or advice; he would Always go to his Father Issiac for help.
Jacob on the other hand always consulted OUR Heavenly Father!
Moral of the story; God hated Essua because he only cared about fleshly things and his Heritage in the flesh.
Jacob cared about his Heavenly Heritage; The Heritage of OUR Minds.

 

[superdave5221]

One thing I learned about this is that GOD hated Essau because whenever he was in times of distress,need want or advice; he would Always go to his Father Issiac for help.
Jacob on the other hand always consulted OUR Heavenly Father!
Moral of the story; God hated Essua because he only cared about fleshly things and his Heritage in the flesh.
Jacob cared about his Heavenly Heritage; The Heritage of OUR Minds.

Jacob was also selected by God to be in the "seed line", hinted at when God told Eve that her seed (Christ) would bruise the head of the serpent, and promised to Abraham that his seed would bless the nations (Gentiles).

It must be noted that "hate" here is represented as it is used in Luke 14:26:

Luke 14: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

It thus means "less favored", not that God actually hated Esau as in the usage of 1 John 3:14-15:

1 John 3: 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

In this case, "hate" means animosity. We must consider exegetical context when considering scriptural meaning.

 

[Sharp]

Jacob was also selected by God to be in the "seed line", hinted at when God told Eve that her seed (Christ) would bruise the head of the serpent, and promised to Abraham that his seed would bless the nations (Gentiles).

It must be noted that "hate" here is represented as it is used in Luke 14:26:

Luke 14: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

It thus means "less favored", not that God actually hated Esau as in the usage of 1 John 3:14-15:

1 John 3: 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

In this case, "hate" means animosity. We must consider exegetical context when considering scriptural meaning.

I think that's pretty soft actually. I can't see anything in the passage to suggest that hate doesn't really mean hate, whreas in the passage you posted its pretty obvious.

People like Esau and Pharaoh rightly incurred God's wrath, for they first rejected God. Esau intended to kill Jacob, which suggests he was living as an unrepentant sinner.

 

[Quan]

This convo can go deeper!...This very subject is something a lot of ppl don't know of...I'm not saying the story line or the concept of what occurred but the actual GENETICS and the ethnicity of who these ppl were. I found it to be very interesting!

 

[Glowing]

I think this is a perfect example of why people need to check things out for themselves. The word hate in this Sctipture is definitely Less favoured or Love less. This is only one of many places you can get the wrong message from, if you don't check it out in the original language.
You will find 4 basic groups of people that exsist in all races.

 

[loveschild]

God even has mercy on demons. When the demons begged God not to send them to hell and he sent them into the pigs. I guess its cause we aren't at the finall battle.

 

[Sharp]

I think this is a perfect example of why people need to check things out for themselves. The word hate in this Sctipture is definitely Less favoured or Love less. This is only one of many places you can get the wrong message from, if you don't check it out in the original language.
You will find 4 basic groups of people that exsist in all races.

Why don't any versions of the bible translate it "Esau I have loved less or favoured less". None that I'm aware of anyway - I could be wrong. I just don't see a need to view the word hate the same as it is meant in Luke. Why is it so objectionable to think that God hates those who spend their whole lives hating Him?

 

[Glowing]

Sorry but I cannot resist replying on this one; FORGIVENESS is the name of the Business;(Christianaty)NOT and FORGETFULNESS!
You may get fooled by someone Once(shame on them)But Never let them do it to you twice or shame on YOU! It VERY Important TO NOT FORGET that Jacob & Essau were Twin Brothers of the Same Seed-Line Issaic; And that although Essau wanted to kill Jabocb, this never happened and there was a Great Re-Union between them; with if you ask in my Opinoin Jacob really overdueing the Humbling! (but then again do we not do the same thing amoungst Ourselves in OUR own Blood Families)?
There is usually not much Differance between One type of people and the other, The people of Essau's type generally work hard and try to do what's right,However they have a difficult time seeing beyond the flesh and have a Difficultey's at Funerals, pretty much beleiving that the person is actually dead!...Jacob's type know that OUR FATHER IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING AND NOT THE Dead and that NOBODY BUT HIM has the ability to eliminate a thought Conciousness; And that HE would NEVER DO such a thing until ALL of HIS CHILDREN Clearly Understand WHY?
Now there is a HATE to have,and that is for the Children of Cain who do the Devil's Work; Pre-Meditated Murders & Rape, For these two Acts THE FATHER of LIFE Demands Capital Punishment,(mainly so that it ceases from happening!)There's No Problem finding someone to do it either,Just ask Either a Jacob or Essau type person(one who try to do what's right) Next of Kin; What they for real want to do to that person who Raped or Murdered one of Their Loved one's!... Just trying to help us understand OUR FATHER a little better,No offense meant; Love to ALL in CHRIST Forever!!!

 

[superdave5221]

Why don't any versions of the bible translate it "Esau I have loved less or favoured less". None that I'm aware of anyway - I could be wrong. I just don't see a need to view the word hate the same as it is meant in Luke. Why is it so objectionable to think that God hates those who spend their whole lives hating Him?

The reason that it is not translated that way in most bibles is because most translators attempt to translate literally whenever possible. It is up to us to use our God given brains and common sense to look at the context and determine what is meant. If anyone thinks that God hated Esau for his sins, in the same way that man hates those who transgress against other men, then there really is no hope for any of us. Anyone who thinks that they are better than Esau, and thus worthy of God's love more than Esau, than you should be praying for humility. And if anyone thinks that God hates all men, because of sin, then you really don't understand God's redemption plan at all.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

The reason that it is not translated that way in most bibles is because most translators attempt to translate literally whenever possible. It is up to us to use our God given brains and common sense to look at the context and determine what is meant. If anyone thinks that God hated Esau for his sins, in the same way that man hates those who transgress against other men, then there really is no hope for any of us. Anyone who thinks that they are better than Esau, and thus worthy of God's love more than Esau, than you should be praying for humility. And if anyone thinks that God hates all men, because of sin, then you really don't understand God's redemption plan at all.

Either way, the point of the passage is that whatever God felt towards Jacob, it was opposed to or contrasted with what God felt towards Esau.

So if God loving Jacob means he loved Jacob, then it seems that God hated Esau means he did not love Esau (or you could just say hated).

I don't think this leaves us without hope. After all, Jacob wasn't any better than Esau. God's love isn't conditional.

 

[superdave5221]

Either way, the point of the passage is that whatever God felt towards Jacob, it was opposed to or contrasted with what God felt towards Esau.

So if God loving Jacob means he loved Jacob, then it seems that God hated Esau means he did not love Esau (or you could just say hated).

I don't think this leaves us without hope. After all, Jacob wasn't any better than Esau. God's love isn't conditional.

If you have two sons, and one of them is sitting in the principals office, (having also disobeyed you as well), and the other one is at the same time being inducted into the honor society, you may have a contrast in feelings at that moment, but I would sure hope that as a parent, you would not hate the one, and love the other. You love them both equally, but at that moment, you will express more love for the one who is obedient, than for the one who is disobedient. Thus you will favor one more than the other.

 

[Kadath]

Well, I haven't been struck by lightning yet. That must mean something...

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

If you have two sons, and one of them is sitting in the principals office, (having also disobeyed you as well), and the other one is at the same time being inducted into the honor society, you may have a contrast in feelings at that moment, but I would sure hope that as a parent, you would not hate the one, and love the other. You love them both equally, but at that moment, you will express more love for the one who is obedient, than for the one who is disobedient. Thus you will favor one more than the other.

I'm not sure casting God as a father in this instance is appropriate. The term seems to be reserved for God's special covenant people.

Jeremiah 3:19: “‘I said, How I would set you among my sons, and give you a pleasant land, a heritage most beautiful of all nations. And I thought you would call me, My Father, and would not turn from following me”

Malachi 2:10 “Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?”

2 Corinthians 6:18 “and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”​

The concept of creation clearly ties to their creation as a national-ethnic entity, related to the promise of the covenant and not to creation in general of humanity.

In the NT, this "Fathership" of God is contrasted with the "Fathership" of the Devil for unbelievers:

“You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires...” (John 8:44)

Besides this, there seems to be more going on in the passage than simply that God's affections for Esau are circumstantially negative.

Like I said, the entire point of the text is to prove to Israel that God loves them. He does this by *contrasting* his relationship with Jacob to his relationship with Esau. But if God loves Esau just as much as Jacob then his comparison doesn't really prove anything does it? Whatever affectional state God has towards Jacob, it is diametically opposed to the one he has towards Esau.

I don't buy the idea that God must love everyone in the exact same way to the exact same degree. Shawn Floyd has an interesting article in the current edition of Philosophia Christi that argues for what he calls "preferential divine love" (that's also the main title of the article). You might want to check it out.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Consider that the passage is not about Jacob and Esau, but about Edom and Israel. Look at the Malachi passage and the Romans passage. Are we interpreting the story of Jacob and Esau by the story of the nations of Israel and Edom?

 

[Sharp]

The reason that it is not translated that way in most bibles is because most translators attempt to translate literally whenever possible. It is up to us to use our God given brains and common sense to look at the context and determine what is meant. If anyone thinks that God hated Esau for his sins, in the same way that man hates those who transgress against other men, then there really is no hope for any of us. Anyone who thinks that they are better than Esau, and thus worthy of God's love more than Esau, than you should be praying for humility. And if anyone thinks that God hates all men, because of sin, then you really don't understand God's redemption plan at all.

If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed!!!

1 Corinthians 16:22.

 

[VW]

Is there no grace when you are "hated" by God?

First, before Esau is born:
"Two nations are in your womb; and two peoples shall be separated from your body; and one people shall be stronger than the other; and the older shall serve the younger."
In the midst of this we find that Esau is promised a nation.

Then, at the blessing:
"Behold, away from the fertility of the earth shall be your dwelling, and away from the dew of heaven from above. And by your sword you shall live and your brother you shall serve; but it shall come about when you become reckless, that you shall break his yoke from your neck."
Again, in the midst comes a promise of eventual freedom.

When Edom refuses to allow Israel to go through their land (Numbers 20:14-21), Edom is not destroyed by Israel or by God. This grace was not extended to Sihon (Numbers 21:21-24). The title that God gave Edom for Mt. Seir was a covenant (Deut. 2:4-6)

Finally, there is this: "You shall not detest and Edomite, for he is your brother." Deuteronomy 23:7.

So, now we come to Malachi, Edom is still in rebellion and is receiveing jusdgenment, but the emphasis of the passage is more on God's favor toward Israel, and Israel's abuse of that. If God judged edom, who was never favored by god, how can Israel harden their hearts and not expect to be judged? This is the same sense we have in Romans.

What do you think?

Israel often played the harlot with God. Much of the prophets is taken up with recounting her sins. God chose her above all of the other peoples, and she has never listened to Him, has always had a stiff neck and a hard heart towards Him. Edom was never chosen of God, and yet treated Him better than the chosen one.

But it is God's choice, not ours. God chose whom He would to choose. He makes from the same lump two different things, and the lump complains about what He does.

Has God found a faithful people yet? A people who love Him, who serve Him as He deserves?

In Christ.............only in Christ.

 

[DinoDillinger]

There is a real sense of love that God has for everyone. Look at Matthew 5. It's basically a list of ways we are to display God's character to those who might be described as hated by God. Even the pharasees recieved their reward in full.

 

[DinoDillinger]

Israel often played the harlot with God. Much of the prophets is taken up with recounting her sins. God chose her above all of the other peoples, and she has never listened to Him, has always had a stiff neck and a hard heart towards Him. Edom was never chosen of God, and yet treated Him better than the chosen one.

But it is God's choice, not ours. God chose whom He would to choose. He makes from the same lump two different things, and the lump complains about what He does.

Has God found a faithful people yet? A people who love Him, who serve Him as He deserves?

In Christ.............only in Christ.

I think maybe the point is that it is only God who is faithful.

 

[superdave5221]

If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed!!!

1 Corinthians 16:22.

I'm sure glad that God didn't curse the Apostle Paul when, through his hatred for the Lord, he gave his authority to stone Stephen.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ commanded us to love those who hate us. Are we asked to be better than God? Does not Jesus love those who hate Him? Are we to tell those we evangelize that if they don't love God, that God will hate them? How is that different from the world?

Your one liner has nothing to do with love, but God's judgement. Surely you must know that Paul is speaking eschatologically. God is just, and must judge accordingly. But He loves us just the same!

Please try to see the big picture, and exegetical context when posting one liners like this.