James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

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John146

Senior Member
#41
Jan 13, 2016
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#41
eternally-gratefull said:
He never said they do

he asked each individual to test their own faith, If YOU claim to have faith, but have no works, IS YOUR FAITH alive or dead.

James is about individuate people testing their faith.

it is not about me looking at you and trying to determine if your faith is real
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Can you give us some works that will justify one to be a true believer? There are lots of lost people who have more good works than true believers.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#42
#42
John146 said:
Can you give us some works that will justify one to be a true believer? There are lots of lost people who have more good works than true believers.
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Did you read a thing I said?

OF course I can not give you a work, but then I do not have to, I already said James was not written for me to tell if you have faith or not.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#43
Jan 13, 2016
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#43
Enow said:
There is only one gospel and all the teachings applies to Jews & Gentiles alike in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:[SUP]9 [/SUP]God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.[SUP] 10 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

So regardless of being addressed to christians from having been converted from Judaism of the 12 tribes of Israel, and thus scattered everywhere, those words in James also applies to the Gentile believers as well. There is no way they cannot be applied to us.

Just as the epistles to the Romans applies to Jews and Gentiles believers in Jesus Christ.

Just because Paul was to the heathen as Peter was to the Jews in ministry outreach, that does not mean they preach a different gospel nor does it mean they teach different things for believers in Christ to follow.
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Remember, there is only one true gospel that brings salvation to man and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ, His death, burial and resurrection for sin. Gospel simply means "good news."

There is no Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ. Twelve tribes never refer to Gentiles nor any called out group of that nation. Jame is a Jewish epistle with the nation of Israel in mind. When will the nation of Israel be scattered abroad? During the tribulation, when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Hebrews and James will be important epistles for the nation of Israel to see their need for Jesus. They were cut off the first time around and now they will be grafted back in.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#44
Jan 13, 2016
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#44
eternally-gratefull said:
Did you read a thing I said?

OF course I can not give you a work, but then I do not have to, I already said James was not written for me to tell if you have faith or not.
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In James 2, who was Abraham justified before? Himself? God? Isaac?

In this dispensation, believers are never commanded to justify themselves before men. Our justification comes from the faith of Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. The believer's work does not justify.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#45
#45
John146 said:
Don't add to Scripture. The question is "can faith save him?"
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Who is him? Is it not the people he spoke to? Did he not ask them to show him their faith apart from works, and he would prove his faith by his work

did he not ask them if you believe, you do well, even demons believe

is he not trying to get them to examine themselves?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#46
#46
John146 said:
In James 2, who was Abraham justified before? Himself? God? Isaac?

In this dispensation, believers are never commanded to justify themselves before men. Our justification comes from the faith of Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. The believer's work does not justify.
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abraham was declairf righteous before he did one work,

end of story

James is not telling anyone to justify themselves before men, that's ridiculous. He is telling people to test their faith

That's right I forgot you believe in dual covenant theology.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#47
Jan 13, 2016
16,617
3,530
113
#47
eternally-gratefull said:
Who is him? Is it not the people he spoke to? Did he not ask them to show him their faith apart from works, and he would prove his faith by his work

did he not ask them if you believe, you do well, even demons believe

is he not trying to get them to examine themselves?
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18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Sounds like the man is trying to justify his faith to others by his works. Notice James uses the word my faith and my works. Paul says we're justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. Our faith does not justify. This is a whole different time period James is addressing.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#48
Jan 13, 2016
16,617
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#48
eternally-gratefull said:
abraham was declairf righteous before he did one work,

end of story

James is not telling anyone to justify themselves before men, that's ridiculous. He is telling people to test their faith

That's right I forgot you believe in dual covenant theology.
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Although Abraham was declared righteous back in chapter 15, it was not fulfilled until he proved his obedience.

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Dual covenant?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#49
#49
John146 said:
Although Abraham was declared righteous back in chapter 15, it was not fulfilled until he proved his obedience.

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Dual covenant?
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God did not make a mistake in declaiming Abraham justice, he was perfected the moment god said it based on his faith, why do you think he needed a work to prove it.

dual covenant, that they were saved different than we are, or am I mistaking you believed that and have you confused with someone else lol
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#51
#51
John146 said:
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Sounds like the man is trying to justify his faith to others by his works. Notice James uses the word my faith and my works. Paul says we're justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. Our faith does not justify. This is a whole different time period James is addressing.
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how can that be when the context is people who do not have any works, but declaim they have faith.

how can I justify my faith if I have no work.

could Noah be real if he declaired he had faith that God was going to flood the earth, yet did not build the ark? Or would his faith have been dead?

Thus, what saved him his faith or his work?

To me he was saved the moment he trusted God, his work proved his faith was real
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#52
Jan 13, 2016
16,617
3,530
113
#52
eternally-gratefull said:
how can that be when the context is people who do not have any works, but declaim they have faith.

how can I justify my faith if I have no work.

could Noah be real if he declaired he had faith that God was going to flood the earth, yet did not build the ark? Or would his faith have been dead?

Thus, what saved him his faith or his work?

To me he was saved the moment he trusted God, his work proved his faith was real
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The word "saved" does not always mean eternal salvation of the soul. Many times it simply means delivered from something and in this case, I believe James is teaching tribulation Jews how to be saved physically(See Matt. 24) and delivered into the Millennial Kingdom.

I believe in dispensations not dual covenants. The OT saints were not saved by simply believe God at His word, but through obedience to His word. They were kept "safe" in Abraham's bosom until being set free by Christ. When the new covenant was established through the death of the testator(Hebrews 9), all man has to do is believe the gospel of Jesus Christ for eternal salvation. No works required. I'm not spouting two ways to salvation. Eternal salvation only comes through the blood of Jesus Christ.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#53
Jan 13, 2016
16,617
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#53
eternally-gratefull said:


To me he was saved the moment he trusted God, his work proved his faith was real
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Prove his faith is real to whom? Himself? God? Others?

I can read and study the word, pray, go to church, be kind, give...none of these prove I'm a believer.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#54
#54
John146 said:
Prove his faith is real to whom? Himself? God? Others?

I can read and study the word, pray, go to church, be kind, give...none of these prove I'm a believer.
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To anyone who would question his faith. Maybe even Abraham when Satan tried to tear him down.

I already said God knew his faith was real and did not need proof.

And no, none of them prove anything,
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#55
#55
John146 said:
The word "saved" does not always mean eternal salvation of the soul. Many times it simply means delivered from something and in this case, I believe James is teaching tribulation Jews how to be saved physically(See Matt. 24) and delivered into the Millennial Kingdom.

I believe in dispensations not dual covenants. The OT saints were not saved by simply believe God at His word, but through obedience to His word. They were kept "safe" in Abraham's bosom until being set free by Christ. When the new covenant was established through the death of the testator(Hebrews 9), all man has to do is believe the gospel of Jesus Christ for eternal salvation. No works required. I'm not spouting two ways to salvation. Eternal salvation only comes through the blood of Jesus Christ.
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Yes, you are dual covenant, thank you

i disagree with you, it Is not easier for me to be saved than Abraham, David or Daniel, they were saved like I was, by faith in God,

the only difference was I know what Gods answer was, they were not given that knowledge they just trust God would supply.

Tribulation people will be he same, and yes, they will know Jesus, in fact Israel will be saved by repenting and turning to Jesus, not by their works,
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#56
Jan 13, 2016
16,617
3,530
113
#56
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes, you are dual covenant, thank you

i disagree with you, it Is not easier for me to be saved than Abraham, David or Daniel, they were saved like I was, by faith in God,

the only difference was I know what Gods answer was, they were not given that knowledge they just trust God would supply.

Tribulation people will be he same, and yes, they will know Jesus, in fact Israel will be saved by repenting and turning to Jesus, not by their works,
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They trusted in God's promise of what?

We trust in the blood of Jesus Christ.

It sounds like you speaking dual covenants or whatever.

Do those tribulation saints have to keep from getting the mark?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#57
#57
John146 said:
They trusted in God's promise of what?

We trust in the blood of Jesus Christ.

It sounds like you speaking dual covenants or whatever.

Do those tribulation saints have to keep from getting the mark?
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Blood sacrifice started with adam, they knew what it meant.

I know the fulfilment, they just understood god was going to do something

no man can work hard enough to save himself OT or new.

Abraham was a sinner, so was David, Daniel told us himself he sinn d in dan 9.

works never saved one soul can not.

Jesus passed I'ver the sins of the men of old until the savior came we are told, the did not earn salvation by works
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#58
#58
You know it really is just that simple and yet people keep twisting it to justify their ill-conceived non biblical notions.

Thank you!

dcontroversal said:
There is no vs. as context sets it all straight....

Before God men are justified by FAITH void of works <--Paul in Romans

The above faith is SEEN by men based upon the works that follow <---James

The works do not save or keep saved, but at are the results of the faith and salvation one already possesses (Paul in Romans)
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J

John146

Senior Member
#59
Jan 13, 2016
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#59
eternally-gratefull said:
Blood sacrifice started with adam, they knew what it meant.

I know the fulfilment, they just understood god was going to do something

no man can work hard enough to save himself OT or new.

Abraham was a sinner, so was David, Daniel told us himself he sinn d in dan 9.

works never saved one soul can not.

Jesus passed I'ver the sins of the men of old until the savior came we are told, the did not earn salvation by works
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I'm in agreement.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#60
Jan 13, 2016
16,617
3,530
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#60
Let's go to James 5.

5 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Why is James so harsh to rich men? What's the context? Oh yeah, the last days.


8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Why is the judge standing before the door? We're talking the last days and He is ready to return to judge the nations at the end of the tribulation. Paul says that the Lord is seated at the right hand of the Father.


10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Why Job? Job is a type of tribulation saint who suffered. Job's end was blessed by God for enduring. Job's 42 chapters pictures the 42 months of great tribulation.
 
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