Jesus: Both Son and Father?

MattG · Mar 9, 2018

Where in the bible can I find God the son, God the holy spirit, God the Father written in scripture?

I just say there is God, God's Word, God's Spirit.

God's Word was manifested in flesh, named Jesus Christ.

God was with us by His Spirit, in and through His Son Jesus Christ, who is our Lord and Saviour, and is the Son of God.

The Father, and the Word (Son) are both one in, Purpose/ Reason/ Unity.

The Father, the Word, The Holy spirit are all in One, Purpose/ Reason/ Unity.[HR][/HR]
1 John 5:7 reads: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Anyway. Was just curios if I could also find, where it says God is a person, and the Holy spirit a person too because God is a spirit, and the holy spirit is a spirit even if the bible does omit 'he' for the context of the spirit.

It's funny how we will talk about these topics, yet we are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and are all saved no matter how you believe in this concept...

Lol.

God bless, in Jesus Christ name, amen.

KJV1611 · Mar 9, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Ok if you say so lol.

truthrevelation · Mar 9, 2018

apostolic862004 said:

watch resurection uncovered you tube new revelation from God from the bible

bluto · Mar 9, 2018

MattG said:

Hi matt! How did you arrive at your statement here? "I just say there is God, God's Word, God's Spirit. God's Word was manifested in flesh named Jesus Christ." You arrived at it by reading the Bible and employing deductive reasoning. You will not find the exact phrase "God the Son." It is "deduced" from reading the Bible. You will not also find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus says the exact words, "I am God."

Now I've debated people who ask the question of why did not Jesus just come out and say, "I am God?" First of all if He had they still would not believe Him. Secondily, if He had the Jews (and rightly so) would have jumped all over Him because it would mean that there is more than one God.

So what did Jesus do? He left it up to us to come to the right conclusion as to His identity with the help of His Father and the Holy Spirit. The most important question to ask is what Jesus said to His disciples at Matthew 16:13-17. Vs13 Jesus ask them, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" They gave Him answers at vs14 but Jesus said, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter said at vs16, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." I want you to notice something about Peter's statement. Peter is saying two things, (1) You are the Christ/Messiah and (2) the Son of God." These two things will come into play later on in the gospel John.

Now, the following is what I wrote the other day to a poster here named carl who believes that Jesus is really God the Father. In other words to him the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct persons. Here goes, and if you have any questions please ask.

Come on carl, why would you depend on diagrams? The truth be known no diagram or explanation can replace studying your Bible. The purpose of the diagrams and explanations is to explain the Trinty. I'll give you an example. The Trinity is like water. Water can be in the form of ice, and it can be in the form of steam. Or the Trinity is like a three leaf clover. Three leaves represent the Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet the clover itself is one clover.

I'm going to post what I said to apostolic yesterday who is a oneness pentecostal who believes (like you) that Jesus is God the Father, He is NOT God the Father but God the Son. Please read my explnation which is from the Bible. If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them.

You know apostolic you have said on a couple occasions that you are not a Modalist. Yet you just said above, "I do however believe that the titles, Father, Son and Holy Ghost Or (Holy Spirit) however you prefer it refer to three different "ASPECTS" of God's relationship to humanity." The following is the definition of "Modalism."

mod·al·ism
ˈmodlˌizəm/
noun
noun: modalism

1.
Theology
the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature.

Now pay attention because this is important. The Bible "DOES NOT" identify God by "modes, roles, or aspects. The Bible does identify God by (1) His names, (2) His titles, (3) His unique attributes, (4) His unique actions, (5) His worship. I am not aware of any other literary, contextual means by which the Bible clearly identifies God. I could be wrong, but I am confident this list is comprehensive and your more than welcome to add to the list, this goes for anybody else.

The doctrine of the trinity cannot be understood, argued or refuted by appealing to any single passage in the Bible. That is because it is a systematic theology in the proper sense of the term "theology" the "study" or knowledge" of God, and is drawn from the whole Bible, as any valid systematic theology should be. It is the doctrin that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible, and is necessarily drawn from a harmonization of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be undetstood from a view that accounts for ALL of the Bible.

If you will examine the Bible thoroughly you should be able to quickly discover that there are three and ONLY three "persons" who are identified as God by the COMBINATION of the literary means I listed above. These persons are variously ...

1) CALLED by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly of indirectly....usually both. We already know God the Father is called God, YHWH, and Lord. Jesus is called God and Lord. The Holy Spirit is identified or called God at Acts 5:3,4.

2) RECOGNIZED with the TITLES of God, (Lord, King, Savior, Redeemer, etc.)

3) ATTRIBUTED with UNIQUE characteristics of God, (creation, orgin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation. The Holy Spirit is identified at Genesis 1:2 as "moving over the waters."

4) CREDITED with the UNIQUE characteristics of God (omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscient, eternality, etc.)

5) WORSHIPED and/or given the honor, reverence and position due to GOD ALONE.

Keep in mind I am not saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of thes 5. Nor am I saying that each person of the tirntiy is represented equally by ALL FIVE of these means of identifying God.

I am saying that:
1) that each person of the trinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above and
2) ONLY the three persons of the trinity receive some COMBINATION of these 5 literaly means.

For example, the Bible does not call anyone "God" (in the proper sense--meaning THE one and only God to whom it does not attribute the UNIQUE actions and UNIQUE attributes of God. I think you get my point and remember, theology is not salvation. It is in Christ that we find God fully and sufficiently manifested to us human beings, AS a human being and for His own glory. And it is only through His Holy Spirit that we can know Him and be saved by His grace. Any questions?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

MattG · Mar 9, 2018

Brother Bluto, I thank you for taking the time to explain as much as you have to us here in the ChristianChat Forum, but does what I believe make me someone who believes in modalism because if I express how I see it, does it really matter how it is I view it, even to God? I guess this is my only question I have.

I know that there was Times when God came as a cloud, and the cloud covered God up so He wouldn't destory every thing around Him.

That is why I can see God being in Christ Jesus, and being with us, by God's Spirit, I see that when Christ Jesus was being baptized with John the baptist and Him seeing the holy spirit fall on Jesus Christ like a dove.

MattG · Mar 9, 2018

I believe that Jesus Christ was God with us, no doubt. It's just I express it differently than others, I suppose.

bluto · Mar 9, 2018

MattG said:

You more than welcome matt. No, I am not accusing you of being a "Modalist." my post was to carl who contradicted himself in some of his statements. He believes Jesus Christ is the person of God the Father. My "trick knee" tells me he is confused more than he is a true "Modalist." The following is what a real dogmatic oneness pentecostal believes. who I debated years agao, "Jesus is the Word, the God, the flesh, the Spirit, the man, the Father, the Son, the Alpha & Omega, the Lord God Almighty, HE IS ALL!" Some of what he said is true, but it falls apart on many, many levels.

And yes, it is true that God is in Jesus Christ because that is what 2 Corinthians 5:19 states, "namely, that God was in Christ reconcilling the world to Himself." And btw, the wof teachers love to cease on 2 Corinthinans 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." So how can they teach that Jesus Christ went into hell and was tortured by Satan and his minions until finally God the Father "bellowed" out "Enough" and then Jesus was born again and defeated Satan?

My point is this, since God is IN CHRIST reconcilling the world to Himself/God, this happened on the cross, not in hell. Finally, as a side note, did you know Jesus Christ is physically seen in the Old Testament before His incarnation as a man?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Deade · Mar 9, 2018

He said I am God right here: John 8:58: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." You get any plainer than that.

The Jews agreed: John 8:59: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." They were ready to stone Him.

bluto · Mar 9, 2018

Deade said:

Yes I know deade but I'm talking about people that ask where did Jesus use the exact words, "I am God." We know that when He said "I am" He was referring to Exodus 2:14 and the Jews themselves knew what Jesus meant but some of these people (like the unitarians, christadelphians or the jw's) are incapable of thinking things through like you and I.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

MattG · Mar 9, 2018

bluto said:

Fair enough bluto friend in Christ Jesus.

No I do not believe what you are saying about this, because I do not believe it is true, maybe shadows and types, but Jesus Christ did not come until the Word was manifested into Flesh.

Sister Deade, in context of John 8:59 : Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

What is being expressed here to me, is what Jesus Christ had said before saying this, people like to relate that he Said I am to what is said back in Exodus.

But if you look in context Jesus Christ was telling them that He was from above.

23 Jesus continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You belong to this world; I do not.24 That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I claim to be,[e] you will die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they demanded.
Jesus replied, “The one I have always claimed to be.[f] 26 I have much to say about you and much to condemn, but I won’t. For I say only what I have heard from the one who sent me, and he is completely truthful.” 27 But they still didn’t understand that he was talking about his Father.

So basically, if you do not believe I am the one who, (the messiah the Son of God) was sent from the one above you will die in your sins.

Not knocking you or anything just expressing from my own view of the context just a bit expounding a bit more. How else could he have knew about Abraham, because He was God's Word (That created all things), with God Himself, before ever becoming flesh.

bluto · Mar 9, 2018

MattG said:

Don't worry matt, I know your not knocking me and I'm glad to see your thinking things through and openminded to learn. Now, as I said Jesus physically appeared in the OT before He incarnated as a man. Remember how I said in my other post about "deductive reasoning?" So don't be so sure that I'm wrong about this, again, keep an open mind. I'm going to make this short by asking you a couple of questions because there's a ton of evidence that Jesus appeared in the OT.

Jesus Himself said at John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any tim, NOR SEEN HIS FORM" And keep in mind matt, that Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" physical manifestion of God. At John 14:9, "Jesus says, He who has seen Me has seen the Father." This "DOES NOT MEAN JESUS CHRIST IS GOD THE FATHER." I want to be clear about that.

Now, look at Genesis 17:1,2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord APPEARED to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." Since God the Father cannot be seen, who physically appeared to Abraham?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

posthuman · Mar 9, 2018

He is the express image of the invisible God

a thing may appear lower-dimensional not because it is its true nature, but because you are only able to see a projection of it.

Deade · Mar 9, 2018

How do you explain this Matt?

1 Cor. 10:1-4: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

Magenta · Mar 9, 2018

Deade said:

I was thinking about this recently in regards to the threads on water baptism, wondering why there are no threads about being baptized in the cloud

Nehemiah6 · Mar 9, 2018

Magenta said:

It was not an actual baptism but a metaphorical "immersion" in the pillar of cloud during the passage of the Israelites through the Red Sea (on dry land).

And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them... And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. (Exodus 14:19,22).

When the pillar of cloud moved from in front of the Israelites to behind them, they would have been temporarily "immersed" in that cloud.

Magenta · Mar 9, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

It was not an actual baptism but a metaphorical "immersion" in the pillar of cloud during the passage of the Israelites through the Red Sea (on dry land).

And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them... And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. (Exodus 14:19,22).

When the pillar of cloud moved from in front of the Israelites to behind them, they would have been temporarily "immersed" in that cloud.

They were immersed in the cloud, but not a drop of water from the sea wet them.

carl11 · Mar 9, 2018

bluto said:

Well I’m glad you are seeing the light that I do not represent modalism, albeit it may appear that way at times but nope. Confused no, like I said I just see it differently.

MattG · Mar 10, 2018

bluto said:

I understand you bluto, yet

How can this be... if the Word was never manifested into flesh until, it was manifested in flesh...

In the bible when it says LORD it means Jehovah, not Lord as in Jesus Christ...

So I won't pretend like I understand how this is possible, is the really something allegorical ?

So Jehovah appeared to Abram, saying I'm God Almighty, walk before me and be blameless.

YLT Genesis 17: And Abram is a son of ninety and nine years, and Jehovah appeareth unto Abram, and saith unto him, 'I am God Almighty, walk habitually before Me, and be thou perfect;

but instead we are trying to say Genesis And Abram is a son of ninety and nine years, and the Lord Jesus Christ appeareth unto Abram, and saith unto him, 'I am God Almighty, walk habitually before Me, and be thou perfect;

How can we say which is right ?

Leaves me a little dead inside about the whole situation because I'm always going to believe, that Jesus Christ, was only Jesus Christ, when the Word was manifest in flesh. I'm not God, God does has He does I reckon, as long as your faith resides in the Lord Jesus Christ I guess these things are miner minor in comparison to fully understanding anyway, which is why I posted what I did in the first place before all of this went this far.

So I'm okay with never understanding it, and just enjoy the somber blissfulness we can have in having an relationship with the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, because that is what it is always going to be about, and to Love others.

Thanks for the conversation, I can't answer you any further than what I have conceived thus far.

God bless friends in Christ Jesus.

Thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ, and everything He done for the entire world

Noose · Mar 10, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

I got the meanings from the scriptures:
Son of God means one without sin or one who is justified. Jesus was referred to as son of God early in His life here on earth. We are also given the right to be called sons of God when we are justified. Adam was also called son of God because there was a time that he was blameless before disobeying God. Angels have been called sons of God because they are blameless.

Jesus started to call Himself son of man when they started to falsely accuse Him- this is the time He carried the baggage of the world. He was eventually killed because of false accusations.

Jesus always referred to His coming back after death and resurrection as the son of man coming with the clouds or with power & glory. So we can tell that these signify stages in salvation journey.

bluto · Mar 10, 2018

MattG said:

matt, matt, matt, why are you giving up so soon? Remember, I ask you a very specific question which was since God the Father cannot be seen and Genesis 17:1,2 says the Lord God Almighty appeared to Abraham, who physically appeared to Abraham? This is not a trick question? It's a legitimate Bible question.

So I will lay it out another way. At Genesis 16:7 it says, "Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. I'm going to give you the short version instead of typing all the rest of the verses at Genesis 16:7-15. Vs9, Then the angel of the Lord said to her, Return to your mistress and submit yourself to her authority. (Oh yea, the angel of the Lord is talking with Hagar, and her mistress is Sarah, Abraham's wife).

Vs10, Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too man to count." Jumping down to vs13, "The she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees;" for she said, HAVE I EVEN REMAINED ALIVE HERE AFTER SEEING HIM." So here's more detailed question I will ask you?

Is the being who said he will multiply Hagar's descendants the same being who said "I am God Almighty at Genesis 17:12 that will multiply Abraham's descendants? Now, I already know what you thinking? It was an angel that talked with Hagar and the same angel talked with Abraham. I will tell you right now the "angel" of the Lord is "NOT" an angel like Michael or Gabriel. The word "angel" in the Hebrew which is "malak" can mean a real angel but it can also mean "messenger." How the word "malak" is used depends on the context. What say you?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Jesus: Both Son and Father?

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