Jesus: Both Son and Father?

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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#21
[QUOTE
Originally Posted by MarcR
In Hebrew, the primary meaning of שְׁמ֜וֺ 'His name' is authority NOT appelation [what someone is called]. The intent here is that Jesus was predicted to have the same authority as the Father. This is NOT saying that they are identical.



Chuck Missler agrees. He says that Father in eternity (in the new Jerusalem when God and Lamb sit on the throne) is a better translation.]
So by this definition then, the scripture reads as follows:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The Father in eternity, The Prince of Peace.

This statement would prove my point. Jesus Christ is the Father in eternity. It is the Father that manifested himself in the flesh of Jesus Christ. (See 1 Tim 3:16)
It doesn't prove anything - there is a "distinction" between THE Father and Yahweh in the scriptures - Jesus is Yahweh of the Old Testament manifest in the flesh in his days on earth.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#22
Jesus never stopped being the Father. God inhabits eternity and God inhabits all of eternity in a continuous fashion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#23
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We know that this is a prophecy of Jesus Christ who is the Son. This verse of scriptures calls him the everlasting Father. If the Father and the Son are separate, how can this be?
There is no question that the designation of Christ as "the everlasting Father" presents some serious theological issues. Since there is only one GOD THE FATHER, and the Son is distinct from Him, this term must be interpreted as something other than Christ being both Father and Son. No one seems to have an adequate explanation for this anomalous title. Perhaps the nearest interpretation would be that Jesus is the Father of the "new creation", which includes the "new creatures" in Christ -- the children of God (whose Father is God the Father).
 
Jun 26, 2014
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#24
There is no question that the designation of Christ as "the everlasting Father" presents some serious theological issues. Since there is only one GOD THE FATHER, and the Son is distinct from Him, this term must be interpreted as something other than Christ being both Father and Son. No one seems to have an adequate explanation for this anomalous title. Perhaps the nearest interpretation would be that Jesus is the Father of the "new creation", which includes the "new creatures" in Christ -- the children of God (whose Father is God the Father).
Or perhaps, as is consistent with all of scripture, God the Father is the one who was manifested in the man Jesus Christ. In which case this scripture makes sense. When you understand that there is only one God, the Father, then you understand that in order for Jesus Christ to have been both God and man, the Father had to be inside of him. This is exactly what Jesus told Philip in John 14. This also explains the prophecy in Isaiah 35 that Israel's God would come and save them, and when he came, he would open blind eyes, open deaf ears, heal the lame etc. When did all of that happen? When Jesus came. Jesus is the Almighty God! As is stated in Isaiah 9:6 and as Jesus himself said in Revelation 1:8

Perhaps the nearest interpretation would be that Jesus is the Father of the "new creation", which includes the "new creatures" in Christ -- the children of God (whose Father is God the Father).
I do believe that Jesus is the father of the "new creation" as you put it, but the word of God in several places also lets us know that he is the father of the "old creation" or the "current creation as well.

John 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

Hebrews 1:10 - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

Colossians 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

*Please don't say i am pulling these scriptures out of context simply because I did not post the whole chapter that they are contained in. I am trusting that as we discuss these scriptures, you read them in context to get the point that i am making.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#26
You have so many problems with your KJV...
That is simply a RIDICULOUS comment. This has nothing to do with the KJV at all. Every Bible translation has the same title -- Everlasting Father or Eternal Father.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,461
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#27
...in order for Jesus Christ to have been both God and man, the Father had to be inside of him.
That is quite incorrect. There is nothing in Scripture to back up such a view. And John 1:1-3 makes it quite clear that the Word was WITH God (meaning two distinct Divine Persons) and the Word was also God (meaning Christ was God the Word from before creation, apart from God the Father).
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#28
That is simply a RIDICULOUS comment. This has nothing to do with the KJV at all. Every Bible translation has the same title -- Everlasting Father or Eternal Father.
Why is that you keep proclaiming some of them are "corrupt" then eh?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#29
That is simply a RIDICULOUS comment. This has nothing to do with the KJV at all. Every Bible translation has the same title -- Everlasting Father or Eternal Father.
Septuagint has "Father of the age to come".

Sorry.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#30
How is that you keep proclaiming some of them are "corrupt" then eh?
Let's not get off on a tangent after that ridiculous comment by Trophimus. Apparently he was implying that there was problem with the KJB and that is why "everlasting Father" is found in that verse. But since every translation has the same title, why don't YOU tell us exactly what it means without violating the meaning of the triune Godhead?
 
Jun 26, 2014
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#31
That is quite incorrect. There is nothing in Scripture to back up such a view. And John 1:1-3 makes it quite clear that the Word was WITH God (meaning two distinct Divine Persons) and the Word was also God (meaning Christ was God the Word from before creation, apart from God the Father).
So you are saying that the Father is God, and Jesus is God, but they are seperate from each other. No matter how you slice that, you have two Gods.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This verse very clearly states that the one God that exists is the Father. If you say that the Father was not in the Son, yet the Son was God, you are clearly saying there is more than one God.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,901
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#32
That is simply a RIDICULOUS comment. This has nothing to do with the KJV at all. Every Bible translation has the same title -- Everlasting Father or Eternal Father.
Septuagint
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder, and his name is called the messenger of great counsel, wonderful counsellor, mighty God, potentate, prince of peace, father of the age to come.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Young's Literal Translation
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#33
Septuagint has "Father of the age to come".

Sorry.
And only the Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims translation follows this. The Hebrew word isאֲבִיעַ֖ד (aviad) which is translated as everlasting or eternal. The "ages to come" is an interpretation, not a translation.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,282
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#34
Let's not get off on a tangent after that ridiculous comment by Trophimus. Apparently he was implying that there was problem with the KJB and that is why "everlasting Father" is found in that verse. But since every translation has the same title, why don't YOU tell us exactly what it means without violating the meaning of the triune Godhead?
Your lack of understanding it seems to be the problem rather than the KJV. It's quite straightforward. It's glorious! The fullness of God is in the man Jesus to which the Holy Spirit testifies. Jesus is God the Father incarnate. John 10:30
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,461
391
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#35
Septuagint
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder, and his name is called the messenger of great counsel, wonderful counsellor, mighty God, potentate, prince of peace, father of the age to come.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Young's Literal Translation
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
These are all INTERPRETATIONS. The text simply has אֲבִיעַ֖ד and even the word Father is not there.

כִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמֹ֑ו וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמֹ֜ו פֶּ֠לֶא יֹועֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבֹּ֔ור אֲבִיעַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום׃
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#36
Your lack of understanding it seems to be the problem rather than the KJV. It's quite straightforward. It's glorious! The fullness of God is in the man Jesus to which the Holy Spirit testifies. Jesus is God the Father incarnate. John 10:30
The language of John 1 does not agree. The Greek is clear. They are presented as two separate persons.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,901
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#37
And only the Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims translation follows this. The Hebrew word isאֲבִיעַ֖ד (aviad) which is translated as everlasting or eternal. The "ages to come" is an interpretation, not a translation.
Its a known fact that Septuagint was a precise translation of another line of Hebrew text, different from the masoretic one.

So, its very probable that the word was not "aviad" in that text.

And again, its shown that masoretic text postulate some conflicts with Christianity.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,461
391
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#38
Your lack of understanding it seems to be the problem rather than the KJV. It's quite straightforward. It's glorious! The fullness of God is in the man Jesus to which the Holy Spirit testifies. Jesus is God the Father incarnate. John 10:30
Wow! My lack of understanding? And then you suggest that Jesus is God the Father? Are you a Modalist, or what?

Given the fact that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are THREE distinct Divine Persons, how should we interpret John 10:30 -- I and my Father are one?

It cannot mean that they are the same person. But it can mean that they are in absolute unity within the Godhead, that they are both God, co-equal and co-eternal, and that even though Jesus said that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, it indicates that He is the PERFECT REPRESENTATION of the Father. That is well stated in Hebrews 1:3, which also tells us that they are two distinct Divine Persons:

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

This is why Jesus said that the anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father -- not literally -- since NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD THE FATHER. But Christ is the absolutely perfect image of the Father in every way.

BTW Modalism is heresy.
 
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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#39
I'm no Hebrew scholar - but the word translated as everlasting father is a compound of father and futurity:

אביעד Father of Futurity


ועדFuturity


אבי - Father
 
Last edited:
Aug 7, 2016
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#40
How ever you want to see it...


It doesn't bother me any.


Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and give thanks through Him to the Father in heaven.

Ephesians 5:19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your hearts to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.