Jesus: Both Son and Father?

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Jun 26, 2014
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#1
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We know that this is a prophecy of Jesus Christ who is the Son. This verse of scriptures calls him the everlasting Father. If the Father and the Son are separate, how can this be?
 

Stranger36147

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2015
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#2
The doctrine of the Trinity is that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same God. But, at the same time, they're also separate somehow.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#3
Father and Son are ONE in SPIRIT but not in BEING....Joh 10v30
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#5
Our Maker said to Moses "Tell them I am sent you." This is a tranlation of Yahweh, which may also be translated, I am that I am or even as the Self-Existing.

No matter, the truly All Mighty and Father of all who believe will manifest Himself as He sees fit, and He need not consult about this with His creatures. Those who are to become His children understand this.

Isaiah had told us directly that the Child born to the maiden or virgin would be called all three of the persons known to us of our Maker.

Yahweh tells us in more ways when He declares "I am your Husband." He declares "I am your Savior." He declares "I am your King." Perhaps the words are not exact here , but the meanings are exact.

God is One.....do not pretend to understand this mystery yet, but do not deny it. He is good all of the time, so there is nothing to fret about concerning this.........all is to be revealed by our Father.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#6
The just shall live by faith Is not only talking about salvation but Its also talking about our walk,so then trying to explain GOD and the SON are the same to the flesh IMO can only be done where It would sound like speculation and might not sound like scripture.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#7
Jesus himself is not THE father, although in the Christian faith he shall be called "the everlasting father", but that does not make Jesus THE father.

Just as Abraham is called the the father of the faithful:

Rom 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.

Adam Clarke in his commentary states

The everlasting Father,
"The Father of the everlasting age" - Or עד אבי Abi ad, the Father of eternity.

This makes much sense and avoids the confusion that is part of your opening post.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#8
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We know that this is a prophecy of Jesus Christ who is the Son. This verse of scriptures calls him the everlasting Father. If the Father and the Son are separate, how can this be?
In Hebrew, the primary meaning of שְׁמ֜וֺ 'His name' is authority NOT appelation [what someone is called]. The intent here is that Jesus was predicted to have the same authority as the Father. This is NOT saying that they are identical.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
12,503
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#9
The third person possesive , His Name may also be translated as His Reputation........

I tend to believe His Reputation and His Authority are more on the spot that the word, name, since Zephaniah has
foretold we would all receive a pure tongue and call upon Him by one Name.....

As for what we consider a name in this age, we do not nor ever will know His name until this prophecy is fulfilled. This is what I have been given to believe, and I am afraid it suits me just well and fine unti I am given otherwise by His Holy Spirit.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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#10
Jesus himself is not THE father, although in the Christian faith he shall be called "the everlasting father", but that does not make Jesus THE father.

Just as Abraham is called the the father of the faithful:

Rom 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.

Adam Clarke in his commentary states

The everlasting Father,
"The Father of the everlasting age" - Or עד אבי Abi ad, the Father of eternity.

This makes much sense and avoids the confusion that is part of your opening post.
So if i understand your post correctly, you are stating that Abraham is not actually the Father of the faithful. He is called that and the bible says he is that but he isn't really the father of the faithful. So you are saying that the scripture has lied to us? Calling Abraham something that he really is not? And calling Jesus something that he really is not?

Following your logic, we may also presume that Jesus is not Wonderful, he is not the Counselor, he is not the mighty God, nor is he the Prince of Peace. He is being called these things, but apparently, he really isn't any of them at all. Correct?

I'm sorry, but that is direct contradiction to what the bible is saying.


[QUOTEIn Hebrew, the primary meaning of [FONT=&quot]שְׁמ֜וֺ[/FONT] 'His name' is authority NOT appelation [what someone is called]. The intent here is that Jesus was predicted to have the same authority as the Father. This is NOT saying that they are identical.][/QUOTE]

If the Father and Son were separate but equal in authority already before Jesus came to earth, why would his authority be compared to that of the Father?
 

Enoch987

Senior Member
Jul 13, 2017
294
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#11
In Hebrew, the primary meaning of שְׁמ֜וֺ 'His name' is authority NOT appelation [what someone is called]. The intent here is that Jesus was predicted to have the same authority as the Father. This is NOT saying that they are identical.
Chuck Missler agrees. He says that Father in eternity (in the new Jerusalem when God and Lamb sit on the throne) is a better translation.
 

Enoch987

Senior Member
Jul 13, 2017
294
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#12
So if i understand your post correctly, you are stating that Abraham is not actually the Father of the faithful. He is called that and the bible says he is that but he isn't really the father of the faithful. So you are saying that the scripture has lied to us? Calling Abraham something that he really is not? And calling Jesus something that he really is not?

Following your logic, we may also presume that Jesus is not Wonderful, he is not the Counselor, he is not the mighty God, nor is he the Prince of Peace. He is being called these things, but apparently, he really isn't any of them at all. Correct?

I'm sorry, but that is direct contradiction to what the bible is saying.


[QUOTEIn Hebrew, the primary meaning of שְׁמ֜וֺ 'His name' is authority NOT appelation [what someone is called]. The intent here is that Jesus was predicted to have the same authority as the Father. This is NOT saying that they are identical.]
If the Father and Son were separate but equal in authority already before Jesus came to earth, why would his authority be compared to that of the Father?[/QUOTE]

Paul always calls the Father God and Jesus Lord and Christ in all of the openings of his epistles. First John says that unless you believe in the Father and the Son, you are antichrist. John's gospel in chapter 5 agrees with the Jews who heard Jesus say that He was equal to the Father in John 5. Jesus said that He was the Son. The Jews accused him of blasphemy.

Paul gets the openings to his epistles from the old testament. YHWH God of hosts and YHWH of hosts are 2 separate persons but both YHWH. Isaiah 7-10.

In Isaiah 48, the God of Israel is the first and last as is Jesus is Revelation.
God predicts his chosen servant. Luke 9:35, God calls Jesus His chosen Son.
The Creeds don't know what to do with the chosen part of the equation.
Could God have chosen another Being?
I conclude the Creeds and the Bible are correct.
If you argue against Jesus as chosen then you argue against the Bible.
If I argue against the Creeds than I'm a heretic.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
23,391
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#13
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We know that this is a prophecy of Jesus Christ who is the Son. This verse of scriptures calls him the everlasting Father. If the Father and the Son are separate, how can this be?
I am both a daughter and a mother, though nether of them are in relation to you. The terms denote relationship, as do niece, aunt, friend, foe, cousin, in-law, etc.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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#14
[QUOTE
Originally Posted by MarcR
In Hebrew, the primary meaning of [FONT=&quot]שְׁמ֜וֺ 'His name' is authority NOT appelation [what someone is called]. The intent here is that Jesus was predicted to have the same authority as the Father. This is NOT saying that they are identical.

[/FONT]

Chuck Missler agrees. He says that Father in eternity (in the new Jerusalem when God and Lamb sit on the throne) is a better translation.][/QUOTE]

So by this definition then, the scripture reads as follows:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The Father in eternity, The Prince of Peace.

This statement would prove my point. Jesus Christ is the Father in eternity. It is the Father that manifested himself in the flesh of Jesus Christ. (See 1 Tim 3:16)
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
3,724
41
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#15
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We know that this is a prophecy of Jesus Christ who is the Son. This verse of scriptures calls him the everlasting Father. If the Father and the Son are separate, how can this be?
You should find This blog I did helpful...
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
171
0
#16
So if i understand your post correctly, you are stating that Abraham is not actually the Father of the faithful. He is called that and the bible says he is that but he isn't really the father of the faithful. So you are saying that the scripture has lied to us? Calling Abraham something that he really is not? And calling Jesus something that he really is not?

Following your logic, we may also presume that Jesus is not Wonderful, he is not the Counselor, he is not the mighty God, nor is he the Prince of Peace. He is being called these things, but apparently, he really isn't any of them at all. Correct?

I'm sorry, but that is direct contradiction to what the bible is saying.


[QUOTEIn Hebrew, the primary meaning of שְׁמ֜וֺ 'His name' is authority NOT appelation [what someone is called]. The intent here is that Jesus was predicted to have the same authority as the Father. This is NOT saying that they are identical.]
If the Father and Son were separate but equal in authority already before Jesus came to earth, why would his authority be compared to that of the Father?[/QUOTE]

Because during His earthly ministry, Jesus was fully human. Human beings DO NOT usually have the authority of GOD.
When Isaiah prophesied about the coming Messiah, He was inspired to alert us to the fact that the Messiah, though Human, would have the authority of God to forgive sin, heal, raise the dead, command the wind, etc.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,527
227
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Texas
#17
If the Father and Son were separate but equal in authority already before Jesus came to earth, why would his authority be compared to that of the Father? Because during His earthly ministry, Jesus was fully human. Human beings DO NOT usually have the authority of GOD. When Isaiah prophesied about the coming Messiah, He was inspired to alert us to the fact that the Messiah, though Human, would have the authority of God to forgive sin, heal, raise the dead, command the wind, etc.
Marc, I don't know anything about Hebrew. Could it possibly be translated as "Father of eternity?"
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,932
278
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#18
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We know that this is a prophecy of Jesus Christ who is the Son. This verse of scriptures calls him the everlasting Father. If the Father and the Son are separate, how can this be?
Septuagint has "Father of the age to come".