Jesus, being the form of God, said to Jews "you have not seen His form." Why?

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Mar 12, 2019
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#1
Jesus, being the form of God, standing in front of Jews, told them "you have not seen the form of the Father". (But He was standing in front of them) - John 5:37

Why did Jesus say that? Is he not the form of the Father?

reference:
John 5:37: "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Philippians 2:6: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Colossians 1:15: And
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,718
572
113
#2
Jesus, being the form of God, standing in front of Jews, told them "you have not seen the form of the Father". (But He was standing in front of them) - John 5:37

Why did Jesus say that? Is he not the form of the Father?

reference:
John 5:37: "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Philippians 2:6: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Colossians 1:15: And
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
Jesus told Philip if he has seen Him, he has seen the Father, and the words that He speaks are not His own, but the Father that dwells in Him, He does the works.

For Jesus is a visible image of God.

And Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and was conceived by the Spirit, which Jesus said the Spirit who is the Comforter will come to them, which Jesus said He will not leave them comfortless but come to them.

So the Jews did see a form of God for Jesus is a visible image of God in human form.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
Deu 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
Deu 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure.

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So Jesus meant that the Jews have not seen God in His invisible form.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
35,612
13,039
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#3
So Jesus meant that the Jews have not seen God in His invisible form.
Could Jesus have meant that they had not seen the Father because they were blind to the truth of Who He was?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,302
4,541
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#4
John 5:37

Jesus gives no indication that the Father has no form. He is saying here that He does indeed have a form. He teaches that He has a voice and shape.

The word "form" here is from the Greek eidos, which means, "form, shape, appearance, fashion." It is used in a context indicating what can be seen with the eye. That is what Jesus says, "You have not seen His form"—that is, with the eyes. He does not mean something visualized in the mind.

Luke 3:22 says, "And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form." Those who were there saw it with their eyes, and it had shape to it. Likewise, the Father has shape that is visible to the eyes and a voice that is audible to the ears.

John W. Ritenbaugh
Image and Likeness of God (Part 1)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,302
4,541
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#5
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

5:30-38 Our Lord returns to his declaration of the entire agreement between the Father and the Son, and declared himself the Son of God. He had higher testimony than that of John; his works bore witness to all he had said. But the Divine word had no abiding-place in their hearts, as they refused to believe in Him whom the Father had sent, according to his ancient promises. The voice of God, accompanied by the power of the Holy Ghost, thus made effectual to the conversion of sinners, still proclaims that this is the beloved Son, in whom the Father is well pleased. But when the hearts of men are full of pride, ambition, and the love of the world, there is no room for the word of God to abide in them.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#6
Jesus, being the form of God, standing in front of Jews, told them "you have not seen the form of the Father". (But He was standing in front of them) - John 5:37

Why did Jesus say that? Is he not the form of the Father?

reference:
John 5:37: "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Philippians 2:6: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Colossians 1:15: And
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.



John 14:

ܐܡܪ ܠܗ ܦܝܠܝܦܘܣ ܡܪܢ ܚܘܢ ܐܒܐ ܘܟܕܘ ܠܢ
8 Philipus {Philip} said unto Him, “Maran {Our Lord}, show us Aba {The Father}, and it is enough for us.”

ܐܡܪ ܠܗ ܝܫܘܥ ܗܢܐ ܟܠܗ ܙܒܢܐ ܥܡܟܘܢ ܐܢܐ ܘܠܐ ܝܕܥܬܢܝ ܦܝܠܝܦܐ ܡܢ ܕܠܝ ܚܙܐ ܚܙܐ ܠܐܒܐ ܘܐܝܟܢܐ ܐܢܬ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܬ ܚܘܢ ܐܒܐ
9 Eshu {Yeshua} said unto him, “I’m with you all this time, and you haven’t known Me Philipa {Philip}? Whoever sees Me, has seen Aba {The Father}, and how do you say, ‘Show us Aba {The Father}?’

^
Physical Image or Express Image of the Father




John 4:

ܐܠܐ ܐܬܝܐ ܫܥܬܐ ܘܗܫܐ ܐܝܬܝܗ ܐܡܬܝ ܕܣܓܘܕܐ ܫܪܝܪܐ ܢܣܓܕܘܢ ܠܐܒܐ ܒܪܘܚܐ ܘܒܫܪܪܐ ܐܦ ܐܒܐ ܓܝܪ ܕܐܝܟ ܗܠܝܢ ܗܘ ܣܓܘܕܐ ܒܥܐ
23 But, the hour comes, and now is, when The Shariyre Sagude {The True Worshipers} will bow down to Aba {The Father} in The Rukha {The Spirit} and also in The Shrara {The Truth}. For, Aba {The Father}, He seeks Sagude {Worshipers} like these.

ܪܘܚܐ ܗܘ ܓܝܪ ܐܠܗܐ ܘܐܝܠܝܢ ܕܣܓܕܝܢ ܠܗ ܒܪܘܚܐ ܘܒܫܪܪܐ ܘܠܐ ܕܢܣܓܕܘܢ
24 For, Alaha {God} is The Rukha {Spirit}, and those who bow down to Him, it is right that they should bow down in The Rukha {The Spirit} and in The Shrara {The Truth}.”

^
Spirit Form or Invisible Image of the Father




We can see the Father in 2 forms, 1 being the physical Image of the WORD, the other is Spirit.



Basically, Jesus is telling the Jews, they are BLIND, even when He was the physical Image to the Invisible Spirit Father (Express Image).
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#7
Jesus, being the form of God, standing in front of Jews, told them "you have not seen the form of the Father". (But He was standing in front of them) - John 5:37

Why did Jesus say that? Is he not the form of the Father?

reference:
John 5:37: "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Philippians 2:6: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Colossians 1:15: And
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
His Divinity is unseen. He gave signs
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,713
2,655
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#8
Exodus 33:20-23
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

I think this is what the Lord Jesus was talking about when He said you have not heard His Voice or seen His Form.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,527
9,996
113
#9
Jesus, being the form of God, standing in front of Jews, told them "you have not seen the form of the Father". (But He was standing in front of them) - John 5:37

Why did Jesus say that? Is he not the form of the Father?

reference:
John 5:37: "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Philippians 2:6: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Colossians 1:15: And
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
Read the rest of Philippians 2.
Tho He is God and had the form of God He made Himself of no reputation, taking on the form of an human, being born a man, under the law.

You simply cut your quote too short.
He set aside His glory and became as one of us, to redeem us.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
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#10
John 14:

ܐܡܪ ܠܗ ܦܝܠܝܦܘܣ ܡܪܢ ܚܘܢ ܐܒܐ ܘܟܕܘ ܠܢ
8 Philipus {Philip} said unto Him, “Maran {Our Lord}, show us Aba {The Father}, and it is enough for us.”

ܐܡܪ ܠܗ ܝܫܘܥ ܗܢܐ ܟܠܗ ܙܒܢܐ ܥܡܟܘܢ ܐܢܐ ܘܠܐ ܝܕܥܬܢܝ ܦܝܠܝܦܐ ܡܢ ܕܠܝ ܚܙܐ ܚܙܐ ܠܐܒܐ ܘܐܝܟܢܐ ܐܢܬ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܬ ܚܘܢ ܐܒܐ
9 Eshu {Yeshua} said unto him, “I’m with you all this time, and you haven’t known Me Philipa {Philip}? Whoever sees Me, has seen Aba {The Father}, and how do you say, ‘Show us Aba {The Father}?’

^
Physical Image or Express Image of the Father




John 4:

ܐܠܐ ܐܬܝܐ ܫܥܬܐ ܘܗܫܐ ܐܝܬܝܗ ܐܡܬܝ ܕܣܓܘܕܐ ܫܪܝܪܐ ܢܣܓܕܘܢ ܠܐܒܐ ܒܪܘܚܐ ܘܒܫܪܪܐ ܐܦ ܐܒܐ ܓܝܪ ܕܐܝܟ ܗܠܝܢ ܗܘ ܣܓܘܕܐ ܒܥܐ
23 But, the hour comes, and now is, when The Shariyre Sagude {The True Worshipers} will bow down to Aba {The Father} in The Rukha {The Spirit} and also in The Shrara {The Truth}. For, Aba {The Father}, He seeks Sagude {Worshipers} like these.

ܪܘܚܐ ܗܘ ܓܝܪ ܐܠܗܐ ܘܐܝܠܝܢ ܕܣܓܕܝܢ ܠܗ ܒܪܘܚܐ ܘܒܫܪܪܐ ܘܠܐ ܕܢܣܓܕܘܢ
24 For, Alaha {God} is The Rukha {Spirit}, and those who bow down to Him, it is right that they should bow down in The Rukha {The Spirit} and in The Shrara {The Truth}.”

^
Spirit Form or Invisible Image of the Father




We can see the Father in 2 forms, 1 being the physical Image of the WORD, the other is Spirit.



Basically, Jesus is telling the Jews, they are BLIND, even when He was the physical Image to the Invisible Spirit Father (Express Image).
The ministry of Christ was to give spiritual understanding or faith to the blind mankind and to make blind by the letter of the law those who say they see but see not.

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

It would seem the function of a apostle is misunderstood. They pronounce the word God puts on their lips . The living word the gospel performs the unseen work making it visible A work of faith.: "let there be".. the miracle is made known.
or the words in Acts 14 Christ put of Paul's lips the gospel . Stand upright on thy feet .Or again; "let there be" and he walked

Apostle = sent one. Any new meaning added to it destroys the use. It is self descriptive.

What you seen to support. That is the formula for creating gods in the likeness of men. Its what the unbelievers did with Paul an Barnabus. They attributed the miracle to the hands of the Apostles and not the gospel words that worked in the person . God is not a man (Acts 14;11)

We walk or understand God by faith. The unseen eternal it works in us . Not by looking at the temporal things. like the hands of the apostle's that where the mixing of faith the gospel begins. (Hebrew 4:1-4)

We look at Paul knowing he as corrupted mankind is not the source of faith( believing God). We then acknowledge the unseen as the one source.

Eternal Spirit does not have a literal face. Face to face in knowledge as it is written is faith to faith, as it works in us we can experience his aid that gives us rest.

2 Corinthians 4:18 a valuable tool when working to rightly divide. Using the things seen the temporal and mixing with the invisible things of God. Things of the faithful gospel
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
741
301
63
#11
Jesus, being the form of God, standing in front of Jews, told them "you have not seen the form of the Father". (But He was standing in front of them) - John 5:37

Why did Jesus say that? Is he not the form of the Father?

reference:
John 5:37: "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Philippians 2:6: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Colossians 1:15: And
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
John 5:37-39

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
KJV

Yes, God is just one God! But He has parts - often called, "Father, Son & Holy Ghost." Similarly, each human has 3 parts, body soul and spirit.
1 Thess 5:23

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV
Jesus was God come down in the form of human flesh. Yet He didn't look exactly as He did in heaven. In the John 5:7 passage, Jesus meant that these men had never known God at all in any form, because they resisted the truths of God's Word. They were religious, but were dead, spiritually, as it didn't come from their hearts. Jesus often described such men as being "hypocrites."

Phil 2:6

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
KJV
This passage, in other words, means that Jesus was not taking an unfair title, by claiming to be equal with God. It was no lie to say so, because that's what He was - God come down, but in the form of human flesh.
Col 1:15

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
KJV
This passage in Philippians, is just saying that He was God, but in the form of human flesh. What people saw, when they saw HIm, was HImself in fleshly form. God has always existed, and so existed before anything He created here on earth.
Col 1:15-17

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
KJV
The passage just demonstrates that both Jesus and the Father refer to the same one and only true God there is.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
741
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#12
Could Jesus have meant that they had not seen the Father because they were blind to the truth of Who He was?
True! His disciples had difficulty often - understanding just who Jesus was until later - I think - probably on the Day of Pentecost, following Jesus' ascension.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#13
God was seen by the people through Moses' words of God -
God was seen through Jesus Christ in His flesh -
His divinity was unseen, but exceptionally felt, until this very day...
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
741
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#14
True! But not until saints get to heaven, are they enabled to see God exactly as He looks in heaven.
Rev 22:5

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#15
God was seen by the people through Moses' words of God -
God was seen through Jesus Christ in His flesh -
His divinity was unseen, but exceptionally felt, until this very day...
God used Moses to represent the unseen presence of our father in heaven and used Aaron seen as High priest to represent the Son of man Jesus the temporal. Two working as one God.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,258
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#16
True! But not until saints get to heaven, are they enabled to see God exactly as He looks in heaven.
Rev 22:5

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV
Thank you for this reminder of reigning with our Lord. Tis is what the words making up Israel mean, Reigning with Elohanu, God. This is the Israel of our Father and Savior...
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
910
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#17
Jesus, being the form of God, standing in front of Jews, told them "you have not seen the form of the Father". (But He was standing in front of them) - John 5:37

Why did Jesus say that? Is he not the form of the Father?

reference:
John 5:37: "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Philippians 2:6: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Colossians 1:15: And
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
In the emphasis you employed by underlining, the d in "existed" stood out to me as key to the answer, especially considering He Was, Is, and Always Will Be, the Ever Present.
 
Jun 15, 2020
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#18
Jesus, being the form of God, standing in front of Jews, told them "you have not seen the form of the Father". (But He was standing in front of them) - John 5:37

Why did Jesus say that? Is he not the form of the Father?

reference:
John 5:37: "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Philippians 2:6: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Colossians 1:15: And
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
Good question.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
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#19
Jesus, being the form of God, standing in front of Jews, told them "you have not seen the form of the Father". (But He was standing in front of them) - John 5:37


The form of Him was not standing there. God is not a man . Jesus did the will of the father who dwelt in his earthen body of death just as in ours. If we attribute the work of the father to the Son then we have made Jesus a god in the likeness of men.

That kind of blasphemy was forgivable as long as the temporal earthen body of Christ was still here.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
741
301
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#20
Yes, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father, are all parts of the one and only true God there is, and who created the world and all things! We humans each have 3 separate parts to ourselves too: body, soul and spirit.
1 Thess 5:23

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV
When we die, our spirits become separated from our bodies. Our fleshly bodies die (Jesus' body died too). Our bodies decay in the ground. But spirits do not die. Our spirits (if we've sincerely accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord (God) go immediately up to heaven upon dying.
Phil 1:23-24

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
KJV
Paul here - was saying he knew that it would be more pleasant for Him to die and go to heaven - but that even so, he was willing to remain here on the earth, so that he could finish his work for God on the earth - which was that of being an apostle.
God's Spirit is here in the world, especially as a result of the great outpouring of God's Spirit, that took place on the day of Pentecost, that followed Jesus' ascension back to heaven (it took place about 1 month after HIs ascension). His Spirit communicates with people (trying to persuade them to accept Him as Lord and Savior), and much more so in the lives of those who serve God. God's Spirit is how God communicates with mankind. We don't see HIs spirit, but it exists. Similarly, we humans each have a spirit. We can communicate here on earth through our spirit as long as we are alive here on earth. It isn't often expressed in that way, but it is true that when absent from each other - we communicate through our spirits (in other words - since we aren't dead, there are still ways to communicate with others while absent from them, for example: (1) by letters, (2) by phone, or (3) by communicating through the internet, such as through social media like this forum.
Col 2:5

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
KJV

2 Cor 10:10-11

10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.
KJV

Col 2:6

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
KJV
I believe God's "Father part" - represents His decision-making part. Jesus was always careful to pray and rely on the Father's guidance in HIs life. We who serve God are also to do so - we are enabled to do so because of Jesus' death on the cross, which figuratively has"removed the middle partition" (partition - the curtain their used to be in the temple under the Old Covenant) - so that we can come into the Father's presence, without fear, due to Jesus now being our mediator (the go-between between God and man).
Heb 4:16

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
KJV
We can address our prayers to God, by any of HIs names (Father, Jesus, Spirit) - I'm sure it's ok. I know of accounts of God's people's communication as using all of these terms in the Bible. All the terms refer to HIm as being one God, and one being. It's true that Jesus addressed His prayers to just "The Father" - but I think this was to be an example to us, in that He wasn't trusting HIs flesh to make decisions - rather, He was putting HIs full trust on His "Father part" - since it was His decision making part, and also wasn't wearing a fleshly body.
We humans have decision-making parts too - our minds and our hearts. Without them, we would be completely idle and useless. Our minds make decisions, and tell ourselves what to do in daily life.