Jesus as Testator.

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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#1
#1
"For where a covenant is, there must be of necessity be the death of the testator (the one who made it). For a covenant is valid only when men have died, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives." Hebrews 9:16-17

Does that mean that in order for there to be a covenant between God and man, God must die? Does that mean that every covenant that God established was made valid by the death of Jesus on the cross?

What do you think?
 
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Saint

Guest
#2
#2
I'm not really sure what it means, but I don't think that it means that God died for every covenent, because the Bible doesn't mention God sacrificing Himself for His covenent with Abraham. I wish I could be of more help, though.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#3
#3
Saint said:
I'm not really sure what it means, but I don't think that it means that God died for every covenent, because the Bible doesn't mention God sacrificing Himself for His covenent with Abraham. I wish I could be of more help, though.
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At each covenant there was an animal sacrifice. What I am proposing is that each was a type of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
 
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Ricke

Guest
#4
#4
Jesus was The Testator of The New Covenant. There have Been three covenants since creation.
1. No Law between Creation and The Flood man did what he deemed right or wrong.

2. The Law. Between after the Flood until the Death at Calvary of Jesus. The law consisted of The Ten Commandments, Animal sacrifices for sin atonement, and God's Laws and Ordinances he gave to Moses.

3. The final Dispensation for mankind. Jesus comes here, teaches, and dies for all sins and is Testator of the New testament. This dispensation period started when Jesus died at Calvary and is still in effect.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#5
#5
Ricke said:
Jesus was The Testator of The New Covenant. There have Been three covenants since creation.
1. No Law between Creation and The Flood man did what he deemed right or wrong.

2. The Law. Between after the Flood until the Death at Calvary of Jesus. The law consisted of The Ten Commandments, Animal sacrifices for sin atonement, and God's Laws and Ordinances he gave to Moses.

3. The final Dispensation for mankind. Jesus comes here, teaches, and dies for all sins and is Testator of the New testament. This dispensation period started when Jesus died at Calvary and is still in effect.
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In Genesis 3, God sacrificed an animal and clothed man after the covenant of the Fall.
After the flood Noah sacrificed an animal and God made the covenant that He would not flood the earth again.
In Genesis 15, again we see the sacrifice made at the time of the covenant between God and Abraham.
These are just a few of the covenants that God made. I am proposing that the animal sacrifices that were made were only symbolic and not in themselves sufficient for the establishment of a covenant of God. I believe that they symbolized the sacrifice on the cross.

I am not a dispensationalist.
 
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Mulehide

Guest
#6
#6
charisenexcelcis said:
In Genesis 3, God sacrificed an animal and clothed man after the covenant of the Fall.
After the flood Noah sacrificed an animal and God made the covenant that He would not flood the earth again.
In Genesis 15, again we see the sacrifice made at the time of the covenant between God and Abraham.
These are just a few of the covenants that God made. I am proposing that the animal sacrifices that were made were only symbolic and not in themselves sufficient for the establishment of a covenant of God. I believe that they symbolized the sacrifice on the cross.

I am not a dispensationalist.
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Which would be why satan fought so hard to kill Jesus before the cross. If he had succeeded, then none of the previous animal sacrifices would have mattered. All the souls of man and eternity truly hung in the balance until Jesus' sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection (showing His sacrifince was accepted) had been completed. Without that, all of God's promises would have been of no effect.
 
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Mulehide

Guest
#7
#7
charisenexcelcis said:
In Genesis 3, God sacrificed an animal and clothed man after the covenant of the Fall.
After the flood Noah sacrificed an animal and God made the covenant that He would not flood the earth again.
In Genesis 15, again we see the sacrifice made at the time of the covenant between God and Abraham.
These are just a few of the covenants that God made. I am proposing that the animal sacrifices that were made were only symbolic and not in themselves sufficient for the establishment of a covenant of God. I believe that they symbolized the sacrifice on the cross.

I am not a dispensationalist.
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That also makes for an intersting study. We are grateful, and rightly so, that Jesus was willing to endure such horrible suffering and then give His life for us. But, there is SO much more. An amazing study is the different OT sacrifices and how they correlate to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice and what that then means for us today.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#8
#8
Mulehide said:
Which would be why satan fought so hard to kill Jesus before the cross. If he had succeeded, then none of the previous animal sacrifices would have mattered. All the souls of man and eternity truly hung in the balance until Jesus' sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection (showing His sacrifince was accepted) had been completed. Without that, all of God's promises would have been of no effect.
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It must be frustrating to be Satan. You lay these great plans and they always end the same way. God wins.
 
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Mulehide

Guest
#9
#9
charisenexcelcis said:
It must be frustrating to be Satan. You lay these great plans and they always end the same way. God wins.
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That would explain his hatred for all Christians. We have something he can never have...victory! I'm on the winning side!!!!!
 
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Ricke

Guest
#10
#10
David re-read what I said in the first dispensation, I said Man had no law and did WHAT HE SEEMED RIGHT. And you left out Cain And Abel and there sacrifices in Genesis 4. I just mentioned in the second dispensation everyone who were Jews had to sacrifice animals as a sin atonement. In the first dispenswhatever they ation Until The Flood they did what basically they wanted. And yes, God killed an Animal to clothe Adam And Eve, and I Agree it was a type and shadow of what was to Come.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#11
#11
Ricke said:
David re-read what I said in the first dispensation, I said Man had no law and did WHAT HE SEEMED RIGHT. And you left out Cain And Abel and there sacrifices in Genesis 4. I just mentioned in the second dispensation everyone who were Jews had to sacrifice animals as a sin atonement. In the first dispenswhatever they ation Until The Flood they did what basically they wanted. And yes, God killed an Animal to clothe Adam And Eve, and I Agree it was a type and shadow of what was to Come.
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Do you think that there was a covenant involved in Abel's sacrifice?
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#12
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#12
Hi Ricke,

charisenexcelcis is right, some see a covenant of works in the Garden, then you have the covenant with Noah, the Covenant of promise with Abraham, the Covenant of Law (Sinai) etc, As Charis said all these things look forward to Christ, as the ultimate perfect Sacrifice, death that satisfies Justice.

Blessings

Phil
 
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Ricke

Guest
#13
#13
David
There is no scripture to prove any covenant with Cain or Able.

I can certainly Beleive That God had instructed them to give an offering for God's own reason's . It is very obvious God was pleased with Abel's Offering and very displeased with Cain's offering. It was not a sin offering I don't beleive. It was like when we pay Tithes of 10% of your "increase".
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#14
#14
I think that the securing of the covenants of God is an oft neglected subject when we speak of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. There were sacrifices for many reasons and all of them were symbolic because the blood of an animal was never sufficient for any of those purposes. But while we commonly teach about the cross in view of those types, we rarely mention that the death of the testator was neccesary to secure the covenants that God made. Thus each time that God said,"I will do [insert promise here]'" that promise was secured by Jesus death on the cross.
 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
#15
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
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#15
charisenexcelcis said:
"For where a covenant is, there must be of necessity be the death of the testator (the one who made it). For a covenant is valid only when men have died, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives." Hebrews 9:16-17

Does that mean that in order for there to be a covenant between God and man, God must die? Does that mean that every covenant that God established was made valid by the death of Jesus on the cross?

What do you think?
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I’ve believed all long that the Lord’s death on the cross freed me from my sins, and that I need to obey the Lord. Perhaps these Scriptures help explain why that is true.
 
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paul1149

Guest
#16
#16
Charis, I agree with your premise. The covenant Jesus made with us is like a will, and we have from it inherited eternal life. It its most happy ending, however, he rose from death and gets to enjoy it with us. : )

All the kindness God extended to man down through history after the Fall was ultimately given legal undergirding by the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus. All the common grace, all the covenants, foreshadowed the fullness of the perfect covenant that He would establish.

satan thought he had God over a barrel, committed to a Creation that was spoiled beyond possible redemption. But he believed his own Garden lie, and underestimated God's love for us. In Jesus God completely turned the tables, justified fallen man, and established the legal basis of the Kingdom that will never be overthrown.
 
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mpaper345

Banned
#17
Feb 9, 2010
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#17
God did make a covenant with Abraham,and Noah,but animal sacrifices were involved,in which kept them right with God.

I only see 2 covenants that really count.The Old Testament covenant of animal sacrifices that kept them right with God,and the New Testament with the blood of Jesus,in which the Old Testament saints had their sins washed away by that blood.

You can say that God made a covenant with Noah,and Abraham,but it is still God dealing with people who are obedient and make animal sacrifices,so I only see 2 covenants,Old Testament,animals,New Testament,the blood of Jesus.

God did the first animal sacrifice with Adam and Eve and can also be symbolic of a person who is living for God how they scantly clothe themselves,but God says you shall be fully clothed.

They sinned and scantly clothed themselves to hide their shame,but God said not so but you shall be fully clothed.

Matt
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#18
#18
mpaper345 said:
God did make a covenant with Abraham,and Noah,but animal sacrifices were involved,in which kept them right with God.

I only see 2 covenants that really count.The Old Testament covenant of animal sacrifices that kept them right with God,and the New Testament with the blood of Jesus,in which the Old Testament saints had their sins washed away by that blood.

You can say that God made a covenant with Noah,and Abraham,but it is still God dealing with people who are obedient and make animal sacrifices,so I only see 2 covenants,Old Testament,animals,New Testament,the blood of Jesus.

God did the first animal sacrifice with Adam and Eve and can also be symbolic of a person who is living for God how they scantly clothe themselves,but God says you shall be fully clothed.

They sinned and scantly clothed themselves to hide their shame,but God said not so but you shall be fully clothed.

Matt
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I do not believe that the death of an animal is sufficient to secure a covenant by God. The Bible says the covenant must be secured by the death of the testator. This is another reason to give glory to God for He has secured His covenants through the death of Jesus Christ.
 
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Logos57

Guest
#19
#19
IMO; yes there are many covenant mention in the Bible. But the Bible is centered on the Old Covenant (Old Testamant) and the New Covenant (New Covenant). Some could probably argued that the Abrahamic Covenant was actually the New Covenant of Faith (Galatians 3:14-18).

But yes for a Covenant to be an everlasting Covenant I believe that you have to have the Blood of God.
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that Great Shepherd of the Sheep, through the Blood of the everlasting Covenant.
(Hebrews 13:20; see also Acts 20:28).


As for the Mosiac Covenant/Old Testament/Law I believe the writer of Hebrews states that the Old will just faded away.
In that He saith, A New Covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13

For in Galatians 4:21-31 we read of Two Covenaants as Paul states that the one is earthly Jerusalem (which now is) these are any people who will justified themselves under the Old Testament, Law (Galatians 5:4), but the Second is the Jerusalem which is above, thee are the true believers in Christ who are justified by faith in Christ Jesus, which worketh by love (Galatians 5:5-6).

Just my personal opinion.
 
grace

grace

Senior Member
#20
Sep 8, 2006
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#20
charisenexcelcis said:
"For where a covenant is, there must be of necessity be the death of the testator (the one who made it). For a covenant is valid only when men have died, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives." Hebrews 9:16-17

Does that mean that in order for there to be a covenant between God and man, God must die? Does that mean that every covenant that God established was made valid by the death of Jesus on the cross?

What do you think?
Click to expand...

I know for us (man) to be fully in relationship with Christ, we must die to self. When we have unrepentant sin in our life, that is a wall up between us and God.
 
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